Did Jesus say he was God???

[Dirty Penguin]

Regardless, I've already proved my point!

You presented your argument on the matter but hardly proving a point.

 

[Mark2020]

It's very clear, but you just don't want to admit. I understand.
Let's make it even easier:

(Revelation 1:7-8 [NIV])
Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.
I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

Two interesting points here, let's examine the underlined words:
1-"who is to come":
From Revelation 1:7 (shown above), the one who is coming was pierced, which is Jesus Christ.
(Revelation 22:20 [NIV]) He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
(Matthew 16:27 [NIV]) For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.

2-"who is":
Check this verse in Greek:
(Revelation 1:8 [TR])
εγω ειμι το α και το ω αρχη και τελος λεγει ο κυριος ο ων και ο ην και ο ερχομενος ο παντοκρατωρ

"who is" in Greek is"ο ων" (or the Being)
ων is from the verb εἰμί (to be):
verb, present, active, participle, singular, nominative, masculine

Where else do we see "ο ων" without predicate?

(Exodus 3:13-14 [NIV]) Moses said to God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?" God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' "

In Greek:
(Exodus 3:14 [LXX]) και ειπεν ο θεος προς μωυσην εγω ειμι ο ων και ειπεν ουτως ερεις τοις υιοις ισραηλ ο ων απεσταλκεν με προς υμας

Given 1 and 2
Then Jesus is God


Another (given by javajo) in a previous post here:

(Revelation 1:17-18 [NIV])
When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades. and have the keys of hell and of death.

Checking the underlined words:
1-I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever!:
This is Jesus since he says he was dead.

2-I am the First and the Last:
(Isaiah 44:6 [NIV]) This is what the LORD says-- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

Again, given 1 and 2
Then Jesus is God.

 

[doppelganger]

Though Exodus was not originally in Greek, and might not be properly translatable into Greek (or English for that matter) from Ancient Hebrew, which uses perfective and imperfective aspect and has no past, present or future verb tense. So comparing Greek NT passages to Greek translations of Ancient Hebrew isn't as compelling as it might first appear, particularly where - as here - the comparison turns on a present tense verb form.

 

[Mark2020]

Though Exodus was not originally in Greek, and might not be properly translatable into Greek (or English for that matter) from Ancient Hebrew, which uses perfective and imperfective aspect and has no past, present or future verb tense. So comparing Greek NT passages to Greek translations of Ancient Hebrew isn't as compelling as it might first appear, particularly where - as here - the comparison turns on a present tense verb form.

Glad you mentioned that.
The Septuagint (LXX) for the Torah was translated by Jewish scholars.
"It was held in great respect in ancient times; Philo and Josephus ascribed divine inspiration to its translators."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint

"ο ων"(ho on) was used by Philo:
I Am that I Am - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

From Theological Dictionary of the New Testament :
"Already in the LXX ho ṓn is used for God (Ex. 3:14). Philo has it too, and it is a divine predicate in Josephus"

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Though Exodus was not originally in Greek, and might not be properly translatable into Greek (or English for that matter) from Ancient Hebrew, which uses perfective and imperfective aspect and has no past, present or future verb tense. So comparing Greek NT passages to Greek translations of Ancient Hebrew isn't as compelling as it might first appear, particularly where - as here - the comparison turns on a present tense verb form.

Agreed.....

 

[Dirty Penguin]

It's very clear, but you just don't want to admit. I understand.
Let's make it even easier:

Not at all. Rev. 1:7-8 are of no importance other than to prove my point I've been stating all along. Here's why.

(Revelation 1:7-8 [NIV])
Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.

The NIV is a decent translations but still falls short. Rev. 1:7 is John talking about Yeshua followed by a full stop (Amen). He then proceeds to talk about "God" in verse 1:8, not Yeshua. We know this because in verse 1:6 he speaks of them as separate entities. What is peculiar is that your NIV version omits the word (theos) where as the one I have includes it. Going by the Codex Sinaiticus (oldest known copy of the bible) it exist there.

Codex Sinaiticus
Revelation 1:6 and 1:8
and made us a kingdom, priests to his god and Father, to him be glory and strength through the ages: amen.

Verse 1:8 is John speaking about "God", not Yeshua (the Lamb). This same "All mighty" is referenced later in Revelation is chapter 4 as being the "one seated upon the throne" while Yeshua is seen "standing" in the midst of (near, by) the 24 elders.
I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is, and who was, and who comes, the Almighty.


And there is verse 2:7, in part, where John quotes Yeshua as saying the following.....


Codex Sinaiticus
Revelation 2:7 (in part)
......To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of my god.

 

[Shermana]

I believe the NIV, like the NLT, (and countless others) feels that the Greek is not as important as the Theology. The Speaker issue is confused and exploited for a reason, and they know it. Mark2020 doesn't seem to like that little "Amen" stop at the end of 7.

If the issue is about who is "coming", Jesus was said to be "the one to come" long before he existed. One who is sent that is.

 

[Mark2020]

Not at all...

I believe the

You didn't disprove the fact that the one who is "coming" is Jesus, which is why I used verse 7.
And you didn't disprove the fact that the one who is "coming" is the "ho on" (v8).
And you ignored javajo's point: Jesus (who was dead) is "the first and last" (which is used for God)

Which makes both of your posts "useless", sorry.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

And you didn't disprove the fact that the one who is "coming" is the "ho on" (v8).

