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Featured Baha'i and Messengers

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Policy, Jan 12, 2022 at 9:47 PM.

  1. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    That is how real works. It has no objective referent and has no scientific measurement standard. It is in the end a belief like God.
     
  2. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    The epiphany struggling to emerge.
     
  3. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    Yeah, science is hard.
    "
    Towards the end of his talk to the science teachers Feynman attempted a definition of science, but
    then hesitated, noting from his own experience that science is neither its form nor its content. He did not
    characterize science as a particular method, though while that is one of the many ways science develops,
    it is itself not what science is. He finally answered the question, ‘what Is science’ this way, that it is,
    “...the result of the discovery that it is worthwhile rechecking by new direct experience, and not
    necessarily trusting the [human] race[‘s] experience from the past. I see it that way. That is my best
    definition.” (2005, p. 185) And then he went on to tell them, “
    …learn from science that you must doubt
    the experts…When someone says science teaches such and such, he is using the word incorrectly. Science
    doesn’t teach it; experience teaches it.” (Feynman, 2005, p. 187)"
    https://www.researchgate.net/public...at_Is_Science_and_Today's_Mistrust_of_Science

    Have you done that in general for all your culture's past experiences and your own?
    I started 25+ years ago and I am not done yet.
     
  4. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    This opening your heart up I think is an important point. People do seek an answer... "God are you real?" and people do find an answer? Not necessarily. They find answers. Different people asking the same question find different answer in different religions or spiritual paths.

    Once a belief or path is found, they can keep "opening" their heart to the teachings and wisdom that they are learning. And I have no reason to doubt that what they find is the truth they were seeking. But that truth that they've found isn't necessarily the same or has to be the same someone else has found. And since some spiritual paths have many Gods, no God, one God, or one God but in three parts... I don't think it is possible for spiritual/religious people to say that their beliefs are the correct ones.

    One God is the belief of some, and they took that belief and followed the teachings and practices of their religion and have gotten to a higher spiritual level. But so have people that have believed something totally different. That is why I think it's not dependent on what a person believes, but that they believe it, trust that it is true, and follow it. If that belief started with one God, then I'm sure they will become more and more "one" with that God.

    But if that "God" isn't provable, then what is it that they are believing in? An idea? A concept? A belief? And why is theirs right and some others wrong? Or even why is it wrong to even doubt some or all of these concepts of God? Because even some "believers" in God, do doubt the concepts of the Gods or God that are held by other religions.
     
  5. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Assuming the Baha'i Faith is the truth, why did God make or allow so many choices? So, people have free-will, but in one lifetime they have to find the spiritual needle in the haystack of all the different religious beliefs that are out there? And unless they find and pick the Baha'i Faith, they are wrong?
     
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  6. Seeker of White Light

    Seeker of White Light Think before you speak....so stay silent.

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    I do not have a good answer to your questions..
     
  7. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    I often hear Baha'is use the term "veils". Our beliefs, religious or otherwise, are "veils" keeping us from seeing the truth. But what about the reverse of that, they have "veiled" their eyes from seeing that their beliefs aren't based on objective truth.

    But still, one thing that is observable, that religious people have all sorts of different beliefs. The method of delivering spiritual truth via messengers isn't working. There are always reasons to doubt the new messenger. One religion "veils" itself from the other, because they think they have the truth and the other one doesn't. And accuse each other of being blind. And then both point at Atheists and say that Atheists are blind. Then Atheists ask then show me the proof? Show me something real?
     
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  8. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Well, I've felt a power, a spiritual kind of power before, so I believe it is there. But because I've felt it believe three very different things, then it makes me wonder if it matters what we believe? And, that in some ways, all paths do lead to this spiritual source?
     
  9. Policy

    Policy Active Member

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    If your god is omnipotent, then it does not matter what we are. The answer to "Can God do X" must always be "Yes". Always.
    Q: "Can God manifest a material body?"
    A: "Yes"
    Q "Can God stick his material finger throw the side of a chicken egg with out breaking it?"
    A "Yes"
    Q: "Can God interact with any and all mere mortals in an effective, comprehensible, convincing and verifiable manner without damaging them?"
    A: "Yes"

    If the answer to any of those questions is "No", then that particular god is not omnipotent.
     
  10. Policy

    Policy Active Member

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    I am not sure that "unthinkable" is actually a contradiction.

    Is it only the Abrahamic religions that count? Because there are a lot of religions where it would not be unthinkable. Where everyone is their own priest and messenger to the divine.

    If I understand correctly, and please correct me if I do not, Baha'i calls for a unified world government under a single religion, specifically Baha'i. Something of a theocratic republic. No?
     
  11. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    You can't test those and know that it is God, even if it happened. You can't rule out other metaphysical/epistemological possibilities. You are running up against the limits of science, because what you are doing is philosophy in the end.
    The God of the Gap is that objective reality in itself unknowable other than being independent of the mind.

    And in practice all you have to do to claim God is to do that. That is a part of how the world works. Or in effect religion is natural and not supernatural, but the natural allows for the belief in supernatural.
    Now that you in effect don't like that is not science. That is outside science and within morality/ethics/politics.
     
