Did Jesus say he was God???

[Dirty Penguin]

I understand your point of view, but it's all symbolic.

Anyway it's already been proven:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2580368-post3959.html

QED

Shucks, that's not proof.

 

[Mark2020]

Shucks, that's not proof.

lol
What a response!

 

[Dirty Penguin]

lol
What a response!

It is what it is....:sorry1:

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Sorry about calling you miss. Jesus said in John 8:58: "Before Abraham was, I AM." I am sure that you as a Jew, are aware that such a claim means that Jesus is claiming to be God, because I AM is the name that God used when Moses asked for a name in the Book of Exodus before he was to go to Pharaoh.

Why did you capitalize I AM instead of should be written: I am ?
Ex 6 vs2,3,29,30; 7vs5,17

'I am' is Not the tetragrammaton [YHWH] is it ?______
Ex 12v12; 15v3; 17v15

Ex [3v14]
Hebrew: Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh is God's own designation meaning I will be that I will be, or I will become whatsoever I please.

Greek: Ego eimihoon or I am the Being or I am the Existing One

Latin: ego sum qui sum or I am Who I am.

KJV took the liberty to use all upper case letters.

Sure Jesus was before Abraham? Isn't Jesus God's first creation? Rev 3v14

Jesus is said to be created at Proverbs 8v22.

 

[Muffled]

Hold on here, the guy telling me that the Spirit gives him his answers in lieu of evidence and argument is telling me I have no basis for my claim?

The basis for my claim is the evidence and scholarly argument. Your basis is.....nothing.

I don't doubt for a minute that a person could argue away reality based on evidence. After all it is evidential that the sun travels around the earth. It takes a lot of faith to believe that the earth actually rotates instead.

You call God nothing!

 

[Muffled]

if you call any of that evidence its really a pathetic attempt.

I will start with a few and shine gods light on it for you because I believe your missing not just the boat, but the dock as well.

first, we dont even know who the writer of J was, its believed by most scholars it was written by atleast 3 or 3 groups of people over a long period of time. None of which ever knew or met jesus.

second, this statement simply means those who see me will end up knowing the father through my teachings.

there isnt a ounce of divinity in that statement.

great so jesus states, his faith in the father is so strong its a great feeling in which he is going to share with those that will listen.

he loves the god charactor, and its a deep part of his life.

the writers of this are portraying jesus as being a teacher so true to gods words that they feel he has the one true meaning of what god's message is.

I could spend all day with your personal fantasy, its not worth my time. In the end all you have is people who never knew or met him believed his was divine based on oral tradition

The Holy Spirit has alredy authenticated it as His word, so wild speculations about authorship are meaningless.

This is a speculation on a possible meaning. It does not follow exactly from the wording.

If a person looks at the meaning of words, it surely does identify Jesus as God.
To paraphrase it, when Jesus is asked to show God to them He says "you are looking at Him." I don't know how you could miss that as an identification of Jesus as God.

He didn't say that faith abided in HIm, Jesus said the Father abided in HIm.

That meaning can't be deduced from the statement. It is not a statement that anyone would make about another person (not that the Father is another person).
First of all, it is obvious that it is a spiritual statement. Unless a person is a canibal another person wouldn't be in them. Second it is a statement of the the Father's omnipresence since the Father would be in Jesus in that sense. Third Jesus is taalking about identity which the context supports and the "in" means more than just presence.

The text is presented as the word of Jesus and it is. One means exactly what it says not all kinds of interpolated meanings.

In the end all you have is imaginative fluff. I have the word and Jesus and neither are fantasy.

 

[Muffled]

]If Jesus was claiming He was God, why did He say He will inherit the earth?[/COLOR] Being a spokes man for a company does not make you the owner does it?

Jesus is the Son as well as God and therefore the rightful heir.

Exactly. Jesus is not simply a spokesman like Moses. He is God in the flesh. Moses can't inherit the earth because it doesn't belong to him.

Re 19:1 After these things I heard as it were a great voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, Hallelujah; Salvation, and glory, and power, belong to our God:

 

[Mark2020]

@Muffled: What do you think about this:

(Revelation 1:8 [NIV])
I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

Two more interesting points here, let's examine the underlined words:
1-"who is to come":
(Matthew 16:27 [NIV]) For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.

2-"who is":
Check this verse in Greek:
(Revelation 1:8 [TR])
εγω ειμι το α και το ω αρχη και τελος λεγει ο κυριος ο ων και ο ην και ο ερχομενος ο παντοκρατωρ

"who is" in Greek is"ο ων" (or the Being)
ων is from the verb εἰμί (to be):
verb, present, active, participle, singular, nominative, masculine

Where else do we see "ο ων" without predicate?

