Did Jesus say he was God???

[Mark2020]

Except for the fact that this subject has been dealt with...

More useless words?

Thank you for recognizing the fact that he is an expert...

Did you note quotes -> "expert"?

 

[Shermana]

None of your verses like Rev 15:3 have a defacto use of the Article as a Vocative. The NIV at least is honest about it. And thank goodness for the KJV, even though its wrong in many places, it's not here at least.

http://niv.scripturetext.com/revelation/15.htm

New International Version (©1984)
and sang the song of Moses the servant of God and the song of the Lamb: "Great and marvelous are your deeds, Lord God Almighty. Just and true are your ways, King of the ages.

And like I said, even Justin Martyr agreed that Jesus was MADE alongside the rest of the angels, just higher rank but of the same substance. It's not my view alone.

And I've yet to see where you disproved the "a god" translation, or how Psalms 136;2 and 82:1 doesn't imply that the "Heavenly beings" are called gods. (Note, they are called "Sons of G-d in Job 2).

 

[Dirty Penguin]

More useless words?

cute..!

Did you note quotes -> "expert"?

I saw them....and his expertise is not in contention by anyone here at RF......(well, maybe you....)

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/scriptural-debates/107858-god-throne-lamb-revelations.html

 

[javajo]

Would everyone concede that The Almighty is a term for God?

 

[Mark2020]

None of your verses like Rev 15:3 have a defacto use of the Article as a Vocative. The NIV at least is honest about it.

They all have the meaning of vocative, and some of the have "O" in English translation.
Is your problem the O and not the meaning? Anyway, here you have the O:

(Psalms 22:2 [KJV])
O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.

(Psalms 22:2 [NIV])
O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer, by night, and am not silent.

(Revelation 6:10 [KJV])
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Still seeing this o is challenging?

And like I said, even Justin Martyr agreed that Jesus was MADE alongside the rest of the angels, just higher rank but of the same substance. It's not my view alone.

Later, don't change the subject.

And I've yet to see ...

Just pick your choice. You're mentioning 3 different meanings, again, opposing to tens of translations and literature.

 

[Mark2020]

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/scriptural-debates/107858-god-throne-lamb-revelations.html

A thread isn't a reference.

 

[Mark2020]

Would everyone concede that The Almighty is a term for God?

I do.

 

[javajo]

Revelation 1:8 says:

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Here Jesus states that he is the Almighty, as in the Almighty God.

the Almighty and Almighty God are used numerous times in the Bible as a name for God, as in Psalm 91:1:

He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.

(see more verses here: Blue Letter Bible - Search Results for KJV)



He also states that he is the first and the last, the beginning and the ending, another name of God:

I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last; I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Rev. 1:11, 22:13

Isaiah 44:6b states:

I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

 

[Falcon]

yep ! the Almighty, definitely is referring to God .

 

[javajo]

yep ! the Almighty, definitely is referring to God .

Well, then, I think we can rest our case. Since in Revelation Jesus refers to himself as the Almighty, not to mention the first and the last as God is called in Isaiah. So, Jesus did, indeed say he is God.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

A thread isn't a reference.

You really are new to RF aren't you?

Yes, a thread is a reference, especially when referencing a member who is an expert on the subject (Greek Language).

In my previous post, which you dismissed as ("More useless words?")

I gave a reference to a scholar that said......


Barnes' Notes on the Bible
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne - We are not to suppose that he was in the center of the throne itself, but he was a conspicuous object when the throne and the elders and the living beings were seen. He was so placed as to seem to be in the midst of the group made up of the throne, the living beings, and the elders.

You provided a translation from NIV and I countered with a few from various translators that show the opposite to what you assert. Either these Christian scholars are lying or yours are. Considering Oberon helped to lay out the Greek and the various Greek rules rules as to why Yeshua (the Lamb) and "God" are not the same helps to clarify my position and those of the bible translators I presented.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Well, then, I think we can rest our case. Since in Revelation Jesus refers to himself as the Almighty, not to mention the first and the last as God is called in Isaiah. So, Jesus did, indeed say he is God.

If it were that easy we all would be in agreement.....but the very beginning of that book says.....

Rev. 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John.



If God already possessed it then he would have to give it to himself.....

