Can any JWs answer this?

[savagewind]

I agree that sometimes it is an act. Such as the love bombing and forever smiling. Some act nice in a Kingdom Hall and act very different at home. I think that all do that to a certain extent because who they really are they cannot suppress for long. Their true nature leaks out. But many are trying to better themselves.

Your second point I tend to not agree with. The law in the heart is naturally doing the right moral thing in certain cases. Being deceived doesn't fall under moral law. For instance, a man from a cannibal nation who does not want to kill people and eat them out of his nature has the law written in his heart.

Sometimes some man from a cannibal nation who does not want to kill people and eat them out of his nature might be a vegetarian which isn't about The Law.

I will have to reconsider something. I did not know that the law can be written on anyone's heart.
I thought that the law had to be learned first.

 

[savagewind]

OK I looked it up. Romans 2:15

I still think that The Law and "the works of the law" Romans 2:15 might be different.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Sometimes some man from a cannibal nation who does not want to kill people and eat them out of his nature might be a vegetarian which isn't about The Law.

I will have to reconsider something. I did not know that the law can be written on anyone's heart.

Romans 2:12-16:

12 For all who have sinned apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous before God, but those who do the law will be declared righteous. 14 For whenever the Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, these who do not have the law are a law to themselves. 15 They show that the work of the law is written in their hearts, as their conscience bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or else defend them, 16 on the day when God will judge the secrets of human hearts, according to my gospel through Christ Jesus.

 

[Samael_Khan]

OK I looked it up. Romans 2:15

I still think that The Law and "the works of the law" Romans 2:15 might be different.

Jeremiah 31:33
33 “But I will make a new covenant with the whole nation of Israel after I plant them back in the land,” says the LORD. “I will put my law within them and write it on their hearts and minds. I will be their God and they will be my people.

The above is a prophecy about the New Covenant. The reason why Christians do not follow the law covenant is because the law is written on their hearts and minds. In Romans 2, Paul is demonstrating the difference. Also, since man is still made in Gods image it is only natural that he/she would express righteous and moral traits of the creator without even being Christian. It is why many of the world's laws in governments, from ancient times, include laws which reflect God's righteousness.

 

[savagewind]

Romans 2:12-16:

12 For all who have sinned apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous before God, but those who do the law will be declared righteous. 14 For whenever the Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, these who do not have the law are a law to themselves. 15 They show that the work of the law is written in their hearts, as their conscience bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or else defend them, 16 on the day when God will judge the secrets of human hearts, according to my gospel through Christ Jesus.

I meant that I did not know that the law can be written on just anyone's heart.

 

[Samael_Khan]

I meant that I did not know that the law can be written on just anyone's heart.

Yeah. That is why I mentioned Romans 2. I think that the Holy Spirit helps people to have the full Law written on their hearts. People without Holy Spirit have part of the Law written on their heart only, but not to the full extent and not all the Law.

 

[savagewind]

I think that if it is true that the law is written on everyone's heart every person being born in the image of God then the Jehovah's Witnesses must be right. Everyone should know it. The reason is that if it is in the people and people are breaking it with what they do then they hurt themselves.

 

[savagewind]

Yeah. That is why I mentioned Romans 2. I think that the Holy Spirit helps people to have the full Law written on their hearts. People without Holy Spirit have part of the Law written on their heart only, but not to the full extent and not all the Law.

But it is the people who perform the law who have it on their hearts. Lawless people do not have it in them. IMO

 

[Samael_Khan]

But it is the people who perform the law who have it on their hearts. Lawless people do not have it in them. IMO

But even lawless people show love...

"For whenever the Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, these who do not have the law are a law to themselves"

Everybody in history did at least one thing required by God's Law. Everything good that a person does is them by nature following the law. Everything bad that they do is following sins law. Holy Spirits role is working all that sin out so that one is sinless, thus God's law is fully written on their hearts as opposed to partially.

