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Can any JWs answer this?

nPeace

Veteran Member
Thank you for all of the passages. I love reading passages I haven't heard before.
Great! Then by all means find a Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses, and regularly attend the meetings each week, and don't hold back from requesting a free home Bible Study.
Not only will you be reading scriptures you never read before, but you will hear and understand things you never knew before - things that are accurate... unlike what is found written on the page you linked below.

I can reject that which was obviously written by man. If someone were to write a book or letters today and say God dictated to him or her, no one would believe it. It would not be placed in the Bible. Why are these particular books and letters considered to be completely accurate? They were not written at the time of Jesus. They were written later. Many people since the Bible have stated that God has dictated to them. Many were found to be frauds. Just because a group of religious men got together and declared these books to be of God, does not make it so. In fact, Mark was changed. Originally, Jesus did not die on the cross and was not resurrected in Mark. Someone wrote the ending in.
https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org...-of-mark-and-why-it-makes-all-the-difference/
Matthew was the first Gospel written... followed by Luke, then Mark.
Why do you believe that those scholars got it right? Why believe them?
It's strange to me how people doubt a written record, which we have from over a century ago - corroborated by other writers living closer to the events than today's guessers - guessing the best they can, and people prefer to believe the guessers.
Does that not bother you?

Does anyone question that Nebuchadnezzar wrote anything? o_O

And there are many more things. The Bible is not inerrant.
Many more things people say, that may be as far from the truth, as North is to South... I am sure they are.

And I do hear much more hatred toward gay people than toward adulterous or other people who go against the Ten Commandments. It is all over the news constantly. So, I don't know which people you are talking about who care about adultery. I remember a church group called God hates ****. These people were very adamantly hateful which goes against Jesus teaching love. They definitely were not Christians, just haters.
There are many professed Christians.
We know what a Christian is. (Matthew 7:16)

If a "carpenter" turned up at your home, carrying a flame thrower, I'm sure you would be quite nervous, and in a short time, you would certainly know if the guy was a carpenter, or not. ;)

I think people choose to believe what they want, for reasons of convenience. From my experience, the Bible is completely harmonious and complimentary.
I don't see how it's possible to claim to love it, and at the same time pick out parts we like, while discarding other parts. It sounds Pharisaic.

Have you examined the Bible for yourself, in order to determine if is is true?
Do you doubt it's truthfulness? By what means do you determine its reliability or unreliability? Is it based on what "scholars" say?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What is crazy is that I only new of the extent of the child abuse and the child abuse cases once I left the group. Most Witnesses do not know about the child abuse cases and lawsuits because the organisation never told us.
Oh dear! Whenever a request for donations was issued at the meetings of Jehovah's Witnesses it was always stressed for "the world-wide work" and it was assumed by me that it was always for promoting the good news of God's Kingdom by Jesus Christ but I shall confirm that the organization had never and probably has never disclosed that much of a Jehovah's Witness's hard-earned money goes to the organization's defence, not good works.
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
Great! Then by all means find a Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses, and regularly attend the meetings each week, and don't hold back from requesting a free home Bible Study.
Not only will you be reading scriptures you never read before, but you will hear and understand things you never knew before - things that are accurate... unlike what is found written on the page you linked below.

Matthew was the first Gospel written... followed by Luke, then Mark.
Why do you believe that those scholars got it right? Why believe them?
It's strange to me how people doubt a written record, which we have from over a century ago - corroborated by other writers living closer to the events than today's guessers - guessing the best they can, and people prefer to believe the guessers.
Does that not bother you?

Does anyone question that Nebuchadnezzar wrote anything? o_O


Many more things people say, that may be as far from the truth, as North is to South... I am sure they are.


There are many professed Christians.
We know what a Christian is. (Matthew 7:16)

If a "carpenter" turned up at your home, carrying a flame thrower, I'm sure you would be quite nervous, and in a short time, you would certainly know if the guy was a carpenter, or not. ;)

I think people choose to believe what they want, for reasons of convenience. From my experience, the Bible is completely harmonious and complimentary.
I don't see how it's possible to claim to love it, and at the same time pick out parts we like, while discarding other parts. It sounds Pharisaic.

