How are these Great Beings explained?

[InvestigateTruth]

The aim & hope of Baha'ism is a World Government under their control. Of course Baha'is are political. Even if they affect neutrality in current political conditions; the aim of their religions is a political system where they are in control.

I think there is a misunderstanding with regards to future of Baha'i Faith. To say, Baha'is are after worldly power, it fundamentally contradicts with Bahaullah's teachings.

I quote Bahaullah:

"Know, therefore, O questioning seeker, that earthly sovereignty is of no worth, nor will it ever be, in the eyes of God and His chosen Ones"

 

[oldbadger]

You should quote directly from Baha'i Writings such written plans you are referring to.

I should not have to. You should have this deepset into your heart, soul and mind, so please don't send me away to harvest many many writings which you then will put to one side, I'm guessing?
After all, I am a Deist.
But Bahauallah wrote of Local, National and a Universal Houses of Justice, with guidances, controls, laws, and enforcements. His plane was for a Bahai World with a Bahai Government. He set out a theocracy.
And more recently I have discovered that his plan is predestined, and if human nature grabs hold of that as has happened in some Christian Creeds then a whole class system can be built to separate Bahai from 'the others'.
The western World, for all of its horrible failures, could not be worse than a Bahai World with its fundamentalist policies, beliefs and enforcements.

But the Western World is leaving Bahai far behind, with Equality Laws which stretch far beyond Bahauallah's.
To me, Bahai seems as if out-of-date already, only a couple of centuries into its plan.

 

[oldbadger]

You should quote directly from Baha'i Writings such written plans you are referring to.

Tell you what......... if you are prepared to put into writing thatr you never ever heard of, read about or knew about Bahauallah's local, national and universal houses of justice, his rules for a bahai only voting system, his guidances, controls, laws, enforcement and government plans, then I will undertake to teach you about them.


Fair enough?

 

[Vinayaka]

I think there is a misunderstanding with regards to future of Baha'i Faith.

I agree with this, but the misunderstanding lies in the Baha'i' adherents themselves.

 

[oldbadger]

I agree with this, but the misunderstanding lies in the Baha'i' adherents themselves.

Yes!
We see, most of us, what we want to see.
Bahais often 'parrot' the same old lines, again and again, without actually 'delving with determination' into the Bahai depths.
50 years ago many of the writings had not been translated and yet Bahai was growing without much knowledge of what those writings told.
I expect that all of the writings are now translated, but I do not know.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Your faith in it, sure, but there is no factual evidence it's even growing today.

We need objective evidence for that:

Growth of religion - Wikipedia

The Baha'i Faith has had one of the fastest growth rates of any religion in the last 100 years.

 

[Dawnofhope]

With all the Baha'i' exposure sites on line, all one can speculate is that where there's smoke, there's fire.

That's not saying a lot though. I'm sure there are many more anti-Hindu websites.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Wot...? Me...? 'onest ol' Badger they calls me.



Now, a Bahai who is only aware of the happy side of the Faith and who 'calls it' is purely honest.

But any who know the harder details and who might withold 'em in sweet camourflage, they could deserve another description entire.

You are presenting the Baha'i Faith as some Orwellian, dictatorial religious group. Yet membership in the Baha'i faith is entirely voluntary. How does that work?

 

[Vinayaka]

We need objective evidence for that:

Growth of religion - Wikipedia

The Baha'i Faith has had one of the fastest growth rates of any religion in the last 100 years.

Yes, but the problem with Baha'i' stats, is that the names of people who sign up aren't ever taken off. So in any community, all the inactive people, who may have only lasted 6 months after their membership card was granted, are still counted. So there is no way to truly count. That may be over the last 50 years or so.
This may well be true for other faiths. I know in small town Alberta, you have to go ask for your name to be taken off the membership list in some Christian churches. In Catholicism, I think you have to be excommunicated.

There well could be 5 active members, but 500 moved through. Nobody knows. It's well known on-line that Baha'i' love to extol their growth rate. and there's certainly no lack of evidence here on this thread.

But go ahead, keep repeating it, if it's somehow reassuring. I'm personally not buying.

This explains the difficulty somewhat. Clearly, such things on Wiki could be incorrect, as it's not unbiased.

Bahá'í statistics - Wikipedia

This pro-blog explains some difficulties as well.

I Love the Baha'i Faith, I Just Don't Like Statistics - Baha'i Blog

 

[Vinayaka]

That's not saying a lot though. I'm sure there are many more anti-Hindu websites.

Given our size, yes. Most Christian websites are anti-Hindu if they write anything at all about us. The official Baha'i' site is arguably as well. Usually though, it is far more common for individuals angry at a Guru to write a anti-Hindu-organisation blog. Many organisations are as large or larger than Baha'i'. It varies in quality as well. Some are just angry ranters, while others take stuff apart logically and systematically.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yes, but the problem with Baha'i' stats, is that the names of people who sign up aren't ever taken off. So in any community, all the inactive people, who may have only lasted 6 months after their membership card was granted, are still counted. So there is no way to truly count. That may be over the last 50 years or so.
This may well be true for other faiths. I know in small town Alberta, you have to go ask for your name to be taken off the membership list in some Christian churches. In Catholicism, I think you have to be excommunicated.

