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Featured Can any JWs answer this?

Discussion in 'Religions Q&A' started by Neutral Name, Jul 20, 2019.

  1. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Thank you for your reply.
    Gill, Calvin or Luther, etc. teachings can be compared by using a comprehensive concordance to see if what they said lines up with Scripture.
    Since biblical light grows brighter with the passing of time - Proverbs 4:18; Daniel 12:4,9 - then we should expect to know more with the passing of time.
    A Bible concordance helps us travel to-and-fro through the pages of Scripture as never before in history.
    In Scripture we are interested in 1st-century Christian culture as found in Scripture.
    However, we are Not looking for cultural bias, but what we can really learn from the Bible.
     
  2. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Seems to me the talk you heard might have been about one of the OT accounts.
    Sometimes there are talks about Moses, King David, Abraham, etc.
    I'm sure if you go to www.jw.org you will see the role Jesus plays.
    JW's go along with what Jesus said at John 17:6 A; John 17:26.
     
  3. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I'll try to find your new thread, thank you for the invitation.
     
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  4. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    We can definitely learn from the Bible. And concordances are awesome.

    The Bible is always the foundation to compare to but various interpretations do arise nevertheless. It seems the different interpretations of the Bible arise because different groups use the same verses but use different ones as foundational, so that all the other scriptures are interpreted in its light.

    If i remember correctly, the first couple of chapters of Proverbs speaks about behaviour and not following wicked behaviour but the good. So then doesnt that mean that Proverbs 4:18 is referring to behaviour rather than understanding of scripture? ( which makes sense since our behaviour from baptism onward does progress with new wisdom and understanding)
     
  5. Neutral Name

    Neutral Name Active Member

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    I checked jw.org.

    I Like that you believe the below.

    Jehovah’s Witnesses Don’t Call Their Meeting Place a Church but “Kingdom Hall of Jehovah’s Witnesses”
    In the Bible, the Greek term that is sometimes translated “church” refers to a group of worshippers, not to the building they meet in.

    Jehovah’s Witnesses Maintain Political Neutrality

    Our relationships with others. Jesus commanded: “You must love your neighbor as yourself.”

    Our unity. We are globally united in our beliefs. (1 Corinthians 1:10) We also work hard to have no social, ethnic, racial, or class divisions. (Acts 10:34, 35; James 2:4) Our unity allows for personal choice, though. Each Witness makes decisions in harmony with his or her own Bible-trained conscience.—Romans 14:1-4; Hebrews 5:14.

    I, also, probably agree with the below but I would say that you aren't really Christians. It is back to what I said. I like a lot of the philosophies of Jesus but can't can't accept certain teachings in the New Testament.
    So, I am not a Christian. To me, you are somewhere in between Christian and Jewish.

    What Do Jehovah’s Witnesses Believe?

    "God. We worship the one true and Almighty God, the Creator, whose name is Jehovah. (Psalm 83:18; Revelation 4:11) He is the God of Abraham, Moses, and Jesus.—Exodus 3:6; 32:11; John 20:17."

    "Jesus. We follow the teachings and example of Jesus Christ and honor him as our Savior and as the Son of God. (Matthew 20:28; Acts 5:31) Thus, we are Christians. (Acts 11:26)

    However, we have learned from the Bible that Jesus is not Almighty God and that there is no Scriptural basis for the Trinity doctrine.—John 14:28."


    I don't believe the below at all.

    Family. We adhere to God’s original standard of marriage as the union of one man and one woman, with sexual immorality being the only valid basis for divorce. (Matthew 19:4-9) We are convinced that the wisdom found in the Bible helps families to succeed.—Ephesians 5:⁠22–6:1.

    If God is love, she loves love. She would prefer two people of the same sex be together in love than two people of the opposite be together without love. It is not as important which sexes are together as that there is love. That's one of the things I can't accept in most Christian denominations. I do like the denominations who are not that way.
     
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  6. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    May I ask, what to you is a Christian? How do you identify a Christian, and who determines what a Christian is?

    So, I take it you don't believe the Bible tells us how God wants us to live. In other words, you don't believe the Bible is the word of God?
    Jehovah's Witnesses do.
     
  7. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    My questions to you would be:

    On what basis do you believe a system of beliefs?

    If God created man and woman with sexual organs that fit like lock and key with each other, then why would it be unjust for him to request that his creation stick to using their bodies for the reason he made them? And why wouldnt it make sense for him to do this?

    What are the consequences for only divorcing in the case of sexual immorality? (The JW belief is more complicated than this. In certain cases one is free to divorce but isnt free to marry afterwards.) For instance if a husband or wife is physically abusive, do you think it would be ok for them to divorce and why?