Have you examined the Bible for yourself, in order to determine if is is true?
Do you doubt it's truthfulness? By what means do you determine its reliability or unreliability? Is it based on what "scholars" say?

The big question then is:

On what basis should we accept anything? What method should be used when determining historical truth?

Historical truth is hardly ever set in stone as new evidence sheds light on matters.

Also since you say people believe what they want out of convenience, do you apply that reasoning to yourself as well?

Also fan boys for instance love their stories and characters but they also love picking it apart, therefore loving something and picking it apart isnt contradictory. One can love fiction even if it is not true.
 

Neutral Name

Active Member
Great! Then by all means find a Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses, and regularly attend the meetings each week, and don't hold back from requesting a free home Bible Study.
Not only will you be reading scriptures you never read before, but you will hear and understand things you never knew before - things that are accurate... unlike what is found written on the page you linked below.

Matthew was the first Gospel written... followed by Luke, then Mark.
Why do you believe that those scholars got it right? Why believe them?
It's strange to me how people doubt a written record, which we have from over a century ago - corroborated by other writers living closer to the events than today's guessers - guessing the best they can, and people prefer to believe the guessers.
Does that not bother you?

Does anyone question that Nebuchadnezzar wrote anything? o_O


Many more things people say, that may be as far from the truth, as North is to South... I am sure they are.


There are many professed Christians.
We know what a Christian is. (Matthew 7:16)

If a "carpenter" turned up at your home, carrying a flame thrower, I'm sure you would be quite nervous, and in a short time, you would certainly know if the guy was a carpenter, or not. ;)

I think people choose to believe what they want, for reasons of convenience. From my experience, the Bible is completely harmonious and complimentary.
I don't see how it's possible to claim to love it, and at the same time pick out parts we like, while discarding other parts. It sounds Pharisaic.

Have you examined the Bible for yourself, in order to determine if is is true?
Do you doubt it's truthfulness? By what means do you determine its reliability or unreliability? Is it based on what "scholars" say?


First, I'm not a Christian. I went to the Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses with a friend a few times a long time ago when I was trying to believe in Jesus. I do completely believe in God, though.

Second, I don't believe everything is perfect in the Bible. The Bible is not the inerrant, inspired or infallible word of God. To me, there are problems with quite a few of the things stated even though there are some very good things in it, too.

To answer your question, I don't believe everything everyone writes today either. I don't believe in guessers or guessing from millennia ago or today.

I don't love the Bible. I like some of the Bible. Yes, I doubt the truthfulness of some of it. For example, women being told to stay silent and let men speak. Jesus included women in his life. Obviously, whoever wrote that about women was not a perfect Christian receiving the inspired word of God. Whoops, that's bad, if Paul wasn't right about that, what else wasn't he right about?

Why did Jesus call God father? God is not male or female. I could understand him saying Lord but not father.

The end of the book of Mark was written in after the fact because it did not have the resurrection.

Regarding the last words of Jesus while on the cross, Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34 quote Jesus as crying with a loud voice, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”
Luke 23:46 gives his final words as, “Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit.”
John 19:30 says that the last words were, “It is finished.”
What did Jesus say? Does anyone really know?

In the Old Testament, God goes around killing people. You know, the great flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, the Egyptians chasing the Jews out of Egypt, etc., etc. Yet, God is love. Love doesn't act violently. 1 Corinthians defines love.

I do believe that a lot of the Old Testament people have been proven to be real by archaeologists and much of their written history was proven, too, but, again, if God is love?

The Bible is contradictory.

There are many versions of the Christian Bible with differences. There are even great differences in Bibles used by various Christian denominations. A group of men put the Bible together. First, Jewish rabbis or priests then Christians created their canons. Here is a great run down on canonization of the Bible and differences in Bibles. It is accurate. I know because I have studied this for a few years now.
Development of the Christian biblical canon - Wikipedia

If Jesus was perfect, why are there thousands of denominations. Christians don't even agree with each other. Denominations are a schism in the true church, the body of Christ. And if Jesus was perfect, why didn't he say the things that needed to be said so that people would not pick out different things to believe. If he was God in the flesh, he would have known the sinful nature of man, his pridefulness, selfishness, etc.

