Samael_Khan
Goosebender
Many people are trying, and their work has produced great results, and those who were helped are greatful.
So it is worth a shot. Helping one person at least means that trying was worth it.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Can any JWs answer this?
- Thread starter Neutral Name
- Start date
-
- Tags
- cult j w jehovahs witness
Many people are trying, and their work has produced great results, and those who were helped are greatful.
So it is worth a shot. Helping one person at least means that trying was worth it.
Road Less Traveled
Active Member
Certainly. As kindly as can and without force.
Can’t just grab someone and lock them up in solitary confinement until coming to their right sense.
First, if one wants to know more of JW teachings try www.jw.org
Kind of like if you want to know what a Buddhist believes go to a Buddhist.
If you want to know what a Catholic believes go to a Catholic.
I find in Scripture after Jesus was baptized even family members thought he had gone mad - John 10:20; Mark 3:21.
So, even today people often do Not know all about the marvelous future the Bible holds out for us.
Even in Jesus' day people fell away from him. Judas Iscariot for example.
Jesus pointed out the trouble in the congregation such as the one mentioned at Revelation 2:14, 20.
People cause error and division. Division such as Jesus talked about at Matthew 10:34-39; Matthew 10:21-22.
I never heard of excommunication as meaning to hate a person as an enemy, but to bring them to their senses.
Since Jesus talked about committing the unforgivable sin at Matthew 12:32 then it is 'more' than about forgiveness.
How people react to Jesus' teachings is a division of hearts - Luke 11:23; Luke 14:26-27.
So, I find we are to love God (His Word/Scripture) by Not putting people ahead of Christ's teachings.
In other words, we are to love God more and love others to a lesser degree. Lesser degree is a shade of hate.
Love to a lesser degree would Not mean to hate as some would hate an enemy but to put God first.
Neutral Name
Active Member
Thank you. I agree and understand.
Neutral Name
Active Member
I didn't know that Jesus used the word repent more than love but He did say that love was the most important thing.
I have read that Ellen G. White was found to have copied information from other people. She did not actually prophesy. I did go to a SDA church a few times but they always seemed to talk about end times and nothing else. So, I stopped going.
I would say that being a primitive Christian is the best thing. Read the Bible and don't let the wolves in sheep's clothing lie to you. There are so many of them. I love your outlook.
Bless you, my brother.
Neutral Name
Active Member
Thanks for the jw.org. I've saved it as a favorite so i can study the beliefs.
@Diana Montgomery
The truth is...people will believe whatever they want to believe and will justify all manner of reasons and excuses not to follow any human teacher or leader....and to find fault with those who claim to be the "true Christians" (wheat among the weeds) but the fact remains that God has used human leaders all through the history of his people, both before and after the formation of his nation of Israel. We just have to identify them by the criteria given in the scriptures. Expecting them to be perfect is unrealistic. Jesus' own apostles were flawed characters like the rest of us. They made mistakes and errors in judgment, but Jesus patiently continued to teach them. He was the one who told them about the "helper" the holy spirit which would give them spiritual insight and gifts, but it didn't make them perfect.
Christ was a perfect human leader who appointed other human leaders to finish what he started...they were not perfect and he never expected them to be. In Matthew 24:45 it says that he would appoint a "faithful and discreet slave" to "feed" his entire household their "food at the proper time". Jesus told Peter to "feed" his sheep. (John 21:15-17) This was 'spiritual' food, but it was not served all at once, understanding came gradually, and that "food" sustained the spiritual health of Christ's entire household of workers here on earth in his long absence.
He said that "by their fruits" we would recognize those who truly follow Christ. It was not by their imperfections, because it is impossible for humans to be perfect in this world....but the ones that Jesus will recognize as his own will be defined by what they "don't" do as much as what they do. (Matthew 7:21-23)
1) The one command of Jesus that no church can fulfill in the same manner as Christ's first disciples did, was the 'preaching of the good news of God's kingdom'. It was not optional.
