Baha'i and Messengers

[F1fan]

As far as social influence, if there is a community of elders that believe a certain version of God exists, and some young people are not sure it exists, they will suffer more and more pressure to adopt the idea of the community God.

The Asch study is famous as a prime example of how people will conform to the norms of those around them EVEN if the self knows their own preference is correct.

https://www.simplypsychology.org/asch-conformity.html

 

[ppp]

Occam's razor infers a much simpler explanation.

That would fall under the 'incapable' prong of the dilemma.

 

[Sheldon]

Not every human has opened their heart enough to gain the wisdom to understand message from God or messengers, it is nothing wrong with Baha'i practitioners or the God they believe in. They have a different teaching in some aspects.

That's just another no true Scotsman fallacy sorry. Also opening your heart sound pretty fatal to me. Can you demonstrate any objective evidence that supports your claim, that a deity has contacted anyone?

 

[Sheldon]

That would fall under the 'incapable' prong of the dilemma.

Yes, I am always bemused when apologists try to claim an evolved ape is more culpable, than an omnipotent omniscient creator deity is, for the outcome of its creation.

 

[F1fan]

What you say sounds reasonable.

I cannot give any speculation on why God would choose someone. Only God knows. And I am no God.

Which means you can't even be sure if your version of God exists, if any exist at all, yes?

If you aren't a God yourself, you could be mistaken in what you believe.

 

[Sheldon]

God could "stand" next to you and you would not see God, due to ego.

Who told you that?

More to the point, why on earth would anyone believe it? The idea humans could ever be more culpable for any outcome at all, than an omnipotent omniscient deity if it existed, is an absurd rationale.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I'm looking for an answer to why many theists refuse to examine why they are so absorbed in religious belief. Theists have an itch they keep scratching, but don't look to understand why they are itchy.


Honesty, after they introspect their own nature as a theist.


It's like studying which tool to use to scratch your itch. Theists don't consider why they have this itch at all, and spending time trying to find the most satisfying way to scratch is what is important.

You seem to think everyone is equally itchy. No, not everyone has this problem.


I offer theists, like yourself, every opportunity to explain why you believe in religious concepts. Theists are getting more vague, and offer shorter replies. When there is a long reply it tends to repeat dogma, which isn't an answer.

The fundamental dilemma for believers is that they don't examine their own psychological motives and reasons to believe. With so many thousands of options for religious belief, has it occurred to you that there is no actual and final truth, and it is just a matter of dogma that satisfied the personality of the believer, which further is motivated by evolved traits?

I see theists need to apply some religious framework to their lives to feel significant. But I don't see many examine their nature as evolved animals so they understand WHY they are motivated to believe at all. That natural element is crucial to a search for truth. Just finding some dogma that soothes anxiety only masks the problem of the natural and feral mind.

First part : theists become all consumed with the teaching and faith become that is how dedicated one have to be to realise Gods truth.

Second: speaking only for my own way of spiritual practice, I scratch my head every day to understand how everything are co-existence and how to understand God in all of this chaotic world.

Third, I believe because how I experience life through the practice, how God holds everything together. I dont understand it all, and it make me want to gain Gods wisdom from within. To become like God in Gods wisdom.

Fourth : the more I study the less of "me/ego/self exist, and the less of "me" there is the more Gods wisdom can be seen for a practitioner.

 

[F1fan]

That until the human can understand the message given from God, God does not contact you.

So you can't even be sure if the God you believe exists is real or imaginary. thus you have more confusion and self-doubt. This way of thinking deepens the uncertainty, and makes the religious search less effective. It is a learned trap.

For one who has opend up the heart can hear those messages when they are given, God knows who can hear, see and feel the divine

And what test does the fallen and fallible person, like yourself, have available to discern authentic from imagined messages? Couldn't the self deceive the self if it is very hungry for the truth, and not it has deceived the self?

How do you solve this while in a spiritual crisis as you often confess to on these forums?

 

[Spirit of Light]

If it helps I don't believe I anyone can suffer anything after they die. so chill and just live your life. In fact focus all your efforts and avoiding and preventing unnecessary suffering in this life, and it is the only one we have any objective evidence for.

@Sheldon you are free to believe or disbelieve anything you like, I am not trying to convince anyone. I only speak from my current understanding of spiritual lifestyle.

 

[Spirit of Light]

So you can't even be sure if the God you believe exists is real or imaginary. thus you have more confusion and self-doubt. This way of thinking deepens the uncertainty, and makes the religious search less effective. It is a learned trap.


And what test does the fallen and fallible person, like yourself, have available to discern authentic from imagined messages? Couldn't the self deceive the self if it is very hungry for the truth, and not it has deceived the self?

How do you solve this while in a spiritual crisis as you often confess to on these forums?

It is a belief in God, not a scientific way of life. I understand more and more, but God is not easy to fully understand

 

[F1fan]

First part : theists become all consumed with the teaching and faith become that is how dedicated one have to be to realise Gods truth.

And why is the new believer convinced what they are told is true? And who told the previous generation it was true?

Second: speaking only for my own way of spiritual practice, I scratch my head every day to understand how everything are co-existence and how to understand God in all of this chaotic world.

As I noted, you are so busy scratching you are distracted WHY you are itchy in the first place. Here you back up what I stated, and seem to have missed that challenge.

Third, I believe because how I experience life through the practice, how God holds everything together. I dont understand it all, and it make me want to gain Gods wisdom from within. To become like God in Gods wisdom.

And who told you all this is correct, true, a sound approach for your mind to adopt and use? Have you considered that your struggling is because what you adopted isn't what your mind actually needs?