I was able to show that V8 is in reference to "the Lord God Almighty" as John described, in spite of the ill-mannered translation done by the NIV and that this "Almighty" is in direct correlation to Rev. 4 and 5.

Codex Sinaiticus
Rev. 4:8 (in part)

........ Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God, the Almighty, who was, and who is, and who comes.

This is talking about "God" not Yeshua (the Lamb). At this point "God" is seated upon the throne and the Lamb is standing near (in the midst of) the elders. How do we know The one seated upon the throne is "God Almighty" and not Yeshua (the Lamb)? Here's how......

Rev. 4:9 (CS)
And whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to him that sits upon the throne , who lives from age to age,

These verses have nothing to do with Yeshua (the Lamb) who is still standing near the elders. Hows do we know "The Lord God" is being worhiped and not Yeshua (the Lamb)? Here's how.....

Rev. 4:10, 11 (CS)
the twenty-four elders fall before him that sits upon the throne, and worship him that live, from age to age , and throw their crowns before the throne, saying: Worthy art thou, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for thou didst create all things, and because of thy will they existed and were created.

Now remember, Yeshua (the Lamb) is still standing near (in the midst of) the elders so they're not praying to him rather they're praying to their god who they say is sitting upon the throne.

At 5:1 John says he saw the following......

Rev. 5:1 (CS)
And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the back, sealed with seven seals.

Does "God Almighty, who who is sitting upon the throne receiving prays and which has possession of the scroll"...open the seals on the scroll? No. How do we know this? Well because John says what he saw next....

Rev. 5:6 (CS) in part
And I saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, a Lamb standing.....

Rev. 5:7
And he came and took it out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne .

This is referring to TWO SEPARATE entities. Now up to this point the creatures have been praying their god who is seated upon the throne. At no point does these chapters ever say Yeshua (the Lamb) was seated rather he is standing. After taking the scroll he is still standing. What do the creatures do next?

Rev. 5:8 (CS) in part
And when he had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the lamb.....

The emphasis here is he (took) the book. In order to do this he was a separate entity. More importantly he is referred to separately from his god by John as ("the lamb").

 

[Mark2020]

I was able ...

You disproved nothing of what I said.
Then you jumped to other verses. For the third time, I'll tell you that Revelation is symbolic.
Sorry, still "useless".

 

[Dirty Penguin]

You disproved nothing of what I said.
Then you jumped to other verses. For the third time, I'll tell you that Revelation is symbolic.
Sorry, still "useless".

Because your premise is that Yeshua (the Lamb) is "God Almighty" and that title is held by a separate entity in Revelation. It's not a title bestowed on Yeshua who in standing near the elders who are seated upon their thrones....rather it is for the one who is seated upon the throne whom Yeshua (takes) something from. Chapters 1-5, in context, fit perfectly so there's no need to "jump".

You contend Yeshua is this "God Almighty" but another chapter says something totally different. You say Yeshua is on the throne but another chapters reveals you are in error. Context reveals a lot and none of it suggest Yeshua is "God" nor do we find a reference in Revelation....

 

[Mark2020]

Because your premise...

Again you're jumping elsewhere, but how difficult is it to read this:

Revelation is symbolic.
​

 

[9Westy9]

I agree with Terrywoodenpic and I will add that you say it is overwhelming evidence and then proceed to give the your evidence as hearsay. It would never hold up in court.

The entire bible is hearsay. In fact most, if not all, of history is hearsay ^-^

 

[doppelganger]

Glad you mentioned that.
The Septuagint (LXX) for the Torah was translated by Jewish scholars.
"

Of course, all the Jewish Scholars in the world can't change the fact that Ancient Hebrew did not have verb tenses and Greek and English don't use the perfective and imperfective aspects the way Ancient Hebrew did. It's an attempt, probably informed by the theology of the translators at the time of the LXX, to render it not just in a different word, but through an entirely different grammatical structure.

 

[Mark2020]

It's an attempt, probably informed by the theology of the translators at the time of the LXX, to render it not just in a different word, but through an entirely different grammatical structure.

Yet this very same translation was used by people other than those translators to refer to God, as I gave you in my post. Not only that, by in Revelation too.

 

[doppelganger]

Yet this very same translation was used by people other than those translators to refer to God, as I gave you in my post. Not only that, by in Revelation too.

Of course it was. Because those authors were writing in Greek. That still doesn't address the translation problem.

 

[Mark2020]

Of course it was. Because those authors were writing in Greek. That still doesn't address the translation problem.

And the Revelation was in Greek using the same word they had.
Just read the verses that we gave and you'll find even more words referring to God.

 

[doppelganger]

And the Revelation was in Greek using the same word they had.

Right. And NOT the word used by the author(s) of Exodus - which was not written in Greek.

 

[Shermana]

Again you're jumping elsewhere, but how difficult is it to read this:

Revelation is symbolic.
​

What does symbolism have to do with the Speaker issue?

 

[Mark2020]

Right. And NOT the word used by the author(s) of Exodus - which was not written in Greek.

Is the "Almighty" good enough for you?