    Your points on them not being christian is interesting. Isnt a group being a Christian based on what the Bible says? If one can prove their "unchristian" beliefs on the Bible then what makes them non christian? Or are you saying that JWs only accept certain teachings and are thus selective?

    When it comes to unity of belief, do you think that the end justifies the means? In this case one isn't allowed to have certain beliefs that disagree. As opposed to say certain baptists churches in which the pastor asks at the end of the service whether the audience agrees with him or has scriptural support to say that what he is teaching is wrong.

    When Jesus said love your neighbour as yourself, do you see any contradictions between what JWs say and what they practice?

    Regarding family: do you think that there are any conditions under which a family can be broken up?
     
  8. Neutral Name

    Neutral Name Active Member

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    May I ask, what to you is a Christian? How do you identify a Christian, and who determines what a Christian is?

    To me, a Christian is someone who follows Jesus. If someone does not follow Jesus but has their own beliefs, they cannot be a Christian. That seems pretty simple to me. How can you be a Christian if you don't believe in Jesus?

    So, I take it you don't believe the Bible tells us how God wants us to live. In other words, you don't believe the Bible is the word of God?

    No, I don't believe everything in the Bible. That is why I am not a Christian.

    Things Jesus changed:

    John 7:22 Yet, because Moses gave you circumcision (though actually it did not come from Moses, but from the patriarchs), you circumcise a boy on the Sabbath.

    Mark 7:19 all foods are clean

    Luke 6:2 work on the Sabbath

    Matt 27:51 Jesus is the sacrifice. So, sacrifices at the alter are no longer required.

    Matt 12:8 Access to God would no longer be mediated by the regulations of the Mosaic Covenant, but by those of the New Covenant

    To me, also, many "Christians" seem to pick and choose what they want to believe. For example, "Christians" who hate homosexuals but don't care if other people commit adultery which is one of the Ten Commandments. They seem to want to hate which is the exact opposite of what Jesus taught. How, then, are they Christians?

    Matthew 22:36-40
    36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
    37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’
    38 This is the first and greatest commandment.
    39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’
    40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
     
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  9. nPeace

    nPeace Veteran Member

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    I agree. Only, it also involves following Jesus' teachings. Very important.
    I guess you had that in mind.

    Fair enough.

    Why things were not to be the same...

    Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed. He will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."

    Genesis 22:18 And through your offspring all nations of the earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice."

    Galatians Chapter 3 (Reading the entire chapter is a must)
    Galatians 3:8 The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and foretold the gospel to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you."
    Galatians 3:9 So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
    Galatians 3:10 All who rely on works of the law are under a curse. For it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."
    Galatians 3:11 And it is clear that no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."
    Galatians 3:12 The law, however, is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."
    Galatians 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us. For it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."
    Galatians 3:14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing promised to Abraham would come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
    Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, "and to seeds," meaning many, but "and to your seed," meaning One, who is Christ.
    Galatians 3:17 What I mean is this: The law that came 430 years later does not revoke the covenant previously established by God, so as to cancel the promise.
    Galatians 3:18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God freely granted it to Abraham through a promise.
    Galatians 3:19 Why then was the law given? It was added because of transgressions, until the arrival of the seed to whom the promise referred. It was administered through angels by a mediator.

    Recall, you said a Christian is one who follows Christ, and additionally, I am sure you agree, follows Christ's teachings.
    So to view adultery as less sinful is not following Jesus and his teachings... therefore is not Christian.

    I don't know of Christians who have that view.
    There are those who profess to be Christian who view things the opposite. They condone homosexuality, and condemn adultery.

    Note though, a true follower of Christ and his teachings - a Christian - does not hate homosexuals.
    Christians are required to love everyone - but hate the sinful practices (Jude 23)... such as sexual immorality, drunkenness, spiritism, etc.

    Additionally, I don't understand how it is possible to believe just parts of the Bible, and have God's favor.
    To reject part, is the same as rejecting all.
    For example, a person who believes in going to heaven to be with God, must believe that all those scriptures you referred to, on "what Jesus changed", are from God - his will.

    If you are up to it, I can show you further, how it is impossible to separate parts of the Bible.
     
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  10. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    Notice in the bible the Mosaic law was only given to Israel to keep. Jeremiah says that in the future there would be a new covenent, a new law

    Jeremiah 31:31-34 New International Version (NIV)
    31 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
    “when I will make a new covenant them,”
    declares the Lord.
    33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
    after that time,” declares the Lord.
    “I will put my law in their minds
    and write it on their hearts.
    I will be their God,
    and they will be my people.
    34 No longer will they teach
    or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
    because they will all know
    from the least of them to the greatest,”
    declares the Lord.
    “For I will forgive
    and will remember their sins no more."

