Can any JWs answer this?

[URAVIP2ME]

We know that the organisation spends money on disaster relief. But we don't actually know how much money the organisation receives and what they spend it on. It could be that they are receiving much more money or less than what the disaster relief costs. We do know for a fact that they are spending money to pay out lawsuits. And the recent decrease in publications, the releasing of Bethel family members, the selling of Kingdom Halls around the world coincide with recent lawsuits. Although I cannot see how the lawsuits affect the monetary income that badly. Maybe they aren't receiving that much donations? Nonetheless, we know for a fact that they are spending money paying out lawsuits. The question is: if they aren't using donation money for them then where are they getting the money from?

I'll try to answer as best as I can.
Yipes, around here a 1950's Kingdom Hall was sold because to remodel was Not worth the $$$$$ besides parking became inadequate. So, two congregations combined into using one newer Kingdom Hall just meeting at different times in the same building. In other words, congregation funds were and are being spent wisely.

The electronic age shows there are decreases in paper publications such as in newspapers.
So, it is just as easy to read publications on line besides viewing the www.jwbroadcasting videos, etc.
One person told me she has Alexia read to her at bedtime.
I know a couple who have some difficulty reading and can learn more from seeing pictures and listening.
Technology has consolidated things so less volunteers (Bethel family) are needed.
Technology has allowed so the Scriptures can be translated right were people live.
In other words, volunteers at remote translation offices allow people to have Scripture in their own mother tongue or native languages right where they are living even in remote areas of Earth.
If you go to www.jw.org look under donations.
Remember: There are Never collection plates or envelopes passed. Nameless contributions are just put in a contribution box.
Years ago I wrote that to talk show host Phil Donahue because he said he knew of No religion that did Not have collection plates or church envelopes.
One Catholic man told me ( regarding Catholic law suits ) that their faith is being tested.
Seems to me, since we are living in these ' last days of badness ' on Earth as per 2 Timothy 3:13,1-5 then there is wide-spread trouble, but what is being done about it is what now counts.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

@Diana Montgomery , when learning about JW's, it may be best not to follow the advice of Ex-Witnesses...that would be comparable to trying to learn about Jesus, and asking Judas Iscariot.

@shmogie , I think, never has been.

Disfellowshipping.....means that after a complete investigation, one is knowingly involved in a sin, and will not repent of it.

Yes. That is the reason. The wrongdoer's attitude.(Responsible brothers will even try to help such a one, before any judgement is made.)

Anyone can come back in, many do. (My first wife was disfellowshipped, twice, and returned.) Even those who were once apostate.
King Manasseh was apostate (he actually burned his children (child?) in fire), 2 Kings 21:1-16. And Jehovah God removed him...but after repenting, Jehovah accepted him back. - 2 Chronicles 33:10-13.

The Bible tells us to remove unrepentant ones @ 1 Corinthians 5. So child-molesters will be removed.
In accord w/ Jesus' words @ Matthew 18:16, though, any serious matter is only established w/ "two witnesses." BTW, Jesus was quoting Deuteronomy 19:15.

(We really do try to follow Scripture as best we can.)

Getting two witnesses in such a matter as this, is difficult. But changes have been made regarding this issue.
The heinous act of child-molestation is pre-meditated. That is not simply one 'making a mistake.'
That being said.... It needs to be stressed that no one is disfellowshipped for making mistakes, sexual or otherwise. It's all about their attitude. So these ones bring it on themselves....they've destroyed their families, as my ex-wife did... Thankfully she came to her senses. Twice.

Don't be too quick to believe what's posted on the internet.

It's ironic somewhat, that JW's are well-known for disfellowshipping wrondoers, but then we *allow* child molesters to continue? No, when proven we get rid of them!

But then, we get blasted for disfellowshipping!


As Paul said @ Galatians 5:9... "A little leaven corrupts the whole batch".

 

[Samael_Khan]

@Diana Montgomery , when learning about JW's, it may be best not to follow the advice of Ex-Witnesses...that would be comparable to trying to learn about Jesus, and asking Judas Iscariot.