(Exodus 3:13-14 [NIV]) Moses said to God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?" God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' "

In Greek:
(Exodus 3:14 [LXX]) και ειπεν ο θεος προς μωυσην εγω ειμι ο ων και ειπεν ουτως ερεις τοις υιοις ισραηλ ο ων απεσταλκεν με προς υμας

Given 1 and 2
Then Jesus (the Son of Man) is God

 

[Shermana]

I don't doubt for a minute that a person could argue away reality based on evidence. After all it is evidential that the sun travels around the earth. It takes a lot of faith to believe that the earth actually rotates instead.

You call God nothing!

I call HIm "nothing'? False witness is so common among Christians especially when they are called out on their lies.

 

[arcanum]

Perhaps the emmanationist teaching best explains where Jesus stands, not the source of light but very close to the light.

 

[ResLight]

(Revelation 1:8 [NIV])
I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

The God and Father of Jesus is being quoted above.

In the context, “God” is presented as one person, that one person “gave” to another person, Jesus, the revelation. Revelation 1:1 introduces both Jesus and the God of Jesus. “This is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him.” Did Jesus give to Jesus the Revelation of Jesus? No, it was another person who was not Jesus, and the other one person was the One that Jesus refers to later as “my God.” (Revelation 3:12; some translations also have Jesus referring to "my God" in Revelation 2:7 and Revelation 3:2) When Jesus referred to God as “my God,” was he speaking of one person, or more than one person, or was he speaking of himself? Obviously, Jesus is speaking of someone who not himself as "my God."

Then, in Revelation 1:2, the unipersonal “God” is again distinguished from Jesus: “[John] testified to God’s word, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
In Revelation 1:4, John begins to write as though a letter to the seven churches. He identifies himself as the writer, but then begins to identify others from who the message is given. He first identifies “God, who is and who was and who is to come.” John does not identify the one “who is and who was and who is to come” as Jesus, for he goes on in Revelation 1:5 to add another person, Jesus, saying, “and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.” In doing this, John distinguishes Jesus from the unipersonal God spoken of in Revelation 1:4. However, in Revelation 4:8 we find the One who is, was and is to come spoken of and described in Revelation 4:1as the “one sitting on the throne.” Now notice in Revelation 5:6,7:

Then I saw one like a slaughtered lamb standing between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent into all the earth.
He came and took [the scroll] out of the right hand of the One seated on the throne. — Holman Christian Standard Version.

Therefore the One sitting on the throne is not Jesus, since in Revelation 5:6,7, we find Jesus depicted as the Lamb slain, who is found worthy to take the book from the right hand of the One sitting on the throne.

In Revelation 1:4, John identifies 3 different sources from which he received the message of his letter to the churches: (1) from the One who is and who was and who is to come, (2) and from the seven Spirits who are before his throne, (3) and also from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness. Therefore, John identifies at least two persons which the message is from, the Father, the God of Jesus, and Jesus, the Son of the Most High. In many translations, the seven spirits are spoken of as though persons, although it could be rendered as “from the seven spirits that/which are before his throne.” If these seven spirits refer to persons, then these seven spirits would be seven more persons from who the the message is received, thus making up nine persons altogether.

In Revelation 1:8, the scripture directly says it was the “Lord God” (as it reads in most translations) speaking, thus we have no reason to believe that any other than Yahweh is speaking. From verse 1, we ascertain that it is actually the angel speaking, quoting Jesus, who in turn is quoting his Father, Yahweh.The phrase “Lord God” is based on the later Septuagint tradition of substituting Kurios for Yahweh. The Hebrew phrase is often given in English transliteration as Yahweh Elohim.

Two more interesting points here, let's examine the underlined words:
1-"who is to come":
(Matthew 16:27 [NIV]) For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.

Revelation 1:8 is not refering to God as “coming” in the same manner that verse 7 speaks of Jesus as coming in the clouds, but rather he “is to come”, and this in relation to God’s being — his existence — in the past and the present. As far as I know, no one claims that when he says “who was”, that this means that he was coming from somewhere. Likewise, no one claims that when he “who is”, that is means he is presently going somewhere. In other words, it is not saying of the Almighty was coming or going in the past, that he is coming or going somewhere in the present, and thus, it is likewise not saying that he will be coming from or to somewhere in the future; thus “is to come” refers to God’s being -- His existence -- in the future. Therefore, verse 8 speaks of God’s being, his eternal existence, past, present and future. Revelation 1:8 is the Almighty Yahweh, the God and Father of Jesus speaking. He is the one who was, is and is to come. Jesus is not the one who was, is, and is to come. The peculiar phrase in Revelation 1:8 only belongs to Yahweh, not to Jesus. Yahweh has existed from all eternity past, he exists now, and he exists for all time to come. This is basically what Yahweh, the God and Father of Jesus, is saying in Revelation 1:8.