Nebuchadnezzar left writings and was recorded by his people, the Babylonians, and was recorded by the Jews and, I think, the Egyptians if I remember correctly. The New Testament does not have proof of any writings before approximately 40 AD and later, depending on which book we are talking about. Things weren't written on stone or cylinder seals then. So, the parchment could have been destroyed or rotted away but one would think that extreme care would have been used during early Christianity to ensure that the scriptures were preserved. Jewish scriptures were. The Gnostic Gospels were. The Dead Sea Scrolls were. They were hidden in caves when needed to protect them. Where are the early Christian writings? I guess the climate in Rome is different than in Israel and the Middle East. Nobody even knows for sure who wrote the four gospels. It wasn't Matthew, Mark, Luke or John. Christians don't believe that but scholars do.

And what about the differences of opinions between James,the brother of Jesus, and Paul? Paul even wrote about it in the New Testament. Who was right? I guess Paul because he won out and his writings are in the New Testament.

I don't study the Bible because I believe I am learning about God. I study it because it may have some spiritual relevance and is a great puzzle to analyze with some good stuff thrown in. I like the love part and the helping others part but some of it? People don't even agree as to whether or not Revelation will come in the future or already did with the early Christian persecutions and John, supposedly, trying to bring some comfort to the early Christians. 666 was supposedly the number of Nero and Nero was the monster rising out of the sea. The below link states it well. It is not a scholarly work but it does state many things I have read many times. So, it, too, is accurate.
Book of Revelation (Apocalypse) written on Patmos island - Greeka.com

There are more things but I'm tired right now so I can't think of what they are.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
First, I'm not a Christian. I went to the Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses with a friend a few times a long time ago when I was trying to believe in Jesus. I do completely believe in God, though.

Second, I don't believe everything is perfect in the Bible. The Bible is not the inerrant, inspired or infallible word of God. To me, there are problems with quite a few of the things stated even though there are some very good things in it, too.

To answer your question, I don't believe everything everyone writes today either. I don't believe in guessers or guessing from millennia ago or today.

I don't love the Bible. I like some of the Bible. Yes, I doubt the truthfulness of some of it. For example, women being told to stay silent and let men speak. Jesus included women in his life. Obviously, whoever wrote that about women was not a perfect Christian receiving the inspired word of God. Whoops, that's bad, if Paul wasn't right about that, what else wasn't he right about?

Why did Jesus call God father? God is not male or female. I could understand him saying Lord but not father.

The end of the book of Mark was written in after the fact because it did not have the resurrection.

Regarding the last words of Jesus while on the cross, Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34 quote Jesus as crying with a loud voice, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”
Luke 23:46 gives his final words as, “Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit.”
John 19:30 says that the last words were, “It is finished.”
What did Jesus say? Does anyone really know?

In the Old Testament, God goes around killing people. You know, the great flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, the Egyptians chasing the Jews out of Egypt, etc., etc. Yet, God is love. Love doesn't act violently. 1 Corinthians defines love.

I do believe that a lot of the Old Testament people have been proven to be real by archaeologists and much of their written history was proven, too, but, again, if God is love?

The Bible is contradictory.

There are many versions of the Christian Bible with differences. There are even great differences in Bibles used by various Christian denominations. A group of men put the Bible together. First, Jewish rabbis or priests then Christians created their canons. Here is a great run down on canonization of the Bible and differences in Bibles. It is accurate. I know because I have studied this for a few years now.
Development of the Christian biblical canon - Wikipedia

If Jesus was perfect, why are there thousands of denominations. Christians don't even agree with each other. Denominations are a schism in the true church, the body of Christ. And if Jesus was perfect, why didn't he say the things that needed to be said so that people would not pick out different things to believe. If he was God in the flesh, he would have known the sinful nature of man, his pridefulness, selfishness, etc.

Nebuchadnezzar left writings and was recorded by his people, the Babylonians, and was recorded by the Jews and, I think, the Egyptians if I remember correctly. The New Testament does not have proof of any writings before approximately 40 AD and later, depending on which book we are talking about. Things weren't written on stone or cylinder seals then. So, the parchment could have been destroyed or rotted away but one would think that extreme care would have been used during early Christianity to ensure that the scriptures were preserved. Jewish scriptures were. The Gnostic Gospels were. The Dead Sea Scrolls were. They were hidden in caves when needed to protect them. Where are the early Christian writings? I guess the climate in Rome is different than in Israel and the Middle East. Nobody even knows for sure who wrote the four gospels. It wasn't Matthew, Mark, Luke or John. Christians don't believe that but scholars do.