The above is an illogical statement. You are basically telling her to be biased. That isnt a way of determining truth. Your type of statement is a common one made by cults. It makes a person suspect because it implies that your beliefs cannot hold up to scrutiny. In fact you are telling Diana not to scrutinize your beliefs.

(Edit. I take that last sentence back.)

 

[Samael_Khan]

@Diana Montgomery , when learning about JW's, it may be best not to follow the advice of Ex-Witnesses...that would be comparable to trying to learn about Jesus, and asking Judas Iscariot.

@shmogie , I think, never has been.



Yes. That is the reason. The wrongdoer's attitude.(Responsible brothers will even try to help such a one, before any judgement is made.)

Anyone can come back in, many do. (My first wife was disfellowshipped, twice, and returned.) Even those who were once apostate.
King Manasseh was apostate (he actually burned his children (child?) in fire), 2 Kings 21:1-16. And Jehovah God removed him...but after repenting, Jehovah accepted him back. - 2 Chronicles 33:10-13.

The Bible tells us to remove unrepentant ones @ 1 Corinthians 5. So child-molesters will be removed.
In accord w/ Jesus' words @ Matthew 18:16, though, any serious matter is only established w/ "two witnesses." BTW, Jesus was quoting Deuteronomy 19:15.

(We really do try to follow Scripture as best we can.)

Getting two witnesses in such a matter as this, is difficult. But changes have been made regarding this issue.
The heinous act of child-molestation is pre-meditated. That is not simply one 'making a mistake.'
That being said.... It needs to be stressed that no one is disfellowshipped for making mistakes, sexual or otherwise. It's all about their attitude. So these ones bring it on themselves....they've destroyed their families, as my ex-wife did... Thankfully she came to her senses. Twice.

Don't be too quick to believe what's posted on the internet.

It's ironic somewhat, that JW's are well-known for disfellowshipping wrondoers, but then we *allow* child molesters to continue? No, when proven we get rid of them!

But then, we get blasted for disfellowshipping!


As Paul said @ Galatians 5:9... "A little leaven corrupts the whole batch".

Umm... it was proven in court in Australia, on video, by Bethel elders in Australia that the JWs didnt report 1006 molestation cases since the 1950s. So they were aware of known child abusers within the congregation. It is a fact. Plus the two witness rule has been applied for decades in child abuse cases which shows that God doesnt provide food at the proper time for JWs. Fact. I understand that you dont condone child abuse, but the facts point to the organisation in Australia being negligent when it somes to child abuse. And you can trust the video on the Australian Royal Commission because it is a government video, the information is available on the givernment website, Bethel members were questioned and Jeffrey Jackson was also questioned. This is all caught on camera as part of the ARC. So i agree with you that we shouldnt trust anything on the internet, but to distrust the ARC one must conclude that the Australian Bethel and Jeffrey Jackson were in on the hoax.

 

[Samael_Khan]

I'll try to answer as best as I can.
Yipes, around here a 1950's Kingdom Hall was sold because to remodel was Not worth the $$$$$ besides parking became inadequate. So, two congregations combined into using one newer Kingdom Hall just meeting at different times in the same building. In other words, congregation funds were and are being spent wisely.

The electronic age shows there are decreases in paper publications such as in newspapers.
So, it is just as easy to read publications on line besides viewing the www.jwbroadcasting videos, etc.
One person told me she has Alexia read to her at bedtime.
I know a couple who have some difficulty reading and can learn more from seeing pictures and listening.
Technology has consolidated things so less volunteers (Bethel family) are needed.
Technology has allowed so the Scriptures can be translated right were people live.
In other words, volunteers at remote translation offices allow people to have Scripture in their own mother tongue or native languages right where they are living even in remote areas of Earth.
If you go to www.jw.org look under donations.
Remember: There are Never collection plates or envelopes passed. Nameless contributions are just put in a contribution box.
Years ago I wrote that to talk show host Phil Donahue because he said he knew of No religion that did Not have collection plates or church envelopes.
One Catholic man told me ( regarding Catholic law suits ) that their faith is being tested.
Seems to me, since we are living in these ' last days of badness ' on Earth as per 2 Timothy 3:13,1-5 then there is wide-spread trouble, but what is being done about it is what now counts.

The problem isnt that kingdom halls were being sold. The problem is that the selling coincides with certain events.