Nevertheless, although I do not believe that Revelation 1:8 speaks of this, Yahweh is also to come with judgment through Jesus. (Malachi 3:1-6; Psalm 96:13; Micah 1:3; Revelaton 1:1; 22:6. Psalm 96:98; 110:1; Matthew 22:43-45; 26:64; Mark 12:35-37; Luke 20:41-44; Acts 2:34; 7:55: Romans 8:34; Colossians 3:1; Hebrews 1:13; 10:12,13; 1 Peter 3:22; John 5:22) Only Yahweh, the God and Father of Jesus, is truly the Almighty.

The phrase often transliterated as ho erchomenos (who is coming) appears in the following scriptures, and sometimes it is applied to Jesus, and sometimes to others: Matthew 11:3; 21:9; Mark 11:9; Luke 6:47; 7:19; 7:20; 13:35; 19:38; John 6:14; 6:35; 12:31; 2 Corinthians 11:4; Hebrews 10:37; Revelation 1:4; 1:8; 4:8.

 

[Mark2020]

The God ...

Really too many word, with too little information. Did you even check all the verses that you put references to?

The one who is to come is Jesus:
Revelation 22:20
He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

and the other one person was the One that Jesus refers to later as “my God.” (Revelation 3:12; some translations also have Jesus referring to "my God" in Revelation 2:7 and Revelation 3:2) When Jesus referred to God as “my God,” was he speaking of one person, or more than one person, or was he speaking of himself?

As you can see Rev. 3:12 is pretty much ignored by "some" (not all) trinitarians. Not sure why....

Obviously, Jesus is speaking of someone who not himself as "my God."

Obvious to you and I. Obvious to Yeshua and John as well but not obvious to trinitarians.

However, in Revelation 4:8 we find the One who is, was and is to come spoken of and described in Revelation 4:1as the “one sitting on the throne.” Now notice in Revelation 5:6,7:

Been there and done that but for some odd reason context means little considering there's this idea that 7:17 is referring to Yeshua where 4 and 5 says it isn't.

Then I saw one like a slaughtered lamb standing between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders.

Yep. (in the midst of) is a much a do about nothing. It is meant just as you have it but seems to be contested by at least one trinitarian here.

He came and took [the scroll] out of the right hand of the One seated on the throne. — Holman Christian Standard Version.

Therefore the One sitting on the throne is not Jesus, since in Revelation 5:6,7, we find Jesus depicted as the Lamb slain, who is found worthy to take the book from the right hand of the One sitting on the throne.

Yep. Yeshua is standing and then steps forward to retrieve the scroll from his god. At this point the elders are seated upon their own thrones and their god is seated upon his own throne and the lamb (Yeshua) steps forward. Such plain and simple description and yet this is contested as well....I'm not sure why. Your guess is as good as mine.

"Did Jesus say he was God?"

No. He never did.

 

[Mark2020]

As you can see Rev. 3:12 is pretty much ignored by "some" (not all) trinitarians. Not sure why....

I've already explained this to you in this thread.

"Did Jesus say he was God?"

No. He never did.

I've already shown that He did.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I've already explained this to you in this thread.

Not Rev. 3:12. Do you have a post number?

I've already shown that He did.

Your opinion is he did. In context with 4 and 5 he isn't.

 

[Mark2020]

Not Rev. 3:12. Do you have a post number?

You can look for it in this thread, shouldn't be too hard.

Your opinion is he did. In context with 4 and 5 he isn't.

No, you should add: "the context as you wish to understand", not just say "the context"

 

[Dirty Penguin]

No, you should add: "the context as you wish to understand", not just say "the context"

Not my context. You have not shown, even though you believe you have, that Yeshua is seated upon the throne When 4 and 5 show him to be standing and steps forward to take the scroll from his god who is seated upon the throne. That's what 4 and 5 says. :sad:

 

[Mark2020]

Not my context. You have not shown, even though you believe you have, that Yeshua is seated upon the throne When 4 and 5 show him to be standing and steps forward to take the scroll from his god who is seated upon the throne. That's what 4 and 5 says. :sad:

Again, that's your understanding. I told you this is all symbolic.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Again, that's your understanding. I told you this is all symbolic.

Is Matthew [19v28] symbolic ?

Is Luke [22v30] symbolic?

Is Hebrews [10vs12,13] symbolic ?

Is Psalm [110vs1,2] symbolic?

If not, then the thrones of Revelation are also not just symbolism.

 

[Mark2020]

Is Matthew [19v28] symbolic ?

Is Luke [22v30] symbolic?

Is Hebrews [10vs12,13] symbolic ?

Is Psalm [110vs1,2] symbolic?

If not, then the thrones of Revelation are also not just symbolism.

Regardless, I've already proved my point!