How are these Great Beings explained?

[oldbadger]

It's alright Badger .. You can be a "spiritualist" if you want to be.

As I hope that your Local, National and Universal Assemblies will try to be.

 

[oldbadger]

Not so! Not at all. We only deal with Baha'i issues in the jurisdiction we serve... that's it. In the future and that may mean centuries there may be "Houses of Justice" that will deal with more issues than we have today, but for now we are strictly and I mean the term quite literally we are "non-political"

But Arthra, I am referring to the future, in those centuries ahead, when Houses of Justice (in a Bahai World) would rule.

The best way to test or assess any religion is to try and guage what it would 'look like' if it controlled the World. Maybe Bahais would prefer to point in some other direction?

 

[arthra]

All these refer to the same thing? The beginning of Islam to the beginning of the Baha'i Faith? Do you agree? Is this more or less the official Baha'i interpretation of this part of the Book of Revelation? Thanks.

You're welcommen!
Most of these prophecies can be found in Messianic movements in the past.. We really don't quibble so much about prophecy. William Sears book "Thief in the Night" Thief in the Night is probably the best known among us for evaluating these prophecies. The important significances are already there if you take the historical movements in the early nineteenth century.

 

[arthra]

But Arthra, I am referring to the future, in those centuries ahead, when Houses of Justice (in a Bahai World) would rule.

The best way to test or assess any religion is to try and guage what it would 'look like' if it controlled the World. Maybe Bahais would prefer to point in some other direction?

And no one really has no idea of the far future. Even the term "controlling" the world may reveal more about your own apprehensions when "controlling" isn't in our expectations at all... A true world civilization that we envision has already begun... We have instant communication and that means response... For now no one controls that... We're ourselves responsible you and i ... Badger and Art.

 

[Dawnofhope]

No..... I don't know anything about the inner workings of Bahai

Thats good you admit that.

but I don't think that many Bahais do either.

Why wouldn't we?

 

[Dawnofhope]

"whenever it is recorded in the Holy Books that such a one was blind and recovered his sight, the meaning is that he was inwardly blind, and that he obtained spiritual vision,"

You've read how the healings are described in the NT... and the resurrection. If they were only symbolic, then the writers have misled people about Jesus being able to perform healing miracles and that God raised him from the dead. So the only thing Baha'is believe about the NT and the Jewish Bible is the Baha'i interpretation of it.

They were both literal and symbolic according to Abdul-Baha.

'The Manifestations of God are sources of miraculous deeds and marvellous signs. Any difficult or impossible matter is to Them possible and permitted. For They show forth extraordinary feats through an extraordinary power, and They influence the world of nature through a power that transcends nature. From each one of Them, marvellous things have appeared.'

'These outward miracles are of no importance to the followers of truth. For example, if a blind man is made to see, in the end he will again lose his sight, for he will die and be deprived of all his senses and faculties. Thus, causing the blind to see is of no lasting importance, since the faculty of sight is bound to be lost again in the end. And if a dead body be revived, what is gained thereby, since it must die again? What is important is to bestow true insight and everlasting life, that is, a spiritual and divine life; for this material life will not endure and its existence is tantamount to non-existence. Even as Christ said in reply to one of His disciples: “let the dead bury their dead”; for “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”'

Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

 

[Dawnofhope]

A person lives a spiritually "dead" life, where do they go?

Since the bulk of people in the world aren't all good or bad, do they all end up at the same place?

'The mysteries of which man is heedless in the earthly world, those will he discover in the heavenly world, and there will he be informed of the secrets of the truth; how much more will he recognize or discover persons with whom he has been associated. Undoubtedly the holy souls who find a pure eye and are favored with insight will, in the kingdom of lights, be acquainted with all mysteries, and will seek the bounty of witnessing the reality of every great soul. They will even manifestly behold the Beauty of God in that world. Likewise will they find all the friends of God, both those of the former and recent times, present in the heavenly assemblage.'

'The difference and distinction between men will naturally become realized after their departure from this mortal world. But this distinction is not in respect to place, but in respect to the soul and the conscience. For the Kingdom of God is sanctified (or free) from time and place; it is another world and another universe. And know thou for a certainty that in the divine worlds the spiritual beloved ones will recognize one another, and will seek union with each other, but a spiritual union. Likewise a love that one may have entertained for anyone will not be forgotten in the world of the Kingdom, nor wilt thou forget there the life that thou hadst in the material world.'

Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, Pages 188-190

Can they still choose to do good or evil and either advance or go back a step or two?

Know that nothing which exists remains in a state of repose—that is to say, all things are in motion. Everything is either growing or declining; all things are either coming from nonexistence into being, or going from existence into nonexistence. So this flower, this hyacinth, during a certain period of time was coming from the world of nonexistence into being, and now it is going from being into nonexistence. This state of motion is said to be essential—that is, natural; it cannot be separated from beings because it is their essential requirement, as it is the essential requirement of fire to burn.

Thus it is established that this movement is necessary to existence, which is either growing or declining. Now, as the spirit continues to exist after death, it necessarily progresses or declines; and in the other world to cease to progress is the same as to decline; but it never leaves its own condition, in which it continues to develop. For example, the reality of the spirit of Peter, however far it may progress, will not reach to the condition of the Reality of Christ; it progresses only in its own environment.Look at this mineral. However far it may evolve, it only evolves in its own condition; you cannot bring the crystal to a state where it can attain to sight. This is impossible. So the moon which is in the heavens, however far it might evolve, could never become a luminous sun, but in its own condition it has apogee and perigee. However far the disciples might progress, they could never become Christ. It is true that coal could become a diamond, but both are in the mineral condition, and their component elements are the same.

