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Featured Can any JWs answer this?

Discussion in 'Religions Q&A' started by Neutral Name, Jul 20, 2019.

  1. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Active Member

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    To not love doesnt necessarily mean to hate. If i have an opportunity to help someone in a bad situation it isnt necessarily that I would hate them, i could just be ignoring them for selfish reasons but that doesnt mean that I hate them. Not caring is not loving but not hating either.

    There has been cases though throughout history in which excommunication has been used as a political tool to oppress those who disagree and as a tool to express hatred. Just read the history of the catholic church.
     
  2. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Active Member

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    What many cult councillors do is actually forcefully deprogramme members. The family actually hires them to kidnap their family member in the cult (which is illegal) and literally keep the person there, shouting at them, forcing evidence down their throat etc. Then after they are deprogrammed they actually suffer trauma. Many cult councillors are agannst this method today though.
     
  3. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Active Member

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    With scientology if you want to know what they want you to believe they believe them go to their website. If you want to know about their belief that we are linked to aliens then watch South Park. :)

    Studying only one side of an argument is illogical because believers and anti believers are all biased. One must weigh th opposing evidences together.
     
  4. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Active Member

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    The father didnt shun his son in the prodigal son.
     
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  5. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Active Member

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    You have never been all around the world in all the congregations therefore you cannot make this statement as it is not a fact then:"I can vouch for the fact that no child of a JW who is in genuine need of help because of mental health issues or any other kind of health concern for their child's welfare, would walk away if they were asked for help. The kind of help offered would be entirely dependent upon the attitude of the child and the kind of help sought. e.g we would not respond to a cry for help if someone was being hounded by an unpaid drug dealer."
     
  6. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Active Member

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    Even Jesus hung out with tax collectors and sinners if i remember correctly.
     
  7. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Active Member

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    In many other peoples experiences your interpretation of what the Bible councils on discipline has lead a few people to commit suicide and caused people hurt and depression.

    Also in order to qualify for discipline needed a persons sin must be witnesses by two people. Which is the problem brought up in the ARC link I posted because "Satans World" has come up with a better way of protecting children from pedophiles and disciplining them than "Jehovahs Organisation". And they let a lot of pedophiles get away with their crime. So your opinion is lacking against the facts.
     
  8. Neutral Name

    Neutral Name Active Member

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    Thanks again Israel and I know to watch out for deceivers. That's half of what I see in religion, the need to question things.
     
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  9. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I think there is a difference between shunning and disowning a person.
    If a person willfully practices the sins as listed at 1 Corinthians 5:9-13 they can Not be a Christian.
    Christendom (so-called Christian but mostly 'in name only') often does Not consider what 1st Cor. 5:9-13 says.
    I don't see anything about whether effects will be negative or not.
    Sure had a negative effect on Judas Iscariot to leave Jesus - Matthew 27:3-5; Acts of the Apostles 1:16-18.
    However, a repentant person can always return. See about the positive joy at Luke 15:7
     
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  10. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Thank you for your reply.
    Catholic excommunication then could be quite different from biblical disfellowshiping a person. 1 Corinthians 5:9-13.
    Sometimes it is Not easy to decide whether to help another or concentrate on oneself.
    Due to our imperfection such decisions can be an on-going conflict of interests, or trying to balance things out.
    First, it would be good to consider Jesus' illustration about the neighborly good Samaritan.
    We should all widen out, or broaden out in showing practical love for another in times of distress.
    We can all consider how we can imitate Jesus example and consider his New command found at John 13:34-35.
    However, if a person is already a baptized Christian then caution needs to be taken if that person decides to practice sin because even a 'little leaven' can ferment the whole lump / congregation. see 1 Corinthians 5:6-8; Galatians 5:9
     
  11. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Yes, an inquiring questioning mind wants to know.
    Jesus warns us to watch out for deceivers for the religious leaders of his day were deceivers.- Matthew 16:6-12
    Seems as if what Jesus saw was then 'well more than half'.
    That could be why Jesus said MANY would come ' in his name ' but prove false as per Matthew 7:21-23
    I suppose one could say that God is more interested in quality (sticking to Scripture) than quantity.
     
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  12. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    By saying ' hung out ' makes it sound like an almost every-day association.
    Rather, Jesus was using opportunities to teach tax collectors and sinners - Mark 2:15-17.
    Of course, this made the corrupted religious leaders angry with Jesus because they looked down on the average person.
     
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  13. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find Jesus weighed the evidences, so to speak, by his logical reasoning on the old Hebrew Scriptures as the basis for his teachings.
    This is why we find that Jesus often prefaced his statements with the words, " it is written..." meaning already written down or recorded in the old Hebrew Scriptures.
    So, what Jesus taught can be criss-crossed or cross referenced with the OT Hebrew Scriptures.
    Since the Bible is Not written in ABC order as a dictionary is, then we need to research by subject or topic arrangement.
    By taking one subject or topic at a time then we can see the internal harmony among the many Bible writers.
    By doing this we can see that Jesus' beliefs are linked only to the old Hebrew Scriptures explaining them for us.
    So, by taking a belief one can weigh one's belief beside what Jesus taught as to what the Bible really teaches.
     
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  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    And therein lies the key. By all means question everything, but also keep a balanced view, remembering that slander was used by the devil to discredit God in the first place, resulting in devastating consequences for the human race. It was used by the Pharisees to discredit Jesus and his apostles, resulting in the whole nation rejecting their Messiah. It is a great tactic because it works. What 'seems' right, isn't always right.