Since Jesus said he would back this work, we would see only his true disciples actively participating in it. (Matthew 28:19-20; Matthew 24:14; Matthew 10:11-14) Christendom has no idea what God's Kingdom is, let alone preach to the world about it consistently on a global scale.
2) Another identifying mark would be obedience to all of Christ's commands, so along with the global preaching, would be the love and unity among the brotherhood, not segregated by race, social distinctions, language or politics. (John 13:34-35; 1 Corinthians 1:10; Matthew 5:43-44)
The churches of Christendom can barely agree congregation to congregation, let alone on an international scale.
3) You should not see any genuine Christian with a weapon designed to kill other human beings, especially in a military setting. If we are to love our enemies, then we have no excuse to kill them or even to do them harm. (2 Corinthians 10:3-5; Romans 12:17-21) God has not sanctioned a war since the days when his nation were defending their God-given land. The biggest war-mongers on earth are those who stole land from their rightful owners. They are also the ones who profit most by the sale of weapons.
4) We are to be "no part of the world"....meaning that we do not participate or meddle in its political affairs because of who is identified as the power behind human rulership. (John 18:36; John 15:18-21; 1 John 5:19; Luke 4:5-8) A true Christian is a citizen of God's kingdom, so they cannot pledge allegiance to any human government. Nationalism and Christianity are incompatible. Christianity has no nationality.
5) Jesus' teachings on sexual immorality and marriage and divorce cannot be watered down because of the rampant immoral standards of the world. So again we should see a steadfast sticking to Jesus' teachings on these things. (Mark 10:6-12)
So there you have it. Real Love is demonstrated in all the ways that please God, rather than appeals to human thinking and selfishness.
If the devil can make the son of God look bad...imagine what he can do with imperfect humans......"by their fruits you will recognize them"....not by the twisted horror stories you hear from opposers. If you want to know about anyone...go to the source, not to their opposers who will have a million excuses not to recognize them.
The twisted stories are a dime a dozen....Jesus and his apostles had to endure them too, but one thing that Jesus said stands out....
"Keep in mind the word I said to you: A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have observed my word, they will also observe yours."
Nothing will stop a true disciple from gaining a knowledge of the truth, no matter what anyone says. (John 6:65) The "crusaders" here are under a delusion if they think that any 'sheep-like' person will swallow the distorted half truths presented on internet forums as facts. Jesus will lead his sheep into the right pen in spite all attempts to dissuade them.
One day soon, I believe that we will all know for sure who were "doing the will of the Father"......some will be shocked to find that they never were. (Matthew 7:21-23)
The opposers here would do well to pay attention to the words of Gamaliel in the first century, when the Jews tried to silence Christ's disciples and to dissuade others from listening to them....he said....
"So under the present circumstances, I say to you, do not meddle with these men, but let them alone. For if this scheme or this work is from men, it will be overthrown; 39 but if it is from God, you will not be able to overthrow them. Otherwise, you may even be found fighters against God himself.” (Acts of the Apostles 5:38-39)
Wise words I think.....
The truth is...people will believe whatever they want to believe and will justify all manner of reasons and excuses not to follow any human teacher or leader....and to find fault with those who claim to be the "true Christians" (wheat among the weeds) but the fact remains that God has used human leaders all through the history of his people, both before and after the formation of his nation of Israel. We just have to identify them by the criteria given in the scriptures. Expecting them to be perfect is unrealistic. Jesus' own apostles were flawed characters like the rest of us. They made mistakes and errors in judgment, but Jesus patiently continued to teach them. He was the one who told them about the "helper" the holy spirit which would give them spiritual insight and gifts, but it didn't make them perfect.
Christ was a perfect human leader who appointed other human leaders to finish what he started...they were not perfect and he never expected them to be. In Matthew 24:45 it says that he would appoint a "faithful and discreet slave" to "feed" his entire household their "food at the proper time". Jesus told Peter to "feed" his sheep. (John 21:15-17) This was 'spiritual' food, but it was not served all at once, understanding came gradually, and that "food" sustained the spiritual health of Christ's entire household of workers here on earth in his long absence.