Electronic media only works where technology is widely accessable. So using electronic publications is good for 1st world countries. Not so in third world countries. Also in third world countries it might be difficult for people to buy electronic devices because they cannot afford the expense. But innevitably having stuff online is still a good decision. It does coincide with certain events though.

I dont think you should compare yourselves with the catholics regarding collection plates. With catholics it is optional to give money. In recent years the organisation has asked members to commit to paying a certain amount of money depending on the congregation and are encouraging members, even children, to make donations. I see this similar to collection plates.

At least neither is like the New Apastolic Church which demands 10% income from their members.

Also i dont think catholics have any problems with money. They have got loads of assets and cash in the vatican city.

None of the above detract from the fact that the org is paying lawsuits and doesnt disclose its funds.

 

[shmogie]

The above is an illogical statement. You are basically telling her to be biased. That isnt a way of determining truth. Your type of statement is a common one made by cults. It makes a person suspect because it implies that your beliefs cannot hold up to scrutiny. In fact you are telling Diana not to scrutinize your beliefs.

I don´t think your last sentence is correct. I am not a JW, and most likely will not become one. Nevertheless, I have met with hem regularly, and to be sure, I scrutinize their beliefs and they defend them.

An ex of any denomination, commenting on that denomination, may have bitterness or anger as part of what they say. That must be factored in, and their positions verified.

 

[Samael_Khan]

I don´t think your last sentence is correct. I am not a JW, and most likely will not become one. Nevertheless, I have met with hem regularly, and to be sure, I scrutinize their beliefs and they defend them.

An ex of any denomination, commenting on that denomination, may have bitterness or anger as part of what they say. That must be factored in, and their positions verified.

You have a point there... so I am wrong in my statement as the JWs on here definitely discuss their views with others.

My issue would be with the statement that one shouldnt follow the advice of ex witnesses. What he should be saying is that one should scrutinise each piece of advice on its own merit.

JWs only scrutinise beliefs (I should rather say beliefs about the organisation) to a certain extent though. For instance I have not encountered a Witness (besides myself) who would look at alternative views about the history of the organisation to verify whether what the organisation says about it is correct or not. Or read tge old books. Neither do they investigate the child abuse allegations, instead dismissing them by saying that they are just lies. In fact, you are making me realise an interesting point. JWs in general do not mind being criticised about their beliefs based off scriptures (unless that criticism becomes a spiritual risk). They do mind being exposed to non organisational sources about their history and current events. Have you ever questioned them about these things? (I might have asked you this before.)

And you are right about Exs from a denomination. The problem is that bias goes both ways. My position is that one shouldnt trust what a member or an Ex member says without researching the opposing view and comparing the two. Neither side should discourage reviewing the other sides statements. The facts of their statements should be taken into consideration. And Ex members should provide verified evidence from authentic sources and the group themselves to validate their stance.

 

[savagewind]

I don´t think your last sentence is correct. I am not a JW, and most likely will not become one. Nevertheless, I have met with hem regularly, and to be sure, I scrutinize their beliefs and they defend them.

An ex of any denomination, commenting on that denomination, may have bitterness or anger as part of what they say. That must be factored in, and their positions verified.

Thank you! @Deeje has always said, "does have".

 

[savagewind]

. For instance I have not encountered a Witness (besides myself) who would look at alternative views about the history of the organisation to verify whether what the organisation says about it is correct or not. Or read tge old books. Neither do they investigate the child abuse allegations, instead dismissing them by saying that they are just lies. In fact, you are making me realise an interesting point. JWs in general do not mind being criticised about their beliefs based off scriptures (unless that criticism becomes a spiritual risk).
.

I am amazed! There are thousands of such former Jehovah's Witnesses who do all those.

 

[Samael_Khan]

I am amazed! There are thousands of such former Jehovah's Witnesses who do all those.

I know right. Maybe they just didnt openly admit to it?

 

[savagewind]

I know right. Maybe they just didnt openly admit to it?

Did you ever see the forum which welcomed a soul calling himself Cedar? His name is John something and he has quite a following! I could name several former JWs who are rocking the boat, but I can't remember their names.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Did you ever see the forum which welcomed a soul calling himself Cedar? His name is John something and he has quite a following! I could name several former JWs who are rocking the boat, but I can't remember their names.

