How are these Great Beings explained?

[Dawnofhope]

I think they probably are, and certainly my faith has been portrayed unjustly, and that's partially why I'm on this thread at all.

I agree that on this thread, statements were made about Hinduism that were incorrect. I think all the Baha'is here are on board with that now. We are all from a Christian background or Islamic (IT). We live in Western countries so the lack of knowledge is understandable. What remains is a Baha'i belief the Krishna is a Manifestation of God, His life and Teachings at least to some extent are recorded in the Bhagavad Gita, and that He said He would manifest Himself again at a time when moral standards have declined. There are in addition a great many spiritually enlightened teachers throughout Hinduisms long history. I know that's not a belief you agree with and many other Hindu's beside. I understand to some extent the reasons for your disagreement that the very different paradigm you hold in regards to a belief in Moksha, reincarnation, and Dharma.

So while we have these beliefs, there is nothing that is negative. I imagine the most disturbing aspect is the insidious attempts to align some aspects of Hinduism with an Abrahamic paradigm. I think that is what stirs something deep with you. I have the impression that underneath it all, you have a deep distain for the Abrahamic Faiths, and the Baha'i faith is no exception.

You had mentioned that defending your faith is partially why you are here. What is the other aspect to it, if you don't mind me asking?

As for point 2, there has been an underlying 'us versus them' attitude all along. Not from you personally as much, but that just highlights how we can't generalise about the attitudes of all the adherents of any faith. Not sure if that's proselytising or just honesty about why you are what you are, in regards to faith. obviously, one should think his faith is best for him personally.

I agree there is this us verses them theme throughout this thread, but it comes and goes with varying degrees of intensity. Sometimes it feels like a genuine interfaith dialogue. Other times like a food fight, with sacred teachings getting thrown around. I think its unlikely anyone here is going to change their religion, so for me its an opportunity to learn and reflect, besides I enjoy chatting to new people. Defending my faith has become a dominant concern too.

I have been told I'm walking away from God, and that I'm spiritually blind. So I suppose that's comparing faiths, no?

I've admitted my poor choice of words and explained what I meant.

I admit also that I am one who actively teaches and promotes the Baha'i Faith but I try to avoid all aspects of proselytizing that I mentioned above. How about you? Have you found yourself straying inadvertently into proselytizing as defined in one and two above?

 

[oldbadger]

I have lived in places where it is expanding rapidly and still is.

Why in Iran they persecute and supress, in the midmost heart of the ocean, it Grows

Colourful prose there.

God works in the most mysterious of ways.

Regards Tony

You can say that again......
In a World where even torn-jeans fashion has rocketed into the multi millions, Bahai struggles on, mostly held back by its lack of straight talking bight-the-bullet candid honesty.

 

[oldbadger]

Many people make their own fires so they can admire what they have done.

Regards Tony

So all those who joined in good faith, deceived by some sweet sentences and a few false smiles, who then callled out their findings to the world ............... are spiritual arsonists?

Sound like religious propaganda to me.

 

[oldbadger]

There is the lawful path and those that choose not to follow it to the extent they have choosen and the result given under that Law. It also means they have no heeded the advice given.

Each case is between them and the Law.

Regards Tony

If you tell the Truth....... you break the Law!
Is that what you're saying?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So what happened to the return of Christ bringing peace? I thought God was going to take control? Are we going to make spears into pruning hooks? Or instead taking farm implements and go around stabbing each other with sheep shears and shovels? Or will we still be able to get weapons to more easily kill each other when our neighbors upset us? 'Cause if you leave it to humanity, peace definitely won't happen.

We were offered the most great peace and then the lesser peace. God allows our free will.

Thus the questions are have you embraced either concept and If not why should the world?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So who did Baha'is in the US vote for Hillary or Trump or neither?

Non of my business. Their choice.

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

(I actually don't understand why growth seems so important to people on this thread. It seems to be wired into the teachings, like economic growth is wired into capitalism.)

Wow!
Do you mean a kind of , 'Buy Bahai! Millions of followers can't be wrong!' kind of canvassing?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So all those who joined in good faith, deceived by some sweet sentences and a few false smiles, who then callled out their findings to the world ............... are spiritual arsonists?

Sound like religious propaganda to me.

You are free to think as you wish. What is their issue is thier issue.

I have found I light my own fires and make my own smoke until I understand more clearly what Baha'u'llah has asked me to do.

It is reasonable to conclude they do the same, we are all human.

Stay happy.

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

At least we are agreed that the Baha'i faith is a religion and membership is voluntary lol.

Your claims that the Baha'i faith are Orwellian and a dictatorship appear unsubstantiated.

Your argument is based on a letter from the Universal House of Justice 50 years ago that was probably addressing is the United States of America National Assembly during the Vietnam war. This war was a moral dilemma not just for the Baha'is but many others too. Baha'is were discouraged from participating in that war but provided guidance in the event that they were compulsorily required to participate under the laws of the country related to compulsory conscription. So I can't see how that is Orwellian. Pragmatic and sensible, yes. Dictatorial, no.

Got it!
So, in future, you won't be quoting letters from Bahai more than, what, twenty years old?

And are you telling me that that letter was false doctrine?

There is absolutely no doubt that that letter shows that in a Bahai World, as required, violence could be ordered by an NHJ or the UHJ.

You just don't get it imo, Bahai is full of 'We do this, but we don't' or 'We don't do this, but really, we do!'

