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Baha'i and Messengers

ppp

Well-Known Member
And how did you come to "strongly" believe in God? If you were like me, I was told God was real from a very young age. And not just any God, but God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
What happened?

Upbringing was how I came to believe in God. too, but not the 'strongly' part. In 7th grade I had a friend who was very serious about it and her thoughtfulness over religious and philosophical subjects impressed me. It made me realize that I should have a better grasp on my beliefs. So I read the Bible, then Augustine, then Geisler and assorted other apologists. I became involved in youth groups, and had discussions.and debates. I had experiences in prayer and in singing that felt like what people described as being infused with the Holy Spirit. It was great. At that point, I believed strongly.

But I was always bothered by the fact that no one could make a rational connection from belief to God. I didn't have the language for it at the time, and just referred to it as The Gap. In my journal I drew it as dangling over a hook; just one link away from connecting. Several dozen times. I got good at drawing chains. :-D Eventually, I came to realize that no one to whom I had spoken or read had that last link. It was at that point that I started asking myself when evaluating a claim, Do I have any reason to believe that this persons knows, or has the capacity to know the thing they are saying.

The last nails in the coffin for Christianity (at least) were pounded home I read Mere Christianity, followed by Evidence that demands a Verdict. Ironically, both recommended by that same girl from 5 years before. Those were hideous, pandering books with no redeeming value.

IMHO
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
With the major world religions, particularly the Abrahamic Faiths, we have written records of what some Messengers have taught.

Well, we have claims, of unknown authorship. We have all manner of objective facts about JK Rowling, and what she wrote, it doesn't make wizardry real of course.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
Unable and unwilling are also products of a limited mind, not attributes of God. If we do not find the gift of faith within, that it is because we were unable or unwilling to bring that gift from our own selves.
I have heard this before. I have said this before. It is a platitude....[looks up 'platitude'] ....yes, a platitude. A bromide. A trope. Oooooo...A shibboleth! I like thatword on my tongue.
Okay, enough thesaurus.

The gift of faith is naught but Love, it is a given potential that all humanity can attain to. Given to us as a free will choice, with no compulsion to accept.
Love is an emotion. I am familiar with it.

God has no goal, goals are a product of a limited mind, which we all share, God is above any limitations. God has given us an ultimate purpose and that is to know and Love God, our entire reason for being gifted life and given
a free will choice.
Okay, now you are just eulogizing.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Upbringing was how I came to believe in God. too, but not the 'strongly' part. In 7th grade I had a friend who was very serious about it and her thoughtfulness over religious and philosophical subjects impressed me. It made me realize that I should have a better grasp on my beliefs. So I read the Bible, then Augustine, then Geisler and assorted other apologists. I became involved in youth groups, and had discussions.and debates. I had experiences in prayer and in singing that felt like what people described as being infused with the Holy Spirit. It was great. At that point, I believed strongly.

But I was always bothered by the fact that no one could make a rational connection from belief to God. I didn't have the language for it at the time, and just referred to it as The Gap. In my journal I drew it as dangling over a hook; just one link away from connecting. Several dozen times. I got good at drawing chains. :-D Eventually, I came to realize that no one to whom I had spoken or read had that last link. It was at that point that I started asking myself when evaluating a claim, Do I have any reason to believe that this persons knows, or has the capacity to know the thing they are saying.

The last nails in the coffin for Christianity (at least) were pounded home I read Mere Christianity, followed by Evidence that demands a Verdict. Ironically, both recommended by that same girl from 5 years before. Those were hideous, pandering books with no redeeming value.

IMHO
Thanks for sharing all of that. I was not raised as a Christian or in any religion, so I did not believe in God or even think about God before I became a Baha'i during my first year in college. But even after I became a Baha'i, I did not think about why I believed in God for about 42 years, after I started reading the Writings of Baha'u'llah with serious intent to understand God.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Then no one has a reason to complain when it is pointed out that the belief that said god exists is irrational.
What is irrational about an Omnipotent God being unwilling to accede to human desires? Why should He? Give me one good reason other than you want Him to.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
Nobody is responsible for God except God. God is what God is and God has always existed with an immutable nature.
You could have just said, "God." :) But I appreciate the enthusiasm.

If God decides his nature, then his nature can change at his whim. It is arbitrary.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
What is irrational about an Omnipotent God being unwilling to accede to human desires? Why should He? Give me one good reason other than you want Him to.
Many things, but I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the human belief that a god exists at all. That is what is irrational.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
If God decides his nature, then his nature can change at his whim. It is arbitrary.
No, part of God's nature is immutability, so God cannot change His nature and still be God.

The Immutability of God is an attribute that "God is unchanging in his character, will, and covenant promises." The Westminster Shorter Catechism says that "[God] is a spirit, whose being, wisdom, power, holiness, justice, goodness, and truth are infinite, eternal, and unchangeable."

Immutability (theology) - Wikipedia
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
No, part of God's nature is immutability, so God cannot change His nature and still be God.

Nah. In all the different religions, gods have radically different natures.hell, even within religions assorted sects attribute different natures to him, her, or them.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
If your god is omnipotent, then it does not matter what we are. The answer to "Can God do X" must always be "Yes". Always.
Q: "Can God manifest a material body?"
A: "Yes"
Q "Can God stick his material finger throw the side of a chicken egg with out breaking it?"
A "Yes"
Q: "Can God interact with any and all mere mortals in an effective, comprehensible, convincing and verifiable manner without damaging them?"
A: "Yes"

If the answer to any of those questions is "No", then that particular god is not omnipotent.

God is All Powerful but All Wise too.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
Okay then, why is the human belief that God exists at all irrational?
What is irrational about it?
Why do you ask for your answer? It's simply going to be a kneejerk, Nuh uh. Just skip the middleman and go straight to you obligatory and unthinking denial.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Nah. In all the different religions, gods have radically different natures.hell, even within religions assorted sects attribute different natures to him, her, or them.
Nah. In all the different religions, gods have radically different natures.hell, even within religions assorted sects attribute different natures to him, her, or them.
Do you understand that what people believe about God (or gods) does not determine what God's nature is?
I believe that some of the religions accurately depict God's nature which means that the other religions are falsely representing God's nature.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Why do you ask for your answer? It's simply going to be a kneejerk, Nuh uh. Just skip the middleman and go straight to you obligatory and unthinking denial.
Now you are deflecting, a famous atheist tactic... ;)

YOU made the assertion that human belief that God exists is irrational so now you have to back up YOUR assertion.
 
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