    Christians say that Jesus brought this new covenant which is written on the hearts. therefore the law would be abolished.

    It isn't that Christians pick and choose scripture, it is that they have different foundational verses which they think are important and then interpret everything else in light of that. Which is why there is such a big Trinitarian vs Unitarian debate because they see the same verse differently because they use different foundational texts.

    Also, there is historical context and cultural context. You should check out the differing views of why Jesus said that people should get divorced only if they commit sexual fornication. Some take the text at face value and say that that is the only reason to get divorced. Others say that that is just a response to the Pharisees practices and that Jesus was expressing how important marriage is, not necessarily that one can only divorced because of sexual sin. Both sound valid. But one has to be wrong.

    The more one looks at different commentaries of the Bible the more one sees that it is a very open ended book because of our limitations in understanding it.
     
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  11. Neutral Name

    Neutral Name Active Member

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    Yes, that's why I have problems with it. That is why there are so many denominations and none agree with each other. So, who is Jesus?
     
  12. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    The guy described in the gospels.
     
  13. Neutral Name

    Neutral Name Active Member

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    Thank you for all of the passages. I love reading passages I haven't heard before.

    I can reject that which was obviously written by man. If someone were to write a book or letters today and say God dictated to him or her, no one would believe it. It would not be placed in the Bible. Why are these particular books and letters considered to be completely accurate? They were not written at the time of Jesus. They were written later. Many people since the Bible have stated that God has dictated to them. Many were found to be frauds. Just because a group of religious men got together and declared these books to be of God, does not make it so. In fact, Mark was changed. Originally, Jesus did not die on the cross and was not resurrected in Mark. Someone wrote the ending in.
    https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org...-of-mark-and-why-it-makes-all-the-difference/

    And there are many more things. The Bible is not inerrant.

    And I do hear much more hatred toward gay people than toward adulterous or other people who go against the Ten Commandments. It is all over the news constantly. So, I don't know which people you are talking about who care about adultery. I remember a church group called God hates ****. These people were very adamantly hateful which goes against Jesus teaching love. They definitely were not Christians, just haters.
     
  14. Neutral Name

    Neutral Name Active Member

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    Come on, my brother. Was he filled with love? Did he believe in laws being followed more than love? If so, which laws? How important were the end times to him? Did he say the end times were for his generation? Are people going to hell if they don't believe in him? Was he really God or just saying that we are all gods if we believe? There are so many passages with so many answers. What is the truth? That is what I am asking. Who really was Jesus and what did he stand for and what did he believe?
     
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  15. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    If you are asking what is the truth about Jesus then the answer is I don't know. It all depends on interpretation. But I will try to answer because your questions are a good way of sorting out my own issues with the bible:

    Was he filled with love? According to the gospels yes. But he also believed in judgement which is linked.

    Did he believe in laws being followed more than love? No. He understood peoples limits in obedience so he was lenient.

    How important were the end times to him? Pretty important. That is why he mentioned what he did in Matthew 24. Also the book of Revelation was very important to him. He is a key character and he plays a key role in the end times.

    Did he say the end times were for his generation? In context yes, in my opinion.

    Are people going to hell if they don't believe in him? No. I don't think he mentioned hell. (Can't remember)

    Was he really God or just saying that we are all gods if we believe? More debatable than what one might think. I am unsure.

    What is the truth? I don't know when comparing the evidence. I am confused about it myself in certain cases as I see people jumping to conclusions or using mental gymnastics.
     
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  16. Neutral Name

    Neutral Name Active Member

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    Thank you, my friend. I think we are on the same page again. You and I seem to think very similarly to how I do.
     
    #96 Neutral Name, Jul 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2019
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  17. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find Psalms 119:105 is about our guidebook, our compass pointing in the correct direction to go.
    Scripture is a like a ' flash light ' to shed light our immediate steps guiding our steps so we do not fall into sins ways.
    Scripture is also like ' high beams ' to brighten our roadway ahead of us.
    So, instead of just using different verses, we can use corresponding or parallel cross-reference verses and passages.
    Thus, the Bible then paints a clear word picture for us by subject or topic arrangement.
     
  18. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    Yes. But the intricacies and and meaning of each verse and passage are interpreted in the light of a foundational scripture. The discussions that you as a Witness would have with Trinitarians is a good example of this.
     
  19. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    Yeah. It does seem that we think similarly. We are both trying to look at things from as objective a viewpointbas possible.
     
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  20. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    Psalm 119 is a cool Psalm. Gods law (the unchanging Mosaic law in those days and the commandments before that) is a light that guides us so that we follow the righteous course as opposed to the wicked course. It is the same discussion as the first couple of chapters of Proverbs.
     
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