    Proverbs 14:12
    "There is a way that seems right to a man, But in the end it leads to death."

    There is nothing quite like a twisted half truth or words taken out of context to make the truth into a convincing lie. That has been the devil’s MO all along. Ex’s have something to prove....mostly to themselves. Those who take on the ‘crusade' to save the 'poor brainwashed souls' in our ranks are putting themselves and all who listen to them on thin ice. But that is entirely up to them.

    Jesus always taught that sins could only be forgiven if genuine repentance was demonstrated. We, as an international body of Christians, take the scriptural counsel regarding unrepentant wrongdoers very seriously, just as they did in the first century, being instructed to "remove" willful wrongdoers. (1 Corinthians 5:9-13)

    The point is, all who break God’s laws will be taken to task over them in the manner outlined in the Bible. It is an obligation for those who are shepherds of the flock to care for all the members. (Hebrews 13:17) For those who want to cause dissension in our ranks by questioning authority or doctrine, there are ways to submit those questions without disturbing the peace of the congregation, or undermining the faith of others.

    For those who commit serious wrongdoing and just want to forget about it and act like nothing happened, there is no scriptural way to do that. God will make sure that their sin will be uncovered and the necessary discipline administered. Because there was no confession, several meetings with the elders will be held with a view to lovingly correct any wrong attitudes and to help them understand why there has to be repentance, and why further action will be taken if necessary. If the person then recognizes their sin and is repentant, discipline will be administered by way of a reproof, but no disfellowshipping will take placed. Only in the case of serious wrongdoing with no repentance demonstrated will there be expulsion from the congregation. It is entirely scriptural, and meant to allow that person time out to reflect on what they have forsaken. It separates the humble from the proud. (Like the Prodigal Son)

    For us, our baptism is a dedication to God, a willing agreement made with all the rules of a marriage. We come into a binding relationship with God as members of his nation of worshippers, bound by his laws, just as Israel were. We don’t join a church like some people join a club. Coming into God’s family has obligations and there are rules governing our behavior. If you can’t accept the rules, then don’t commit yourself in the first place. If you know the rules and their consequences, then why complain when you break them and they are enforced? :shrug:

    The 'whiners and complainers' have always existed....those who only see things their own way....we saw them in ancient Israel and in early Christianity....we also saw how God dealt with those who questioned the authority that he bestowed on those appointed to lead the people in worship. If we don't want to recognize the authority of the shepherds, then don't become part of the flock.

    If you want a divorce, then go.....but why bad mouth your ex? Those feelings and expressions do not come from a good place. Its pure vengeance disguised as concern. The "angel of light" has "ministers". (2 Corinthians 11:14-15)

    In a world ruled by the devil, nothing is as it seems. (1 John 5:19) :(

    God does not change his standards...but humans do, and they often try to force God to abide by their rules, which of course, he will never do.
     
    #74 Deeje, Jul 22, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2019
  15. Neutral Name

    Neutral Name Active Member

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    I always think of:

    Matthew 7:13-14
    13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
    14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
     
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  16. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Active Member

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    And you still haven't addressed the child abuse issue and the negligence of the watchtower.

    Stop deceiving people by evading the point. A person with a weak argument uses ad hominems to discredit opposers and thus avoids dealing with the argument and the facts.

    Also your assuming is arrogant as I have said before as it only applies to true Christians and you are just one group in many claiming to be true christians. If JWs arent true christians then your argument as hominem falls flat.

    Also by your reasoning, you are saying that nobody can oppose you validly. That means you are extremely biased.
     
  17. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Active Member

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    Thanks for the answer. It would be cool if you could discuss the scriptural backing on shunning on my new thread "Christians Shun". I am using it to gather the different viewpoints on shunning and the scriptural background for each viewpoint.
     
  18. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Active Member

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    I like your reasoning here. We also need to see alternative views on interpretations of scriptures though because straight forward reading doesnt necessarily reveal the cultural context and other influences on the meaning. Looking at other viewpoints, especially by people like John Gill, John Calvin etc, is very enlightening. One realises that many scriptures are open ended and subject to interpretation based on bias or ignorance or knowledge. So one should start with explicit scriptures as a foundation, ones which are not ambiguous, and build belief based off that.
     
  19. Neutral Name

    Neutral Name Active Member

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    Thanks, I have to finish studying before I can state more. I know when I went to a JW Church, I never heard Jesus mentioned, just God. I thought that maybe JWs were Jewish.

    As far as satan's lies. I understand that it truth.
     
  20. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    It helps to appreciate that as disciples of Jesus Christ, (who was Jewish,) that he always spoke about his God and Father. We simply imitate Jesus, who came as a representative of his Father, which is what his title "Logos" (Word) means. He promoted God's word and worship and taught us to pray to God alone. (Luke 4:5-8)

    Too often, deception is not realised until it is too late. But Jesus says that God recognises his own....and that's none of them will be missing at the end of the day. No one can come to Christ without an invitation from his Father. (John 6:65) Love is the one thing that identifies Christ's true disciples. God shows us all through the Bible that love requires discipline. Tough love is real love....it is not indulgent or based on pure emotion.

    The devil has no scruples....he knows he can't win, but he will take as many as he can deceive, down into oblivion with him. By our choices in that climate, we decide our own future. It requires God's spirit to defeat the spirit of this world. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)

    May we all make the right decisions for the right reasons.
     
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