Baha'i and Messengers

[mikkel_the_dane]

Agreeing with none of that i will just point out that by this the only messengers who really were Messengers are ones who said what you
have decided is the real message.

That is how real works. It has no objective referent and has no scientific measurement standard. It is in the end a belief like God.

 

[Audie]

And why is the new believer convinced what they are told is true? And who told the previous generation it was true?


As I noted, you are so busy scratching you are distracted WHY you are itchy in the first place. Here you back up what I stated, and seem to have missed that challenge.


And who told you all this is correct, true, a sound approach for your mind to adopt and use? Have you considered that your struggling is because what you adopted isn't what your mind actually needs?


That doesn't seem to be demonstrated in your posts. Any time you are challenged to look beyond your beliefs you retreat further into them like a frightened kitten.

Could it be there is a part of you that sees the folly in all this religious dogma, but your ego is so attached to the belief that there is an inner conflict? You lay it all out for us to see on these forums like you invite some suggestion from others. You're not presenting a case of success as a believer, but a person with serious doubts.

The epiphany struggling to emerge.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

The epiphany struggling to emerge.

Yeah, science is hard.
"
Towards the end of his talk to the science teachers Feynman attempted a definition of science, but
then hesitated, noting from his own experience that science is neither its form nor its content. He did not
characterize science as a particular method, though while that is one of the many ways science develops,
it is itself not what science is. He finally answered the question, ‘what Is science’ this way, that it is,
“...the result of the discovery that it is worthwhile rechecking by new direct experience, and not
necessarily trusting the [human] race[‘s] experience from the past. I see it that way. That is my best
definition.” (2005, p. 185) And then he went on to tell them, “…learn from science that you must doubt
the experts…When someone says science teaches such and such, he is using the word incorrectly. Science
doesn’t teach it; experience teaches it.” (Feynman, 2005, p. 187)"
https://www.researchgate.net/public...at_Is_Science_and_Today's_Mistrust_of_Science

Have you done that in general for all your culture's past experiences and your own?
I started 25+ years ago and I am not done yet.

 

[CG Didymus]

Not every human has opened their heart enough to gain the wisdom to understand message from God or messengers, it is nothing wrong with Baha'i practitioners or the God they believe in. They have a different teaching in some aspects.

This opening your heart up I think is an important point. People do seek an answer... "God are you real?" and people do find an answer? Not necessarily. They find answers. Different people asking the same question find different answer in different religions or spiritual paths.

Once a belief or path is found, they can keep "opening" their heart to the teachings and wisdom that they are learning. And I have no reason to doubt that what they find is the truth they were seeking. But that truth that they've found isn't necessarily the same or has to be the same someone else has found. And since some spiritual paths have many Gods, no God, one God, or one God but in three parts... I don't think it is possible for spiritual/religious people to say that their beliefs are the correct ones.

One God is the belief of some, and they took that belief and followed the teachings and practices of their religion and have gotten to a higher spiritual level. But so have people that have believed something totally different. That is why I think it's not dependent on what a person believes, but that they believe it, trust that it is true, and follow it. If that belief started with one God, then I'm sure they will become more and more "one" with that God.

But if that "God" isn't provable, then what is it that they are believing in? An idea? A concept? A belief? And why is theirs right and some others wrong? Or even why is it wrong to even doubt some or all of these concepts of God? Because even some "believers" in God, do doubt the concepts of the Gods or God that are held by other religions.

 

[CG Didymus]

I don't see any reason to believe that there is a free will. At least not the libertarian Free Will that you probably believe.

But let's say that I did. Again, omnipotence. And being could interact with us without subverting free will. If God is omnipotent, you can't limit him.

Assuming the Baha'i Faith is the truth, why did God make or allow so many choices? So, people have free-will, but in one lifetime they have to find the spiritual needle in the haystack of all the different religious beliefs that are out there? And unless they find and pick the Baha'i Faith, they are wrong?

 

[Spirit of Light]

This opening your heart up I think is an important point. People do seek an answer... "God are you real?" and people do find an answer? Not necessarily. They find answers. Different people asking the same question find different answer in different religions or spiritual paths.