He said that "by their fruits" we would recognize those who truly follow Christ. It was not by their imperfections, because it is impossible for humans to be perfect in this world....but the ones that Jesus will recognize as his own will be defined by what they "don't" do as much as what they do. (Matthew 7:21-23)
1) The one command of Jesus that no church can fulfill in the same manner as Christ's first disciples did, was the 'preaching of the good news of God's kingdom'. It was not optional.
Since Jesus said he would back this work, we would see only his true disciples actively participating in it. (Matthew 28:19-20; Matthew 24:14; Matthew 10:11-14) Christendom has no idea what God's Kingdom is, let alone preach to the world about it consistently on a global scale.
2) Another identifying mark would be obedience to all of Christ's commands, so along with the global preaching, would be the love and unity among the brotherhood, not segregated by race, social distinctions, language or politics. (John 13:34-35; 1 Corinthians 1:10; Matthew 5:43-44)
The churches of Christendom can barely agree congregation to congregation, let alone on an international scale.
3) You should not see any genuine Christian with a weapon designed to kill other human beings, especially in a military setting. If we are to love our enemies, then we have no excuse to kill them or even to do them harm. (2 Corinthians 10:3-5; Romans 12:17-21) God has not sanctioned a war since the days when his nation were defending their God-given land. The biggest war-mongers on earth are those who stole land from their rightful owners. They are also the ones who profit most by the sale of weapons.
4) We are to be "no part of the world"....meaning that we do not participate or meddle in its political affairs because of who is identified as the power behind human rulership. (John 18:36; John 15:18-21; 1 John 5:19; Luke 4:5-8) A true Christian is a citizen of God's kingdom, so they cannot pledge allegiance to any human government. Nationalism and Christianity are incompatible. Christianity has no nationality.
5) Jesus' teachings on sexual immorality and marriage and divorce cannot be watered down because of the rampant immoral standards of the world. So again we should see a steadfast sticking to Jesus' teachings on these things. (Mark 10:6-12)
So there you have it. Real Love is demonstrated in all the ways that please God, rather than appeals to human thinking and selfishness.
If the devil can make the son of God look bad...imagine what he can do with imperfect humans......"by their fruits you will recognize them"....not by the twisted horror stories you hear from opposers. If you want to know about anyone...go to the source, not to their opposers who will have a million excuses not to recognize them.
The twisted stories are a dime a dozen....Jesus and his apostles had to endure them too, but one thing that Jesus said stands out....
"Keep in mind the word I said to you: A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have observed my word, they will also observe yours."
Nothing will stop a true disciple from gaining a knowledge of the truth, no matter what anyone says. (John 6:65) The "crusaders" here are under a delusion if they think that any 'sheep-like' person will swallow the distorted half truths presented on internet forums as facts. Jesus will lead his sheep into the right pen in spite all attempts to dissuade them.
One day soon, I believe that we will all know for sure who were "doing the will of the Father"......some will be shocked to find that they never were. (Matthew 7:21-23)
The opposers here would do well to pay attention to the words of Gamaliel in the first century, when the Jews tried to silence Christ's disciples and to dissuade others from listening to them....he said....
"So under the present circumstances, I say to you, do not meddle with these men, but let them alone. For if this scheme or this work is from men, it will be overthrown; 39 but if it is from God, you will not be able to overthrow them. Otherwise, you may even be found fighters against God himself.” (Acts of the Apostles 5:38-39)
Wise words I think.....
Last edited:
nPeace
Veteran Member
Thanks for trying to hear from one of Jehovah's Witnesses. I think it is always best to try to hear from the source, as you will hear from other non-JWs as well, who may or may not give accurate info.
I think my brother @URAVIP2ME - one of JWs - gave the right advise.
I don't know what it is you heard, as I don't read anything an ex-JW has to say.
As we know, persons who feel bitter about, or toward, someone or something, due to their feelings, often distort the truth, by leaving out truthful details, while presenting incomplete complaints.
So feel free to search the website jw.org, which is made easy to navigate.
You can search our online library specifically.