 

[Samael_Khan]

I think that if it is true that the law is written on everyone's heart every person being born in the image of God then the Jehovah's Witnesses must be right. Everyone should know it. The reason is that if it is in the people and people are breaking it with what they do then they hurt themselves.

These days people are only partially made in the image of God. God is not a sinner, therefore our sinful nature renders us only partially in his image.

Everybody wouldn't by nature know the full law because of sin present within them.

And yes, people do hurt themselves by sinning as well as others.

 

[shmogie]

Thank you! @Deeje has always said, "does have".

I disagree. After being an SDA for many years, being an ordained Elder and Bible teacher, I left the denomination.

It was based on independent study which proved some major doctrines false.

I chose to leave.

I have no bitterness, I love SDA´ś ! My friends are SDAś ( they don´t shun ). I love the SDA subculture, and their approach to health makes them the longest living group in the country.

I have sadness that the doctrines they believe so fervently are wrong. I feel sadness for them and their salvation by works mentality.

Bitterness, never. They are good, loving Christians who have put themselves into chains that they need not have.

Like others, their faith in their doctrines are so strong, most will not listen to or read anything not approved by the Church. They flat out refuse to even look at alternative views. I became a rogue in independent study, and left.

I decided to put my faith in Christ, and not the church.

 

[shmogie]

But even lawless people show love...

"For whenever the Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, these who do not have the law are a law to themselves"

Everybody in history did at least one thing required by God's Law. Everything good that a person does is them by nature following the law. Everything bad that they do is following sins law. Holy Spirits role is working all that sin out so that one is sinless, thus God's law is fully written on their hearts as opposed to partially.

What law are you discussing ?

 

[savagewind]

I disagree. After being an SDA for many years, being an ordained Elder and Bible teacher, I left the denomination.

It was based on independent study which proved some major doctrines false.

I chose to leave.

I have no bitterness, I love SDA´ś ! My friends are SDAś ( they don´t shun ). I love the SDA subculture, and their approach to health makes them the longest living group in the country.

I have sadness that the doctrines they believe so fervently are wrong. I feel sadness for them and their salvation by works mentality.

Bitterness, never. They are good, loving Christians who have put themselves into chains that they need not have.

Like others, their faith in their doctrines are so strong, most will not listen to or read anything not approved by the Church. They flat out refuse to even look at alternative views. I became a rogue in independent study, and left.

I decided to put my faith in Christ, and not the church.

What do you disagree? That @Deeje always has said that all former Witnesses here who disagree with her are doing so because of bitterness? How would you know that? You were not a JW. Were you?

 

[Samael_Khan]

I disagree. After being an SDA for many years, being an ordained Elder and Bible teacher, I left the denomination.

It was based on independent study which proved some major doctrines false.

I chose to leave.

I have no bitterness, I love SDA´ś ! My friends are SDAś ( they don´t shun ). I love the SDA subculture, and their approach to health makes them the longest living group in the country.

I have sadness that the doctrines they believe so fervently are wrong. I feel sadness for them and their salvation by works mentality.

Bitterness, never. They are good, loving Christians who have put themselves into chains that they need not have.

Like others, their faith in their doctrines are so strong, most will not listen to or read anything not approved by the Church. They flat out refuse to even look at alternative views. I became a rogue in independent study, and left.

I decided to put my faith in Christ, and not the church.

I did not know that they were the longest living group in the country! There is definitely something to their dietary ideas.

Looks like you and I both left our respective groups because of being rogues.

I feel the same way about JWs. I dont have a problem with the individuals and I like certain aspects of the group but as a whole I disagree with their tactics and certain messed up teachings.

 

[Samael_Khan]

What law are you discussing ?