Once a belief or path is found, they can keep "opening" their heart to the teachings and wisdom that they are learning. And I have no reason to doubt that what they find is the truth they were seeking. But that truth that they've found isn't necessarily the same or has to be the same someone else has found. And since some spiritual paths have many Gods, no God, one God, or one God but in three parts... I don't think it is possible for spiritual/religious people to say that their beliefs are the correct ones.

One God is the belief of some, and they took that belief and followed the teachings and practices of their religion and have gotten to a higher spiritual level. But so have people that have believed something totally different. That is why I think it's not dependent on what a person believes, but that they believe it, trust that it is true, and follow it. If that belief started with one God, then I'm sure they will become more and more "one" with that God.

But if that "God" isn't provable, then what is it that they are believing in? An idea? A concept? A belief? And why is theirs right and some others wrong? Or even why is it wrong to even doubt some or all of these concepts of God? Because even some "believers" in God, do doubt the concepts of the Gods or God that are held by other religions.

I do not have a good answer to your questions..

 

[CG Didymus]

If it's not one excuse it's another.

I often hear Baha'is use the term "veils". Our beliefs, religious or otherwise, are "veils" keeping us from seeing the truth. But what about the reverse of that, they have "veiled" their eyes from seeing that their beliefs aren't based on objective truth.

But still, one thing that is observable, that religious people have all sorts of different beliefs. The method of delivering spiritual truth via messengers isn't working. There are always reasons to doubt the new messenger. One religion "veils" itself from the other, because they think they have the truth and the other one doesn't. And accuse each other of being blind. And then both point at Atheists and say that Atheists are blind. Then Atheists ask then show me the proof? Show me something real?

 

[CG Didymus]

I do not have a good answer to your questions..

Well, I've felt a power, a spiritual kind of power before, so I believe it is there. But because I've felt it believe three very different things, then it makes me wonder if it matters what we believe? And, that in some ways, all paths do lead to this spiritual source?

 

[ppp]

God is omnipotent but we are not God just mere mortals. The Souls of the Prophets of God are pre-existent and we’re specially prepared to be able to sustain a Revelation from God.

If your god is omnipotent, then it does not matter what we are. The answer to "Can God do X" must always be "Yes". Always.
Q: "Can God manifest a material body?"
A: "Yes"
Q "Can God stick his material finger throw the side of a chicken egg with out breaking it?"
A "Yes"
Q: "Can God interact with any and all mere mortals in an effective, comprehensible, convincing and verifiable manner without damaging them?"
A: "Yes"

If the answer to any of those questions is "No", then that particular god is not omnipotent.

 

[ppp]

For Baha'is one of the ways we can reliably come to know God and His Purpose for us is through His Messengers. With the major world religions, particularly the Abrahamic Faiths, we have written records of what some Messengers have taught. That includes the Torah, The Gospel, Quran and more recently the Baha'i Revelation. These sacred scriptures are considered authoritative and to varying degrees authentic. Baha'is see the Baha'i Writings as the most reliable as Muslims, Christians and Jews would view their respective scriptures. So the question is in part theological. Do Baha'is consider you and I as Manifestations of God, comparable to Moses, Jesus and Muhammad? Do Muslims regard everyone as Prophets? They do not. Do Christians consider all as equals to No! Jesus? Clearly not. Would Jews consider our words in the same light as what God Revealed through Moses? Such a comparison would be unthinkable.

I am not sure that "unthinkable" is actually a contradiction.

Is it only the Abrahamic religions that count? Because there are a lot of religions where it would not be unthinkable. Where everyone is their own priest and messenger to the divine.

We may not agree on the existence of God and the merits or otherwise of some Founders of the World Religions. What we might be able to agree on, is what the Sacred books actually teach. Of the Manifestations of God, the Baha'i Writings teach

If I understand correctly, and please correct me if I do not, Baha'i calls for a unified world government under a single religion, specifically Baha'i. Something of a theocratic republic. No?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

If your god is omnipotent, then it does not matter what we are. The answer to "Can God do X" must always be "Yes". Always.
Q: "Can God manifest a material body?"
A: "Yes"
Q "Can God stick his material finger throw the side of a chicken egg with out breaking it?"
A "Yes"
Q: "Can God interact with any and all mere mortals in an effective, comprehensible, convincing and verifiable manner without damaging them?"
A: "Yes"

If the answer to any of those questions is "No", then that particular god is not omnipotent.