Concerning the name Jehovah, you can see Why does the New World Translation use the form “Jehovah”?
Also...
Jehovah - Wikipedia
Jehovah (/dʒɪˈhoʊvə/ ji-HOH-və) is a Latinization of the Hebrew יְהֹוָה, one vocalization of the Tetragrammaton יהוה (YHWH), the proper name of the God of Israel in the Hebrew Bible[
Most scholars believe "Jehovah" (also transliterated as "Yehowah") to be a hybrid form derived by combining the Latin letters JHVH with the vowels of Adonai. Some hold that there is evidence that a form of the Tetragrammaton similar to Jehovah may have been in use in Semitic and Greek phonetic texts and artifacts from Late Antiquity. Others say that it is the pronunciation Yahweh that is testified in both Christian and pagan texts of the early Christian era.
Karaite Jews, as proponents of the rendering Jehovah, state that although the original pronunciation of יהוה has been obscured by disuse of the spoken name according to oral Rabbinic law, well-established English transliterations of other Hebrew personal names are accepted in normal usage, such as Joshua, Jeremiah, Isaiah or Jesus, for which the original pronunciations may be unknown. They also point out that "the English form Jehovah is quite simply an Anglicized form of Yehovah," and preserves the four Hebrew consonants "YHVH" (with the introduction of the "J" sound in English). Some argue that Jehovah is preferable to Yahweh, based on their conclusion that the Tetragrammaton was likely tri-syllabic originally, and that modern forms should therefore also have three syllables.
...[Biblical scholar Francis B.] Dennio argued that the form "Jehovah" is not a barbarism, but is the best English form available, being that it has for centuries gathered the necessary connotations and associations for valid use in English.
A question... or questions we can ask here, are, if using the J in the name is wrong - which is not the case - , then would that not create a problem for all those whose name contain the J - Joshua, Jonathan, Jeremiah...?
Do persons use the J, in those names, or do they pronounce them with the Y, and in the Hebrew form?
We need to be consistent.
Some prefer to use Yahweh for the name of God.
While some don't use the name at all, but rather use titles, such as God, or Lord.
It is important to note though that Lord and God are not names. They are titles, just like Almighty and Sovereign.
So whereas God has many titles, just as we do, he has one name.
For example, we may have many titles such as, Mister, Master, Teacher, etc. but one name.
I hope this was useful in some way.
I noted from the video her parents weren’t even allowed to check their daughter was ok.
That’s disgusting as not all non-minors are independent enough to make it on their own.
She sure had a lot of compulsion to return to JWs.
And you believe all the things presented on internet forums as gospel truth do you?
I didn't watch the video, but as one who has been in a similar situation myself, I can vouch for the fact that no child of a JW who is in genuine need of help because of mental health issues or any other kind of health concern for their child's welfare, would walk away if they were asked for help. The kind of help offered would be entirely dependent upon the attitude of the child and the kind of help sought. e.g we would not respond to a cry for help if someone was being hounded by an unpaid drug dealer.
My own granddaughter was disfellowshipped and chose to live a very immoral life. Her choice of a partner was a bad decision and he mistreated her terribly to the point of her having a nervous breakdown. After 5 years of drug abuse and being covered in tattoos, my granddaughter was pregnant and alone with nowhere to go; her parents saw to it that she had all the help she needed to recover from her illness and to deliver a healthy baby. They did not however condone her lifestyle in any way, and my granddaughter saw clearly that her pitiful state was all her own fault. Like the prodigal son, 'she came to her senses' and her parents took her back home and cared for her and their grandson. She is now back in the fold, happily married to a fellow believer. The little one is thriving. Disfellowshipping is designed to make people understand that they can't have their cake and eat it too. Its a good lesson IMO.
Jesus said...."as you judge, so will you be judged". You don't have all the facts in a one sided story, so best to reserve judgment unless you hear both sides.....since that is highly unlikely to happen.....what are you really inviting on yourself?
Are you denying that the video is a JW production?And you believe all the things presented on internet forums as gospel truth do you?