There well could be 5 active members, but 500 moved through. Nobody knows. It's well known on-line that Baha'i' love to extol their growth rate. and there's certainly no lack of evidence here on this thread.

But go ahead, keep repeating it, if it's somehow reassuring. I'm personally not buying.

It is hard to measure numbers of religious adherents. Just because someone isn't attending Baha'i activities does not mean they no longer consider themselves Baha'i. I do agree that there will be a number of people on our rolls that no longer consider themselves Baha'i.

The census conducted in my country every 5 years is well run and provides good corroborative evidence.

The number of Baha'is recorded on our annual report in 2015 was 2982 (I have our annual report in front of me). The number on the New Zealand census for 2013 was 2643. That's not much of a discrepancy.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Given our size, yes. Most Christian websites are anti-Hindu if they write anything at all about us. The official Baha'i' site is arguably as well.

Because we call Krishna a manifestation of God? Obviously you don't agree with that, but its hardly comparable to what the Christians say.

Usually though, it is far more common for individuals angry at a Guru to write a anti-Hindu-organisation blog. Many organisations are as large or larger than Baha'i'. It varies in quality as well. Some are just angry ranters, while others take stuff apart logically and systematically.

I don't mind and expect criticism of my religion, as long as its factually based and well considered. The half-truths, distortions, and out right lies are another story.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No matter what the horrific devastation might be, I cannot imagine the survivors of any haulocaust turning to Bahai, but that's from my point of view.

Where do you see them turning too, If it is not to an already peaceful fully functioning working System that embraces all peoples.

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

You are presenting the Baha'i Faith as some Orwellian, dictatorial religious group. Yet membership in the Baha'i faith is entirely voluntary. How does that work?

Easy!
1. Orwellian, YES. I base that upon the number of tenets that incorporate 'Double-Think'.
2. Orwellian, YES. I base that upon the lack of freedom that Bahais have to express themselves in published print, in as much as all documents or books for publication must first be approved by Bahai authorities.
3. Dictatorial, YES. The laws, guides and regs for Bahais are written, rather than dictated, but even so Bahais are required to obey a long list of rules and laws.
4. Religion. Yes.

Voluntary Membership. YES. But, so what?

I hate long posts, so let's just give one example for number 1 'Orwellian Double-Think' just to get going.

Ask an average Bahai if s/he could join a military or law enforcemrent service as a combatant and most will reply 'No!'
Now read this letter from the UHJ to a National Spiritual Assembly:-
-----------------------------------------------------
"Bahá'ís recognize the right and duty of governments to use force for the maintenance of law and order and to protect their people. Thus, for a Bahá'í, the shedding of blood for such a purpose is not necessarily essentially wrong.
Deleted irrelevant para..........
In the present condition of the world Bahá'ís try to keep themselves out of the internecine conflicts that are raging among their fellow men and to avoid shedding blood in such struggles, but this does not mean that we are absolute pacifists.

Letter from the Universal House of Justice, dated February 9, 1967, to a National Spiritual Assembly
----------------------------------------------

I don't go out of my way to post this stuff, only when I'm challenged, but the posts which Orwellian Double Think could go on quite a way.....

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Your faith in it, sure, but there is no factual evidence it's even growing today.

I have lived in places where it is expanding rapidly and still is.

Why in Iran they persecute and supress, in the midmost heart of the ocean, it Grows

God works in the most mysterious of ways.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

With all the Baha'i' exposure sites on line, all one can speculate is that where there's smoke, there's fire.

Many people make their own fires so they can admire what they have done.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yeah, I meant all the other sites, not that official Baha'i' site. There are always two sides to a story.

There is the lawful path and those that choose not to follow it to the extent they have choosen and the result given under that Law. It also means they have no heeded the advice given.

Each case is between them and the Law.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

It is hard to measure numbers of religious adherents. Just because someone isn't attending Baha'i activities does not mean they no longer consider themselves Baha'i. I do agree that there will be a number of people on our rolls that no longer consider themselves Baha'i.

The census conducted in my country every 5 years is well run and provides good corroborative evidence.

The number of Baha'is recorded on our annual report in 2015 was 2982 (I have our annual report in front of me). The number on the New Zealand census for 2013 was 2643. That's not much of a discrepancy.

Again, New Zealand is a small country, too small of a sample to be valid. World wide, most sites cite the total to be around 5 million, and that hasn't changed significantly since 1991. Of course I could be wrong. It is quite predictable that there would be growth for proseltysing religions.

 

[Vinayaka]

I have lived in places where it is expanding rapidly and still is

I can certainly understand that if a young pioneer couple heads off to some place where there is no Baha'i, people are disillusioned with Christianity, that the Baha'i' population there could triple in a matter of months.

(I actually don't understand why growth seems so important to people on this thread. It seems to be wired into the teachings, like economic growth is wired into capitalism.)

 

[Vinayaka]

Many people make their own fires so they can admire what they have done.

Did you miss the analogy?

Tony, are you familiar with the Hossain Danesh case here in Canada?