Not the Mosaic Law. Although aspects of the Mosaic law apply to this law. It would be the 2 main commandments that Christ spoke of.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

The problem isnt that kingdom halls were being sold. The problem is that the selling coincides with certain events.
Electronic media only works where technology is widely accessable. So using electronic publications is good for 1st world countries. Not so in third world countries. Also in third world countries it might be difficult for people to buy electronic devices because they cannot afford the expense. But innevitably having stuff online is still a good decision. It does coincide with certain events though.
I dont think you should compare yourselves with the catholics regarding collection plates. With catholics it is optional to give money. In recent years the organisation has asked members to commit to paying a certain amount of money depending on the congregation and are encouraging members, even children, to make donations. I see this similar to collection plates.
At least neither is like the New Apastolic Church which demands 10% income from their members.
Also i dont think catholics have any problems with money. They have got loads of assets and cash in the vatican city.
None of the above detract from the fact that the org is paying lawsuits and doesnt disclose its funds.

The Hall here was sold here in the 80's because to remodel was costly and parking was No longer adequate.
Thanks to modern technology the electronic media is available through solar batteries in 3rd world countries.
The Kingdom Halls do have access to some devices that require a hand crank.
Since I don't have to deal with such things I don't know much about them but I do know they are in effective use.
There could be more about that on www.jw.org or www.jwbroadcasting in the search box.

My late Catholic uncle had church envelopes, I did Not know they discontinued them.
His donation was posted along with the others.
He had a lot of zeal for God and he and another were in competition each Sunday as to who gave the most.
Yes, the Catholic church in town is well off. Catholics seem to be generous.
However, I did Not know the Catholics disclosed their funds as I don't think that is anyone's business.
I have No idea how much wealth there is in the Vatican or locally.
I do remember one Catholic woman told me if you don't use church envelopes the church would Not bury you.
Where my uncle is buried the deed states if you are Not Catholic you can Not be buried in their cemetery.
Since his brother had a protestant wife they are Not buried in the family plot but across the street.
Perhaps with a bad economy, wealth some churches have amassed could look like easy taking by the secular.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Not the Mosaic Law. Although aspects of the Mosaic law apply to this law. It would be the 2 main commandments that Christ spoke of.

.... plus I find Jesus gave a NEW commandment as found at John 13:34-35.
We are to now have the same self-sacrificing love for others as Jesus has.
In other words, we are now to love neighbor ' more ' than self.

 

[Samael_Khan]

The Hall here was sold here in the 80's because to remodel was costly and parking was No longer adequate.
Thanks to modern technology the electronic media is available through solar batteries in 3rd world countries.
The Kingdom Halls do have access to some devices that require a hand crank.
Since I don't have to deal with such things I don't know much about them but I do know they are in effective use.
There could be more about that on www.jw.org or www.jwbroadcasting in the search box.

My late Catholic uncle had church envelopes, I did Not know they discontinued them.
His donation was posted along with the others.
He had a lot of zeal for God and he and another were in competition each Sunday as to who gave the most.
Yes, the Catholic church in town is well off. Catholics seem to be generous.
However, I did Not know the Catholics disclosed their funds as I don't think that is anyone's business.
I have No idea how much wealth there is in the Vatican or locally.
I do remember one Catholic woman told me if you don't use church envelopes the church would Not bury you.
Where my uncle is buried the deed states if you are Not Catholic you can Not be buried in their cemetery.
Since his brother had a protestant wife they are Not buried in the family plot but across the street.
Perhaps with a bad economy, wealth some churches have amassed could look like easy taking by the secular.

Well, the Kingdom Halls are now standardised so they are cheaper to build. A lot of the old halls were bought from others so were different from each other. Even though halls were sold in mass here, the old halls are still used. One problem now is that travelling is difficult for many because their areas are dangerous or they arent able to get lifts to meetings.

The Catholics have a country all their own. It was a major political power. It has loads of assetts. I do not know whether the contribution envelope is stopped. But the Catholics have so many hidden assetts in their vault which span milleniums and nobody has access to it. It would be interesting to know what artifacts they have and how those artifacts affect our view of history and religion. Some catholic churches will not bury a person if they dont give "church dues". Others are fine with it, you must just attend church.

The Catholic Church are both a religion and a country so it would be extremely difficult to take money from them.