I didn't watch the video, but as one who has been in a similar situation myself, I can vouch for the fact that no child of a JW who is in genuine need of help because of mental health issues or any other kind of health concern for their child's welfare, would walk away if they were asked for help. The kind of help offered would be entirely dependent upon the attitude of the child and the kind of help sought. e.g we would not respond to a cry for help if someone was being hounded by an unpaid drug dealer.
My own granddaughter was disfellowshipped and chose to live a very immoral life. Her choice of a partner was a bad decision and he mistreated her terribly to the point of her having a nervous breakdown. After 5 years of drug abuse and being covered in tattoos, my granddaughter was pregnant and alone with nowhere to go; her parents saw to it that she had all the help she needed to recover from her illness and to deliver a healthy baby. They did not however condone her lifestyle in any way, and my granddaughter saw clearly that her pitiful state was all her own fault. Like the prodigal son, 'she came to her senses' and her parents took her back home and cared for her and their grandson. She is now back in the fold, happily married to a fellow believer. The little one is thriving. Disfellowshipping is designed to make people understand that they can't have their cake and eat it too. Its a good lesson IMO.
Jesus said...."as you judge, so will you be judged". You don't have all the facts in a one sided story, so best to reserve judgment unless you hear both sides.....since that is highly unlikely to happen.....what are you really inviting on yourself?
I am not denying anything...I said I didn't watch the video, assuming that you were speaking about the one mentioned in the OP.....but if its the JW video, then I am sure it will be picked to pieces. People will find fault because that is all they look for.
My own personal experience is that following the Bible's counsel on discipline always works for the benefit of humble ones. Proud and haughty ones...not so much.
The Prodigal Son is a good example of tough love. The father did not argue with his son, nor did he plead with him not to leave....but simply gave him his inheritance and let him go. It was only when he hit rock bottom after his money ran out, that "he came to his senses" and realized what he had done. A humble return to his father was a cause for joy, not merely because he came home, but because he came home with a completely new appreciation for what he left.
If you don't like being told what to do, then I don't believe that you can call yourself a Christian. You cannot be a Christian in isolation, nor is there scope for doing your own thing. You must be part of the brotherhood that Christ established. (Hebrews 10:24-25) He put men in charge of that arrangement.
1 Corinthians 5:9-13....Paul wrote...
"In my letter I wrote you to stop keeping company with sexually immoral people, 10 not meaning entirely with the sexually immoral people of this world or the greedy people or extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, you would actually have to get out of the world. 11 But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.”
You will notice that God leaves the judging of wrongdoers 'inside' the congregations to appointed elders, whilst he judges those outside. The removal of "wicked" ones from the congregation is their duty. "Wicked" in this setting is someone who shows no repentance and who refuses to acknowledge that the discipline received is deserved.
Hebrews 13:17....
"Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over you as those who will render an account, so that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you."
We are advised to be submissive to those who take the lead....as these will themselves render an account to God for the way they have cared for the congregation and disciplined those who were unrepentant. It is their responsibility to keep the congregation free of dissent and rebelliousness. (2 John 9-11)They will answer to God for shirking that responsibility....as surely as they will answer to God for abusing their authority.
A wrong assumption on your part. I quoted the poster whose video I was referring to
If there were no fault in it nothing would be found. As there was clear fault in it shame on you for not addressing the problem
A straw men to deflect from the problem, nowhere did I claim to be Christian.
First of all it is Paul’s mistake to practice religious compulsion against the sexually immoral to the point he wouldn’t even eat with them.
Second of all there is no commandment there to avoid checking on the social welfare of the immoral, unlike in the JW video. Besides in Paul’s time prior to the industrial revolution it wasn’t possible to ensure the welfare of everyone, but today there is no such excuse for it.
No I will notice men leaving the judging of those inside the congregation to elders, and as far as that goes I couldn’t care less who they chuck out of their church, so long as they fulfill their social responsibilities to their fellow human beings when doing so.
In other words you can consider someone a non JW, but you should still be checking up on their welfare even if they are a non JW as you still owe them family responsibility.