And what about the differences of opinions between James,the brother of Jesus, and Paul? Paul even wrote about it in the New Testament. Who was right? I guess Paul because he won out and his writings are in the New Testament.

I don't study the Bible because I believe I am learning about God. I study it because it may have some spiritual relevance and is a great puzzle to analyze with some good stuff thrown in. I like the love part and the helping others part but some of it? People don't even agree as to whether or not Revelation will come in the future or already did with the early Christian persecutions and John, supposedly, trying to bring some comfort to the early Christians. 666 was supposedly the number of Nero and Nero was the monster rising out of the sea. The below link states it well. It is not a scholarly work but it does state many things I have read many times. So, it, too, is accurate.
Book of Revelation (Apocalypse) written on Patmos island - Greeka.com

There are more things but I'm tired right now so I can't think of what they are.
Thanks for sharing.
I could address every part you find a problem, but I feel it may not make much difference, so I will just address the first.

In the same scripture where Paul said women should keep silent in the congregation, he also said those speaking in tongues, and others, should keep silent.
I think one reading the Bible and finding "a problem" need to ask themselves a question - "Do I understand what I am reading?" Then they need to answer as the Ethiopian did in Acts 8:31 “Really, how could I ever do so unless someone guided me?". . .
Apparently it is clear, is it not, that you don't seem to understand what Paul was addressing? Understandably. Yet notice that you assumed he is saying the worst, and object to it

How often will people continue to make that "mistake"?
The scriptures reveal, until God judges them for being willfully without understanding. 2 Thessalonians 1:8
I believe that John 6:44 reveals a lot about why many persons do not understand what seems so straight forward to few.
We have many warnings in scripture (2 Peter 3:15, 16; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12), and the Bible says, we have time to heed them before Jehovah's day arrives. Zephaniah 2, 3
I think we do well to heed those warnings.

Notice that Paul mentioned "keep silent" three times, to three different groups. Why? What was it in relation to? 1 Corinthians 14:26

It is good however that you find some benefit in reading the Bible. There are a great many.
I'm also going to call it a day.
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
Oh dear! Whenever a request for donations was issued at the meetings of Jehovah's Witnesses it was always stressed for "the world-wide work" and it was assumed by me that it was always for promoting the good news of God's Kingdom by Jesus Christ but I shall confirm that the organization had never and probably has never disclosed that much of a Jehovah's Witness's hard-earned money goes to the organization's defence, not good works.

There was one point where we had a donation box for local kingdom hall expenses. So the elders in the cobgregation would take that money and use it for local kingdom hall needs. Then the organisation said that we shouldnt be donating to the local kingdom hall needs but place it in a box in which the money would go directly to the branch and they would decide what to do with the money, so the kingdom hall couldnt be maintanenced until the branch gave us money to buy materials. Then the Kingdom Hall was sold by the organisation. It all happened in recent years and I must check whether it coincides with the big child abuse cases.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I think people choose to believe what they want, for reasons of convenience. From my experience, the Bible is completely harmonious and complimentary.
I don't see how it's possible to claim to love it, and at the same time pick out parts we like, while discarding other parts. It sounds Pharisaic.

Have you examined the Bible for yourself, in order to determine if is is true?
Do you doubt it's truthfulness? By what means do you determine its reliability or unreliability? Is it based on what "scholars" say?

This intrigues me too nPeace....how do people know what to pick out as truth and what to reject as untruth in the Bible? Perhaps it is a case of not "what" you believe...but "who"? :shrug: And on whose authority do they dismiss some parts and accept others? Who do you believe and for what reason?

Apparently it is clear, is it not, that you don't seem to understand what Paul was addressing? Understandably. Yet notice that you assumed he is saying the worst, and object to it

How often will people continue to make that "mistake"?