 

[Falcon]

Penguin, God is given the Revelation to John . ----" The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him" [ John , the author of Revelation who received from God.while on the isle of Patmos ]

 

[Shermana]

Penguin, God is given the Revelation to John . ----" The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him" [ John , the author of Revelation who received from God.]

Nope, it says G-d gave the Revelation to Jesus if you actually read the rest.

 

[Falcon]

Shermana,you haven't a clue. You haven't any idea of how to understand the most difficult Book [ along with Daniel ] it contains only apocalyptic literature, so unless your a Church Theologian ,or a "teacher with authority" ,you might as well forget attempting to getting correct.

And no , you are wrong , God is speaking to John of Patmos , and by the way, this John never made claims of being John one of the apostles

You don't have to take my word on it , for I'm neither a Theologian or teacher with authority, but I study their teachings which come directly up through time from Jesus via His Apostles/ successors.

 

[Mark2020]

You really...

This is a commentary.
I need a reference on Greek Grammar.

I could have used a commentary too:
Here from Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible:

For the Lamb, which is in the midst of the throne,.... See Re 5:6; not before the throne, as the great multitude are said to be, Re 7:9; nor round about it, as the angels in Re 7:11; but in the midst of it, being equal to him that sits upon it; sitting on the same throne with him, and having the same power and authority,

 

[javajo]

If it were that easy we all would be in agreement.....but the very beginning of that book says.....

Rev. 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John.



If God already possessed it then he would have to give it to himself.....

That does not negate the fact that Jesus called himself the Almighty and the first and the last, which are names of God. One must also remember Jesus' (God the Son) relationship to God the Father. Jesus said nobody knows the day nor hour of his return except the Father. Even Jesus does not know, only the Father. See, within the Godhead, the Son, while being in the Father and completely God, is obedient (unto death) to the Father. And Jesus is the "only begotten Son of God", begotten not made, like angels and men.

 

[Shermana]

Shermana,you haven't a clue. You haven't any idea of how to understand the most difficult Book [ along with Daniel ] it contains only apocalyptic literature, so unless your a Church Theologian ,or a "teacher with authority" ,you might as well forget attempting to getting correct.

And no , you are wrong , God is speaking to John of Patmos , and by the way, this John never made claims of being John one of the apostles

You don't have to take my word on it , for I'm neither a Theologian or teacher with authority, but I study their teachings which come directly up through time from Jesus via His Apostles/ successors.

Yeah, I haven't a clue, because there's no way possible to read it as "The Revelation of Jesus, that G-d gave him" before it mentions John as the recipient of any message. There's no possible way to know the truth unless you hold a magic Church Theology degree apparently. Authority is granted through the Catholic church alone too?

1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servantswhat must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John.

That's nice that you think the Catholic Church gets their teachings from the time of Peter and Paul, but there's simply no evidence for that to be the case.

 

[Mark2020]

That does not negate the fact that Jesus called himself the Almighty and the first and the last, which are names of God.

(Revelation 1:8 [NIV])
I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

Two more interesting points here, let's examine the underlined words:
1-"who is to come":
(Matthew 16:27 [NIV]) For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.

2-"who is":
Check this verse in Greek:
(Revelation 1:8 [TR])
εγω ειμι το α και το ω αρχη και τελος λεγει ο κυριος ο ων και ο ην και ο ερχομενος ο παντοκρατωρ

"who is" in Greek is"ο ων" (or the Being)
ων is from the verb εἰμί (to be):
verb, present, active, participle, singular, nominative, masculine

Where else do we see "ο ων" without predicate?

(Exodus 3:13-14 [NIV]) Moses said to God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?" God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' "

In Greek:
(Exodus 3:14 [LXX]) και ειπεν ο θεος προς μωυσην εγω ειμι ο ων και ειπεν ουτως ερεις τοις υιοις ισραηλ ο ων απεσταλκεν με προς υμας

Given 1 and 2
Then Jesus (the Son of Man) is God

 

[look3467]

Once you understand that angels are clearly called gods such as in Psalm 136:2 and 82:1, Hebrews 1:8 makes more sense. (It also helps if you know its a passage from Psalms).

Who is "The god of this age" in 2 Corinthians 4:4?

Let me quote you a passage in genesis and you decide who the gods are: Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

"God of God's, Lord of Lords" is referencing "the God" upper case G, over all other gods. Lower case g.

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

All others are gods. God make decisions, angels don't. They just follow orders.

But sons? Yes, for they are gods.

blessings, AJ