  12. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    It sounds like Baha'i do expect the spiritual capacity of people to increase. I sure that it's not to the level that they believe a manifestation has, but it would be nice if it was at a level to where spiritual things are understood as they really are.
    In the future we can imagine humanity as a whole attaining greater and greater spiritual capacity as centuries and ages unfold. Baha’u’llah assures us that God will continue to send prophets and messengers in every age to guide humanity forward in its spiritual evolution.​
    Right now, it's not only Atheists that have a problem with the claims of Baha'u'llah, but lots or spiritual and religious people do too. Is Baha'u'llah the promised on of all ages? Who other than Baha'is believes this? If it's true, why are some things so vague as to cause some people to doubt it?

    It's how God wanted it to be? Then later, God will increase the spiritual capacity of people so they will be able to see spiritual things more clearly? But not now?
     
  13. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Maybe that grade school analogy of the Baha'is fits. So, if the teachers are the manifestations. And as the students learn the lessons at one level and move on to the next grade their capacity has increased.

    The problem is with the students that don't want to learn and keep flunking out. What does God do with them?

    But another problem... Let's say Baha'u'llah is a college level course, but then what was the course just below this one? Like a prerequisite course? Islam? No, Baha'u'llah accepts anybody from any level into his course.

    And another problem... Did Jesus or Muhammad or any of the other "Divine" teachers teach their courses? No, they had "student" teachers and the text books did give accurate information. So now a student who studied under Jesus looks at the curriculum of Muhammad, or Buddha or Baha'u'llah and the teachings don't line up. They contradict. So, to accept Baha'u'llah and take his course, a person has to unlearn some of the things they were taught.

    But then there is another thing going on in each religion. They all have various levels of spirituality within them. They can "graduate" from one level to another within their own religion. A highly developed person, with a high degree of spirituality in one religion, didn't get by doing and believing in the same things that other people have done in the other religions. So, can these teachers and paths to higher levels be separate but equal? And a very spiritual Christian that believes Jesus is God, would they have to renounce that in order to get "right" with God? And accept what the Baha'i Faith teaches?
     
  14. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Well, manifestations of God is a great concept. But who the Baha'is say are manifestations is, for me, a problem. The thing I ask is why doesn't Judaism and Christianity make Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses manifestations? Moses came the closest, because, supposedly, he spoke with God and God gave him the laws. But he was very much an ordinary man. Then there's people like Krishna and Jesus. They were more than "manifestations". They were or were close to being "incarnations" of God. But then... how real were the stories about any of them?

    And like you say, in some religions a person can become one with God or become enlightened the same as the messenger.
     
  15. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    And how did you come to "strongly" believe in God? If you were like me, I was told God was real from a very young age. And not just any God, but God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. How many people, other than some Christians believe in that God? And if they did, how did they come to disbelieve in that God? And, if they found a new concept of God, how do they know this one is true? Because a "prophet" said so? Because it says so in a Holy Book? Because this concept of God makes sense?
     
  16. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Omnipotent does not mean "can do anything." It means all-powerful.
    God cannot do what is not in His nature to do. For example, God cannot become evil because God is benevolent by nature. God is not a man because God is spirit by nature, so God cannot stick a finger anywhere since God has no finders.

    Communication from God to humans can never be effective, comprehensible, convincing or verifiable because (a) humans cannot understand God and (b) God cannot be verified.
     
  17. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    What happened?
     
  18. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    That's true, and it is option #2, unwilling.
     
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  19. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    I see a different frame of reference is needed.

    Unable and unwilling are also products of a limited mind, not attributes of God. If we do not find the gift of faith within, that it is because we were unable or unwilling to bring that gift from our own selves.

    The gift of faith is naught but Love, it is a given potential that all humanity can attain to. Given to us as a free will choice, with no compulsion to accept.

    God has no goal, goals are a product of a limited mind, which we all share, God is above any limitations. God has given us an ultimate purpose and that is to know and Love God, our entire reason for being gifted life and given
    a free will choice.

    "....He, through the direct operation of His unconstrained and sovereign Will, chose to confer upon man the unique distinction and capacity to know Him and to love Him—a capacity that must needs be regarded as the generating impulse and the primary purpose underlying the whole of creation…. Upon the inmost reality of each and every created thing He hath shed the light of one of His names, and made it a recipient of the glory of one of His attributes. Upon the reality of man, however, He hath focused the radiance of all of His names and attributes, and made it a mirror of His own Self. Alone of all created things man hath been singled out for so great a favor, so enduring a bounty...."

    Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 64-69

    Peace to all.
     
    #119 TransmutingSoul, Jan 13, 2022 at 4:34 PM
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2022 at 4:39 PM
  20. Policy

    Policy Active Member

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    I could be wrong here, but I don't think that Jews have manifestations of God. That the idea of God begetting is a perversity. And (I think) its because of they way that they see bodily fluids like blood and semen as containing "life". Which is why, after coming into contact with either, one must ritually clean before entering the Temple.
    And in some everyone can. And in some there are multiple gods that are not all part of one god. And, iirc, in Buddhism gods have to become human before they can do the apotheosis thing to Enlightenment. I don't think that the Baha'i are as all encompassing as advertised.
     
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