Excellent point....and one that I see time and again....running away with an idea gleaned from one verse without checking to see if it is taken in context and whether or not it was meant to be understood that way. Also putting today's spin on ancient cultural 'norms'...it just doesn't work.

The scriptures reveal, until God judges them for being willfully without understanding. 2 Thessalonians 1:8
I believe that John 6:44 reveals a lot about why many persons do not understand what seems so straight forward to few.

Yes, wandering about in ignorance as to why God is not talking to them....:facepalm:
As a follow on from John 6:44, Jesus reiterates in verse 65..."This is why I have said to you, no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
Unless we are the kind of people that God wants as a citizen in his Kingdom.....that invitation will never be issued. Who is responsible for the kind of people we turn out to be.....? Not God. o_O

We have many warnings in scripture (2 Peter 3:15, 16; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12), and the Bible says, we have time to heed them before Jehovah's day arrives. Zephaniah 2, 3
I think we do well to heed those warnings.

I am guessing that there will be a lot of people like those mentioned in Matthew 7:21-23....:(

All we can do is to continue to sound that warning in the hope that some may listen.
 

Neutral Name

Active Member
Thanks for sharing.
I could address every part you find a problem, but I feel it may not make much difference, so I will just address the first.

In the same scripture where Paul said women should keep silent in the congregation, he also said those speaking in tongues, and others, should keep silent.
I think one reading the Bible and finding "a problem" need to ask themselves a question - "Do I understand what I am reading?" Then they need to answer as the Ethiopian did in Acts 8:31 “Really, how could I ever do so unless someone guided me?". . .
Apparently it is clear, is it not, that you don't seem to understand what Paul was addressing? Understandably. Yet notice that you assumed he is saying the worst, and object to it

How often will people continue to make that "mistake"?
The scriptures reveal, until God judges them for being willfully without understanding. 2 Thessalonians 1:8
I believe that John 6:44 reveals a lot about why many persons do not understand what seems so straight forward to few.
We have many warnings in scripture (2 Peter 3:15, 16; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12), and the Bible says, we have time to heed them before Jehovah's day arrives. Zephaniah 2, 3
I think we do well to heed those warnings.

Notice that Paul mentioned "keep silent" three times, to three different groups. Why? What was it in relation to? 1 Corinthians 14:26

It is good however that you find some benefit in reading the Bible. There are a great many.
I'm also going to call it a day.


Thanks for all of the answers. You are very kind to take the time to explain your views to me but I do have a few more questions for you.

What about these passages?

Colossians 3:18 “Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.”

Ephesians 5:22-24 “Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the savior of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.”

1 Peter 3
1 Wives, respect and obey your husbands in the same way. Then the husbands who do not obey the word of God will want to know God. They will want to know God because their wives live good lives, even though they say nothing about God.
2 They will see that you live holy lives and respect your husbands.

This last one states that husbands are not necessarily Godly but that the wife should influence the husband with her holiness. So, why is he the leader of the family?

There are quite a few others which state more of the same.

What Does the Bible Say About Man As Head Of Household?
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
This intrigues me too nPeace....how do people know what to pick out as truth and what to reject as untruth in the Bible? Perhaps it is a case of not "what" you believe...but "who"? :shrug: And on whose authority do they dismiss some parts and accept others? Who do you believe and for what reason?

Matthew 7, "By their fruits you will recognize those men."
Have they supported conflicts between Nations, during which their brothers from other countries were killed? 1 John 3:10-15.

Then their beliefs must also be brought into question! 1 Peter 1:22
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Thanks for all of the answers. You are very kind to take the time to explain your views to me but I do have a few more questions for you.

What about these passages?

Colossians 3:18 “Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.”

Ephesians 5:22-24 “Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the savior of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.”

1 Peter 3
1 Wives, respect and obey your husbands in the same way. Then the husbands who do not obey the word of God will want to know God. They will want to know God because their wives live good lives, even though they say nothing about God.
2 They will see that you live holy lives and respect your husbands.

This last one states that husbands are not necessarily Godly but that the wife should influence the husband with her holiness. So, why is he the leader of the family?

There are quite a few others which state more of the same.

What Does the Bible Say About Man As Head Of Household?
I once heard a joke...
A husband said to his wife, "I am the head of this family."
The wife replied, "You are the head, but I am the neck."