Fourth : the more I study the less of "me/ego/self exist, and the less of "me" there is the more Gods wisdom can be seen for a practitioner.

That doesn't seem to be demonstrated in your posts. Any time you are challenged to look beyond your beliefs you retreat further into them like a frightened kitten.

Could it be there is a part of you that sees the folly in all this religious dogma, but your ego is so attached to the belief that there is an inner conflict? You lay it all out for us to see on these forums like you invite some suggestion from others. You're not presenting a case of success as a believer, but a person with serious doubts.

 

[F1fan]

It is a belief in God, not a scientific way of life. I understand more and more, but God is not easy to fully understand

To "understand God" means to be less rational. This can only create more inner conflict as the ego wants to hold on to the concepts, but the intellect understands it is wrong. Fear tends to win these battles, and belief gets reinforced.

 

[Spirit of Light]

And why is the new believer convinced what they are told is true? And who told the previous generation it was true?


As I noted, you are so busy scratching you are distracted WHY you are itchy in the first place. Here you back up what I stated, and seem to have missed that challenge.


And who told you all this is correct, true, a sound approach for your mind to adopt and use? Have you considered that your struggling is because what you adopted isn't what your mind actually needs?


That doesn't seem to be demonstrated in your posts. Any time you are challenged to look beyond your beliefs you retreat further into them like a frightened kitten.

Could it be there is a part of you that sees the folly in all this religious dogma, but your ego is so attached to the belief that there is an inner conflict? You lay it all out for us to see on these forums like you invite some suggestion from others. You're not presenting a case of success as a believer, but a person with serious doubts.

I have only one answer to you or others who ask.
Because I believe in God, it is not important for me to prove to others that "my belief is right" for any other person.
I dont practice spiritual lifestyle for anyone else than to be United with God.

I have no desire to convince anyone that I believe "the right way" and others are "wrong"

People can believe or disbelieve anything they like.

 

[loverofhumanity]

First its coz the sun would burn me up.
Considering all the " prophets" there have been, all getting " messages" that contradict eachother with no evidence any of them
is not fake, I say the phrasing is off.

"Whoever so wishes will claim to be a messenger"

THAT statement is abundantly evidenced.
Your statement has zero evidence.

Where does the sensible person make his bet?

All the Messengers of God teach the same eternal truths. Only Their social laws differ as they were revealed to suit the needs of the people in each age.

Christ = love thy neighbour

Muhammad = love thy country

Baha’u’llah = love all humanity

See how wonderfully they reveal laws according to the development, evolution and progress of humanity. The law of love has never changed only widened to embrace all.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Your god is depicted as being omnipotent. So, yes.

God is omnipotent but we are not God just mere mortals. The Souls of the Prophets of God are pre-existent and we’re specially prepared to be able to sustain a Revelation from God.

Verily, were God the Exalted to appear in His (proper) grade and form, and in a manner befitting His Station, no one could ever approach Him or endure to be near Him. (Baha’u’llah)

 

[Vinayaka]

According to the Baha'i their god has made a few messengers. But only a few. At least in comparison to the billions of people who have lived.

Is the Baha'i god incapable of making everyone a messenger? Or simply unwilling?

Why not just ask a Baha'i rather that debating it?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

If I tell you there is an orange on the table, you can look and verify I'm correct.

If I tell you my version of God exists, how do you verify that? Do you just accept what I say and don't question it?

Do you blindly accept what I say and then go tell other people what I told you? That is how religion works, the next generation mimics the claims of the older generation.

Yeah, the same has happen with other aspects of culture also as science and philosophy as parts of culture.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

And according to several Baha'i folks there is no way to test whether a person who claims to be a Messenger is authentic. That's a serious flaw.

I never heard that before. Bahai scriptures says the Messengers are given proof. Bahaullah says, how could God aend a Messenger and expect all people of earth to believe and obey a Messenger, but does not provide any proofs so that people can ensure He is a Messenger of God.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Whoa! A direct response with no hedging. Be still my heart! Thank you, very much.*

What are a few of the things that it would contradict?

*And if you wonder, there is no sarcasm in this.

For Baha'is one of the ways we can reliably come to know God and His Purpose for us is through His Messengers. With the major world religions, particularly the Abrahamic Faiths, we have written records of what some Messengers have taught. That includes the Torah, The Gospel, Quran and more recently the Baha'i Revelation. These sacred scriptures are considered authoritative and to varying degrees authentic. Baha'is see the Baha'i Writings as the most reliable as Muslims, Christians and Jews would view their respective scriptures. So the question is in part theological. Do Baha'is consider you and I as Manifestations of God, comparable to Moses, Jesus and Muhammad? Do Muslims regard everyone as Prophets? They do not. Do Christians consider all as equals to No! Jesus? Clearly not. Would Jews consider our words in the same light as what God Revealed through Moses? Such a comparison would be unthinkable.

We may not agree on the existence of God and the merits or otherwise of some Founders of the World Religions. What we might be able to agree on, is what the Sacred books actually teach. Of the Manifestations of God, the Baha'i Writings teach:

Manifestations of God | Revelation | God and His Creation | What Bahá’ís Believe

 

[Audie]

All the Messengers of God teach the same eternal truths. Only Their social laws differ as they were revealed to suit the needs of the people in each age.

Christ = love thy neighbour

Muhammad = love thy country

Baha’u’llah = love all humanity

See how wonderfully they reveal laws according to the development, evolution and progress of humanity. The law of love has never changed only widened to embrace all.

Agreeing with none of that i will just point out that by this the only messengers who really were Messengers are ones who said what you
have decided is the real message.