Abdu’l-Baha (Some Answered Questions, pp 233-234)

 

[Dawnofhope]

So moving on... Chapter 11. It has the two witnesses doing their thing for 42 months. Verse 7 says that when they have finished their testimony, the beast kills them and the bodies sit in the street of the city where their Lord was crucified for 31/2 days. Verse 11, after the 3/12 days they come to life and a great earthquake hits that city and kills 7000 people. Verse 14... the second Woe is past. Since you've already had Muhammad and the Umayyads in chapter 9 with the first Woe, how do you come up with using them again in the events describing the second Woe?

Apocalyptic biblical verses do not follow the same logic as other writings. Chapter 11 is about the birth of the Baha'i Faith, how Islam will try to prevent it and destroy, and why God's religion can be a source of evil, rather than good.

Also, as I remember, the earthquake Baha'is used was in Persian, but this says it should be the city where the Lord of the two witnesses was crucified. How can that be anywhere but Jerusalem?

Jerusalem is no longer a city of peace. Revelation does talk about Jerusalem but a new Jerusalem.

Revelation 21:1-4

That's another story.

 

[oldbadger]

And no one really has no idea of the far future. Even the term "controlling" the world may reveal more about your own apprehensions when "controlling" isn't in our expectations at all... A true world civilization that we envision has already begun... We have instant communication and that means response... For now no one controls that... We're ourselves responsible you and i ... Badger and Art.

Indeed, this last few months has shown me that I personally cannot project further than a very short time.

But Arthra, if you would insist that Bahai has no expectations or hopes for a World Theocracy, what would its Laws, and Policing, and even sentencing, and other future policies have been described for?

Yes....... the written plans describe a theocracy, but only to be initiated at the point of a very high % of Bahais in the World.

No matter what the horrific devastation might be, I cannot imagine the survivors of any haulocaust turning to Bahai, but that's from my point of view.

 

[Vinayaka]

There is absolutly no doubt the Faith of Baha'u'llah will grow.

Your faith in it, sure, but there is no factual evidence it's even growing today.

 

[Vinayaka]

No your religion is not lumped in except with those who are tolerant and peace loving.

My point is that if you mean radical Islam, then say radical Islam. Even if it's a couple of faiths, I just think it's wise to be more specific. Then these misunderstandings of 'everybody but Baha'i'' won't occur.

 

[oldbadger]

Thats good you admit that.

Wot...? Me...? 'onest ol' Badger they calls me.

Why wouldn't we?

Now, a Bahai who is only aware of the happy side of the Faith and who 'calls it' is purely honest.

But any who know the harder details and who might withold 'em in sweet camourflage, they could deserve another description entire.

 

[Vinayaka]

we are strictly and I mean the term quite literally we are "non-political"

Nonsense. If you write letters to heads of governments the world over, it's political. We're all political in some way, and lots of folks are far less political than the Baha'i'.

Just as declaring you don't proselytise is false, so too is this.

 

[Vinayaka]

Wot...? Me...? 'onest ol' Badger they calls me.

Now, a Bahai who is only aware of the happy side of the Faith and who 'calls it' is purely honest.

But any who know the harder details and who might withold 'em in sweet camourflage, they could deserve another description entire.

With all the Baha'i' exposure sites on line, all one can speculate is that where there's smoke, there's fire.

 

[oldbadger]

Your faith in it, sure, but there is no factual evidence it's even growing today.

Given the info on this thread, predestination of the good (and bad), inequality in equality, no spiritualism in spirituality, a hoped for theocracy, etc what % of the World's free population would be attracted to Bahai?

 

[oldbadger]

With all the Baha'i' exposure sites on line, all one can speculate is that where there's smoke, there's fire.

All the Bahai sites? I think most of them are estranged or excommunicated.
I think that only Bahai.org is the official site.

One member who has posted on this thread is estranged because of his web sites, but he is the clearest writer about Bahai imo.

 

[Vinayaka]

Given the info on this thread, predestination of the good (and bad), inequality in equality, no spiritualism in spirituality, a hoped for theocracy, etc what % of the World's free population would be attracted to Bahai?

One factor that keeps getting people is friendliness. That holds a few lonely people for the short term. They go, the people are friendly, it all seems so nice. They feel welcomed, etc. One of the members on here so much as admitted that that's how he got started.

But other faiths can do that, and maintain far more sense in the philosophy as well. So short term, sure, but holding people in it, not so much. There is evidence to show that Baha'i' loses a lot of folks after a few years, for all kinds of reasons. Not that any religion is doing very well these days. at retaining the members.

 

[Vinayaka]

All the Bahai sites? I think most of them are estranged or excommunicated.
I think that only Bahai.org is the official site.

One member who has posted on this thread is estranged because of his web sites, but he is the clearest writer about Bahai imo.

Yeah, I meant all the other sites, not that official Baha'i' site. There are always two sides to a story.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Not so! Not at all. We only deal with Baha'i issues in the jurisdiction we serve... that's it. In the future and that may mean centuries there may be "Houses of Justice" that will deal with more issues than we have today, but for now we are strictly and I mean the term quite literally we are "non-political"

The aim & hope of Baha'ism is a World Government under their control. Of course Baha'is are political. Even if they affect neutrality in current political conditions; the aim of their religions is a political system where they are in control.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Yes....... the written plans describe a theocracy, but only to be initiated at the point of a very high % of Bahais in the World.

You should quote directly from Baha'i Writings such written plans you are referring to.