And how Bahai so sweetly sidesteps Bahauallah's written word to give a totally opposite meaning is mind-boggling.

NEXT:
Bahais are forbidden to marry more than one spouse, but Bahauallah had three wives.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If you tell the Truth....... you break the Law!
Is that what you're saying?

No if you break the law you break the law and if you face a penalty you accept it and try to understand so you can rectify the fault.

If all understood Baha'u'llah, we accept the decision or there are rights of appeal and when the decision is given, it is right for us.

Any error wil right itself. This is great advice.

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

You are free to think as you wish. What is their issue is thier issue.

Well at least that's climb down from something like 'detractors are religious arsonists'.

Getting better.

I have found I light my own fires and make my own smoke until I understand more clearly what Baha'u'llah has asked me to do.

That would be better, understanding more clearly what Bahauallah wrote and sticking faithfully to his words, but that might get you estranged, because Bahai has changed somewhat since his words were written.

 

[oldbadger]

Even if Majority of the world become Baha'is, the Baha'is are to treat the minority equally, having the same rights as Baha'is.

Not true!
Non-Bahais will have no vote, no voice, no seats in control or government.

That is for sure, as there is nothing in Baha'i Writings that suggests otherwise. It is undeniable that Baha'i Faith is a peaceful Religion, as clearly can be seen from its Scriptures. The Houses of Justice will follow the Baha'i Scriptures.

I just quoted a letter from your UHJ that shows that Bahais support violence in National disputes and could use force if they themselves ever had the powers to do so.

It's no good parroting this stuff to RF members.

 

[oldbadger]

Baha'i Scriptures emphasize on Justice and Order. To establish Justice and order in the world, we need Laws. Most people agree with this. The question is who gets to define the Laws? Baha'is believe Manifestations of God, reveal new Laws in each age.

No they don't. They emphasise on Bahai Justice and Bahai Order, initiated by Bahais, governed by Bahais and enforced by Bahais.

A Bahai Theocracy.

 

[oldbadger]

Baha'u'llah also says it is better to be killed than kill.

Again it is a personal choice we have to make.

We ask for non combatant roles.

If ordered to service and we are ordered to engage the enemy we would not consider our safety, we would be the best shot for our mates.

You bit the bullet. At last you wrote it as it is, that Bahais would be prepared to fight in combat.

God knows our hearts, as God knows your intent to keep posting here.

These half hearted suggestions that I am a wicked member to post my truths ...... are pathetic, imo.

In a Bahai World, might I awake to my door getting kicked in?

I investigate truth and write what I believe.

 

[oldbadger]

.................................
I have been told I'm walking away from God, and that I'm spiritually blind. So I suppose that's comparing faiths, no? Can assume that Baha'i's believe if I was a Baha'i' I would be walking with God and I wouldn't be spiritually blind.

Another Bahai Double-Think, right there.
If Bahais claim that they are spiritually sighted, yet they shun spiritualism, that's just another Orwellian wobble.

 

[oldbadger]

.........................................
I don't know how they can make this only a "spiritual" healing.....................

Did a Bahai say that?
Didymus, Bahais claim not to believe in Spiritual Healing, so whoever wrote that has produced yet another example of Bahai Double-Think.

 

[oldbadger]

How many businesses and products would there be in a Baha'is world? Would gold and diamonds be all that valuable to spiritualized people? With the Baha'i focus on bettering and educating people, who would do the hard labor? If they aren't going to make millions, who want to be running large companies? If they can't exploit 3rd world countries for resources, how will industries get their raw materials at low cost? Anyway, I'm sure Baha'is will figure it out.

Bahauallah wrote that economic issues would have to be sorted by economic specialists. He offered no particular economic plan.

You mention Bahai education. Here in the UK we close down schools or withold funding if they don't deliver education to a set national curriculum. I ask you to imagine what a Bahai World curriculum might look like.

 

[oldbadger]

Is covenant breaking grounds for a divorce?

Wow!
Divorce is fairly easy in Bahai as long as the couple are prepared to wait a year, but if a covenant breaker wanted to get clear s/he could serve the petition the next week in my country.

 

[oldbadger]

That's ultimate friendliness. Imagine if you were traveling to some city, but going the wrong way. When a kindly Baha'i told how miserably lost and stupid you are and pointed you in the right direction.

If somebody told me that I was miserably lost and stupid I would tell 'em to go find some manners and ask somebody else.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Got it!
So, in future, you won't be quoting letters from Bahai more than, what, twenty years old?

No. I just found it ironic that the best you could do was to find a letter 50 years old that has little to do with the point you are making.

And are you telling me that that letter was false doctrine?

As you have suddenly become an expert in the Baha'i faith, you tell me the doctrine the letter is espousing.

There is absolutely no doubt that that letter shows that in a Bahai World, as required, violence could be ordered by an NHJ or the UHJ.

Its like reading tea leaves I suppose, where we see what we want to. I think you are reading into that letter things that are not really there. If you want to provide a genuine analysis, post the entire letter and the context as a starting point. Its easy to take a few lines out of context.

You just don't get it imo, Bahai is full of 'We do this, but we don't' or 'We don't do this, but really, we do!'

The quintessential Orwellian double speak, the Baha'i faith...ok

And how Bahai so sweetly sidesteps Bahauallah's written word to give a totally opposite meaning is mind-boggling.

Apparently so.

NEXT:
Bahais are forbidden to marry more than one spouse, but Bahauallah had three wives.

Right.