Oh yeah. I know of many Ex JW's who have channels on Youtube. John Cedars, KimMikey, Stop the Shunning and ExJW Analyzer. I have been in contact with Kim and Mike. What is cool about KimMikey is that people inform them about elders letters, videos and other things before the time, which shows shockingly that there are JW's currently in Bethel and elders who are supplying "apostates" with information.

Many Ex JW's, including Lloyd Evans from John Cedars , were on the Leah Remini show about Scientology because the JW's are similar to them, and that made quite a bit of waves.

I pretty much watch these channels to see how the JW's are progressing because I study them as part of my trying to understand cults and I know them well and I have access to their current and past doctrine.

JWfacts.com by Paul Grundy is the most important site though because it lays down all the facts in detail which one can confirm on the Watchtower Library CD Rom.

Have you seen the recorded Judicial Committee meetings though? They reveal a lot. How JW's think the organisation is run is not actually how it is run.

 

[savagewind]

Have you seen the recorded Judicial Committee meetings though? They reveal a lot. How JW's think the organisation is run is not actually how it is run.

I have seen some recorded Judicial Committee meetings and they do not make much sense to me. But, more importantly, I have experienced my own Judicial Committee meetings and wow! out of a Sci-Fi book, I think. The mind is a wonderful thing. Isn't it? Anyway, after all that fiasco I was certain that The Holy Spirit is not really running things there as they claim it is. The Holy Spirit is kind and wise. The Jehovah's Witnesses are not that. And unfortunately, I have found that most of the ex-JWs that I have come across are not kind either and not so wise, in my opinion. It is not my opinion that they are not kind. It is the truth. Of course, I have no way of ever knowing if they are kind to their own.

 

[Samael_Khan]

I have seen some recorded Judicial Committee meetings and they do not make much sense to me. But, more importantly, I have experienced my own Judicial Committee meetings and wow! out of a Sci-Fi book, I think. The mind is a wonderful thing. Isn't it? Anyway, after all that fiasco I was certain that The Holy Spirit is not really running things there as they claim it is. The Holy Spirit is kind and wise. The Jehovah's Witnesses are not that. And unfortunately, I have found that most of the ex-JWs that I have come across are not kind either and not so wise, in my opinion. It is not my opinion that they are not kind. It is the truth. Of course, I have no way of ever knowing if they are kind to their own.

I have had a judicial meeting myself (which I asked for) but my elders were awesome so it was cool. They were very understanding individuals. Very nice people. Kind and wise. Naturally there are those in positions who want to do good and others who are in it for power. We all have different experiences so I wouldn't paint all the elders with one brush. When I had a meeting with the elders to say that I was leaving the JW's it pretty much revealed to me that their faith is in the hope, and not on the Bible. They didn't want to discuss the scriptures with me after a certain point.

I would say that at the very least, the judicial committees, the infiltration of the elder body by spies in Russia and the elders who abuse children prove that elders are not appointed by Holy Spirit.

I have heard of Ex-JW's who messed up people. But there is actually a psychology behind that. Once a persons foundation for morality is shattered, in their cases the JW organisation, then they let lose and lose all their senses. This happens a lot to those who were raised as JW's apparently. I don't know. That is just hearsay.

But yeah, people are people. There are good people and bad. We just have to find out who are actual good association, to use a popular phrase.

 

[savagewind]

I have had a judicial meeting myself (which I asked for) but my elders were awesome so it was cool. They were very understanding individuals. Very nice people. Kind and wise. Naturally there are those in positions who want to do good and others who are in it for power. We all have different experiences so I wouldn't paint all the elders with one brush. When I had a meeting with the elders to say that I was leaving the JW's it pretty much revealed to me that their faith is in the hope, and not on the Bible. They didn't want to discuss the scriptures with me after a certain point.

I would say that at the very least, the judicial committees, the infiltration of the elder body by spies in Russia and the elders who abuse children prove that elders are not appointed by Holy Spirit.