Last edited:
Samael_Khan
Goosebender
You do realise I gave her the source right? I gave her links to the JWs official website.
All the links I gave were links to videos from the JW.org or JW broadcasting website, an actual official government website and a youtube video of an actual JW video.
Last edited:
Samael_Khan
Goosebender
And you believe all the things presented on internet forums as gospel truth do you?
I didn't watch the video, but as one who has been in a similar situation myself, I can vouch for the fact that no child of a JW who is in genuine need of help because of mental health issues or any other kind of health concern for their child's welfare, would walk away if they were asked for help. The kind of help offered would be entirely dependent upon the attitude of the child and the kind of help sought. e.g we would not respond to a cry for help if someone was being hounded by an unpaid drug dealer.
My own granddaughter was disfellowshipped and chose to live a very immoral life. Her choice of a partner was a bad decision and he mistreated her terribly to the point of her having a nervous breakdown. After 5 years of drug abuse and being covered in tattoos, my granddaughter was pregnant and alone with nowhere to go; her parents saw to it that she had all the help she needed to recover from her illness and to deliver a healthy baby. They did not however condone her lifestyle in any way, and my granddaughter saw clearly that her pitiful state was all her own fault. Like the prodigal son, 'she came to her senses' and her parents took her back home and cared for her and their grandson. She is now back in the fold, happily married to a fellow believer. The little one is thriving. Disfellowshipping is designed to make people understand that they can't have their cake and eat it too. Its a good lesson IMO.
Jesus said...."as you judge, so will you be judged". You don't have all the facts in a one sided story, so best to reserve judgment unless you hear both sides.....since that is highly unlikely to happen.....what are you really inviting on yourself?
If you want to prove a point then you better know what you are trying to make a case against. All the links I gave were from the official JW website, the JW broadcasting website, an official government website and a Youtube link to an actual video you and I both know were shown at conventions.
Samael_Khan
Goosebender
I can give you a link to a psychology website (not ex-JW one) which shows the negative effects of shunning if you wish. Or you can look it up for yourself.
Samael_Khan
Goosebender
Just as a reminder Diana: please note that I already gave you the links to the official JW website and I said it is JW.org. The JW's didn't read my links or my reasoning on the matters raised in the OP. And what is discussed at the ARC regarding policy wont be found on the website as the Shepherd the Flock book and the letters to the elders aren't made known to the regular JWs. You can just go speak to a regular JW elder at a Kingdom Hall and ask them and he will tell you as much. The ARC investigation is actually on youtube and it would be good to watch that. The document I gave you a link to is a summary of their findings because of that investigation. Also Jeffrey Jackson, governing body member of the JWs is questioned in the investigation.
I agree with the JWs here that to find out beliefs one has to go to the groups official line of communication, in the case the website, which is why i told you about it. But one must also check out opposing views because for all you know the believers could be deceiving you. That has to be done with everything and everyone.
If one doubts the ARCs conclusions then one has to give reason why that government and the JW elders and Jackson are lying.
Samael_Khan
Goosebender
Yeah. She did have a lot of compulsion to return. It makes no sense why shunning would be loving and why someone returning to God is not due to belief in God but because of bullying by the family.
Also note that the video is from the JWs official website.
Samael_Khan
Goosebender
This is the key point of the whole OP.
Shunning is obviously unloving as many people have committed suicide because of it. But you wouldn't accept the sources supplying evidence of this because you just dismiss anything said against the JWs as apostate propoganda. Which is obviously bias. There is too much proof for this. All JWs are held responsible. I would have probably done it as well if i eas still indoctrinated.
The protection of pedophiles through the use of the two witness rule and not reporting 1006 people either reported or suspected to be pedophiles to the police shows the organisations negligence and that they dont care that much about children being abused. This clearly is not loving. And obviously it is damning against the organisation and not you or most other JWs as a person. I am sure that you would hate pedophilia.
And the fact that you wont even address the issues involved but use red herring and strawman fallacies does a disservice to your faith. Truth stands up to scrutiny. So you shouldnt be afraid to be honest with yourself and others and address the issues.