Do you get it?
The head can't function without the neck.
Although we can look at that in a positive way, as the two cooperating, the wife had in mind, that she is in control.
It may sound funny at first, but on reflection, it's a serious matter as far as the Bible is concerned.

The Bible gives the answer to your question quite clearly though, in my view.
When reading the Bible, one should keep a general rule in mind. Simply... consider the context - that is, what do the surrounding texts reveal about the verse(s) I am reading?
Hope that's a tip you will utilize in your future reading. It will really enhance your reading and understanding.
To me, the Bible is not as difficult as some make it seem, especially when we apply a second general rule - Be humble (remove the pride), and have an open mind, and honest heart (you'll need to do some honest self-evaluation).
Of course there are other things, but I won't swamp you. :)

It's good to see you have a reference Bible (I'm guessing), as you have corresponding texts.
Colossians 3:18; Ephesians 5:22-24; 1 Peter 3:1, 2

From reading the surrounding verses of these, we see that Paul includes the members of the entire family, and how they contribute to 1. peace between each party, and 2. the honor of God, and to show how far reaching this ought to be, he even extended it to masters and slaves - in other words, employers and employees.

Paul speaks of the peace of the Christ and peace in one body, as well as considering what is pleasing to God - in other words doing all things in harmony with God's will.. to his honor.
They harmonize nicely with
1 Corinthians 11:3-16
3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn, the head of a woman is the man; in turn, the head of the Christ is God. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with something on his head shames his head; 5 but every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered shames her head, for it is one and the same as if she were a woman with a shaved head. 6 For if a woman does not cover herself, she should have her hair cut off; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or shaved, she should be covered. 7 For a man should not have his head covered, as he is God’s image and glory, but the woman is man’s glory. 8 For man did not come from woman, but woman came from man. 9 And what is more, man was not created for the sake of the woman, but woman for the sake of the man. 10 That is why the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head, because of the angels. 11 Besides, in connection with the Lord, neither is woman separate from man nor is man separate from woman. 12 For just as the woman is from the man, so also the man is through the woman; but all things are from God. 13 Judge for yourselves: Is it fitting for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not nature itself teach you that long hair is a dishonor to a man, 15 but if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her? For her hair is given to her instead of a covering. 16 However, if anyone wants to argue in favor of some other custom, we have no other, nor do the congregations of God.

I highlighted what is key.
Primarily, it is the arrangement of God, to his glory and honor, and for peace in the earthly part of God's organization, which must be in harmony with his heavenly organization.
To simplify ... I hope :grimacing:, God's universal sovereignty is being vindicated in part, when we honor him with the "uniting bond of peace". (Ephesians 4:3-6) 3earnestly endeavoring to maintain the oneness of the spirit in the uniting bond of peace. 4One body there is, and one spirit, just as you were called to the one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Notice the oneness, which was evident in the verses that spoke of the the part/role each member plays.
When that peace exists, and is seen by all, it honors God - the God of peace.
This is his will , which will be accomplished - universal peace.

We don't want to see something like this, do we?
0511-1110-3115-1136_Husband_and_Wife_Fighting_over_the_Steering_Wheel_and_Who_Gets_to_Drive_clipart_image.jpg


What are your thoughts? :)
By the way, thanks for asking.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Yes. But the intricacies and and meaning of each verse and passage are interpreted in the light of a foundational scripture. The discussions that you as a Witness would have with Trinitarians is a good example of this.
Recently a woman said she believes Jesus is God because Jesus was ' in the beginning '.
To me that is Not deep thinking because only God was ' before ' the beginning as per Psalms 90:2.
So, pre-human heavenly Jesus was Not ' before ' the beginning as his God was ' before the beginning '.- Rev. 4:11
Plus, the resurrected by his God, the heavenly Jesus still thinks he has a God over him according to Revelation 3:12.
So, I see No intricacies....of each verse and passage.....proving a trinity or a triad god.
I see harmony between the un-created Creator and the first of his creation - Revelation 3:14.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Oh dear! Whenever a request for donations was issued at the meetings of Jehovah's Witnesses it was always stressed for "the world-wide work" and it was assumed by me that it was always for promoting the good news of God's Kingdom by Jesus Christ but I shall confirm that the organization had never and probably has never disclosed that much of a Jehovah's Witness's hard-earned money goes to the organization's defence, not good works.
Seems to me you have Not researched ' disaster relief ' as found at www.jw.org or www.jwbroadcasting __________
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Seems to me you have Not researched ' disaster relief ' as found at www.jw.org or www.jwbroadcasting __________
That sounds like a joke! Yes, to pay a lawyer's high fees is a sick joke. But, I am sorry. I can't put it in that category of kind disaster relief.