I have heard of Ex-JW's who messed up people. But there is actually a psychology behind that. Once a persons foundation for morality is shattered, in their cases the JW organisation, then they let lose and lose all their senses. This happens a lot to those who were raised as JW's apparently. I don't know. That is just hearsay.

But yeah, people are people. There are good people and bad. We just have to find out who are actual good association, to use a popular phrase.

I do trust that the elders seemed kind and wise toward you but I don't give credit to the men for that. It was The Holy Spirit. God cares about you.

I am sorry. I can't call the men, who are keeping the sheep who are trusting in Jehovah blind and ignorant, kind and wise. It is what the elders have to do to keep the people.

 

[Samael_Khan]

I do trust that the elders seemed kind and wise toward you but I don't give credit to the men for that. It was The Holy Spirit. God cares about you.

I am sorry. I can't call the men, who are keeping the sheep who are trusting in Jehovah blind and ignorant, kind and wise. It is what the elders have to do to keep the people.

I would attribute it more to the Law being written in their hearts, but for all I know it is God's Holy Spirit.

When I call them kind and wise, it is with regard to how they treat people even though they are victims of indoctrination themselves. I dont think that they themselves have bad intentions towards others. I think that they have a lot to deal with knowing what happens in the group, knowing the consequences of showing disagreement in the group etc. Sometimes one can't blame people for certain actions when they are in too deep. But that is just my opinion which is affected by the people I know.

 

[savagewind]

The Holy Spirit can go anywhere God will have it. Of course, it can go into a Kingdom Hall! I am just saying that it does not run the Jehovah's Witness' business like they claim it does. Like, if you want to find out what God's Holy Spirit is doing, go to a Kingdom Hall.* Honest to God! I realize that it is not what they teach consciously but it is their own teaching. Ask them if you will. I think that the truth about what they teach is that The HS leads people to them and then takes care of them. Simply put.

*Just so you know. It's sarcasm.

 

[savagewind]

I would attribute it more to the Law being written in their hearts, but for all I know it is God's Holy Spirit.

When I call them kind and wise, it is with regard to how they treat people even though they are victims of indoctrination themselves. I dont think that they themselves have bad intentions towards others. I think that they have a lot to deal with knowing what happens in the group, knowing the consequences of showing disagreement in the group etc. Sometimes one can't blame people for certain actions when they are in too deep. But that is just my opinion which is affected by the people I know.

OK. Individual Jehovah's Witnesses can behave with real kindness. But, sometimes it is an act. They are cleaning themselves on the outside. I think you know that.

My opinion is that they have the Law in their minds. If it was on their heart, they could not be believing in lies.

For, a little leaven ferments the whole batch.

 

[Samael_Khan]

The Holy Spirit can go anywhere God will have it. Of course, it can go into a Kingdom Hall! I am just saying that it does not run the Jehovah's Witness' business like they claim it does. Like, if you want to find out what God's Holy Spirit is doing, go to a Kingdom Hall.* Honest to God! I realize that it is not what they teach consciously but it is their own teaching. Ask them if you will. I think that the truth about what they teach is that The HS leads people to them and then takes care of them. Simply put.

*Just so you know. It's sarcasm.

I am actually thinking these days about the JW concept of the Holy Spirit. It is claimed by them that nobody in the group is inspired. But what is the difference between being guided by the Holy Spirit and inspired by the Holy Spirit, from a scriptural perspective? And if the GB isn't inspired, then why follow them as if they are infallible (as in not disagreeing with the doctrine they teach)?

 

[Samael_Khan]

OK. Individual Jehovah's Witnesses can behave with real kindness. But, sometimes it is an act. They are cleaning themselves on the outside. I think you know that.

My opinion is that they have the Law in their minds. If it was on their heart, they could not be believing in lies.

For, a little leaven ferments the whole batch.

I agree that sometimes it is an act. Such as the love bombing and forever smiling. Some act nice in a Kingdom Hall and act very different at home. I think that all do that to a certain extent because who they really are they cannot suppress for long. Their true nature leaks out. But many are trying to better themselves.

Your second point I tend to not agree with. The law in the heart is naturally doing the right moral thing in certain cases. Being deceived doesn't fall under moral law. For instance, a man from a cannibal nation who does not want to kill people and eat them out of his nature has the law written in his heart.