Jehovah has revealed a little bit of wisdom to me regarding this discussion.

It is a rule that a man with an accusation against him can not serve as an elder. But, the whole governing body has many accusations against it and those men are still serving as elders.

1 Timothy 3:7
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
Recently a woman said she believes Jesus is God because Jesus was ' in the beginning '.
To me that is Not deep thinking because only God was ' before ' the beginning as per Psalms 90:2.
So, pre-human heavenly Jesus was Not ' before ' the beginning as his God was ' before the beginning '.- Rev. 4:11
Plus, the resurrected by his God, the heavenly Jesus still thinks he has a God over him according to Revelation 3:12.
So, I see No intricacies....of each verse and passage.....proving a trinity or a triad god.
I see harmony between the un-created Creator and the first of his creation - Revelation 3:14.

Rev 4:11 says that God is worthy to receive glory and honour and power because he created all things. In Colossians Jesus is the image of God (what image means depends on bias) firstborn over all creation (what firstborn means depends on bias), everything was created by him and through him (verse 16) (not just through him) and verse 17 says that he was before all things. Since Jesus created all things someone could use Revelation 4:11 to say that Jesus is worthy of worship.

Then there is the whole meaning of Prototokos.

The Trinity idea results from the problem with Jesus having the creative attributes of God but also having a God.

Then Revelation 3:14 certainly adds to your case but then Trinitarians translate that differently.

So yes there are intricacies otherwise there wouldn't be your view, the Unitarian view and the other views, as various verses cause confusion if a person is assuming that the Bible books harmonize with each other. That is why there are so many different views. If there was no confusion then there wouldn't be a debate, much like there isn't much of a debate about whether Jesus died and was resurrected among professed Christians.

So, yes, you see the harmony but the Trinitarians do not see what you are seeing. I personally do not understand why neither side can see from the viewpoint of the other.

Personally, the Western Trinity makes no sense from the Bible scriptures to me. It is eisegesis. The Eastern orthodox Trinity makes sense as I can see how that could possibly come from the Bible except for the idea that all three had equal wills. But there is a level of eisegesis in that.

Your view makes sense but there are a view problematic scriptures which are difficult to explain directly from the text without eisegesis, such as the Holy Spirit being described as a person, Timothy calling Jesus God, Jesus being creator of all things as explained above, etc. Even if God just created through Jesus there is the whole question of why he had to create that way and what "through" Jesus actually means.

By the way, do you think that there is merit in using the relationship between Joseph and Pharoah to describe the JW view of the relationship between Jesus and God? (Genesis 41: 37-57)

One thing this forum has shown me is that most Trinitarians don't even know what they mean by saying the Trinity. Most people in the real world don't even know why they believe it and how to draw it from scripture. Often they believe in Modalism or some other non-Trinitarian belief. They don't even know that there are two official Trinities and that the Western version is a heresy from the Nicaean one. They themselves are confused.
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
Seems to me you have Not researched ' disaster relief ' as found at www.jw.org or www.jwbroadcasting __________

We know that the organisation spends money on disaster relief. But we don't actually know how much money the organisation receives and what they spend it on. It could be that they are receiving much more money or less than what the disaster relief costs. We do know for a fact that they are spending money to pay out lawsuits. And the recent decrease in publications, the releasing of Bethel family members, the selling of Kingdom Halls around the world coincide with recent lawsuits. Although I cannot see how the lawsuits affect the monetary income that badly. Maybe they aren't receiving that much donations? Nonetheless, we know for a fact that they are spending money paying out lawsuits. The question is: if they aren't using donation money for them then where are they getting the money from?
 
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