You can't test those and know that it is God, even if it happened. You can't rule out other metaphysical/epistemological possibilities. You are running up against the limits of science, because what you are doing is philosophy in the end.
The God of the Gap is that objective reality in itself unknowable other than being independent of the mind.

And in practice all you have to do to claim God is to do that. That is a part of how the world works. Or in effect religion is natural and not supernatural, but the natural allows for the belief in supernatural.
Now that you in effect don't like that is not science. That is outside science and within morality/ethics/politics.

 

[CG Didymus]

What does the Bahai God need to make everyone a messenger? Why should that be a criteria, and if God has requirement to meet "Your Criteria" he is not capable or unwilling?

Please explain.

It sounds like Baha'i do expect the spiritual capacity of people to increase. I sure that it's not to the level that they believe a manifestation has, but it would be nice if it was at a level to where spiritual things are understood as they really are.

In the future we can imagine humanity as a whole attaining greater and greater spiritual capacity as centuries and ages unfold. Baha’u’llah assures us that God will continue to send prophets and messengers in every age to guide humanity forward in its spiritual evolution.​

Right now, it's not only Atheists that have a problem with the claims of Baha'u'llah, but lots or spiritual and religious people do too. Is Baha'u'llah the promised on of all ages? Who other than Baha'is believes this? If it's true, why are some things so vague as to cause some people to doubt it?

It's how God wanted it to be? Then later, God will increase the spiritual capacity of people so they will be able to see spiritual things more clearly? But not now?

 

[CG Didymus]

There have been Manifestations of God from eternity and in other worlds as well not just this one. So although not everyone has become a Messenger, there have been many more of Them appear than just in our recorded history as per below.

Bahá’u’lláh states:

The Manifestations of His Divine Glory . . . have been sent down from time immemorial, and been com- missioned to summon mankind to the one true God. That the names of some of them are forgotten and the records of their lives lost is to be attributed to the disturbances and changes that have overtaken the world.

Similarly Abdul-Baha states that

there have been many holy Manifestations of God. One thousand years ago, two hundred thousand years ago, one million years ago, the bounty of God was flowing, the radiance of God was shining, the dominion of God was existing.

Maybe that grade school analogy of the Baha'is fits. So, if the teachers are the manifestations. And as the students learn the lessons at one level and move on to the next grade their capacity has increased.

The problem is with the students that don't want to learn and keep flunking out. What does God do with them?

But another problem... Let's say Baha'u'llah is a college level course, but then what was the course just below this one? Like a prerequisite course? Islam? No, Baha'u'llah accepts anybody from any level into his course.

And another problem... Did Jesus or Muhammad or any of the other "Divine" teachers teach their courses? No, they had "student" teachers and the text books did give accurate information. So now a student who studied under Jesus looks at the curriculum of Muhammad, or Buddha or Baha'u'llah and the teachings don't line up. They contradict. So, to accept Baha'u'llah and take his course, a person has to unlearn some of the things they were taught.

But then there is another thing going on in each religion. They all have various levels of spirituality within them. They can "graduate" from one level to another within their own religion. A highly developed person, with a high degree of spirituality in one religion, didn't get by doing and believing in the same things that other people have done in the other religions. So, can these teachers and paths to higher levels be separate but equal? And a very spiritual Christian that believes Jesus is God, would they have to renounce that in order to get "right" with God? And accept what the Baha'i Faith teaches?

 

[CG Didymus]

Is it only the Abrahamic religions that count? Because there are a lot of religions where it would not be unthinkable. Where everyone is their own priest and messenger to the divine.

Well, manifestations of God is a great concept. But who the Baha'is say are manifestations is, for me, a problem. The thing I ask is why doesn't Judaism and Christianity make Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses manifestations? Moses came the closest, because, supposedly, he spoke with God and God gave him the laws. But he was very much an ordinary man. Then there's people like Krishna and Jesus. They were more than "manifestations". They were or were close to being "incarnations" of God. But then... how real were the stories about any of them?

And like you say, in some religions a person can become one with God or become enlightened the same as the messenger.

 

[CG Didymus]

BTW, a belief in God was one of my strongly held positions.

And how did you come to "strongly" believe in God? If you were like me, I was told God was real from a very young age. And not just any God, but God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. How many people, other than some Christians believe in that God? And if they did, how did they come to disbelieve in that God? And, if they found a new concept of God, how do they know this one is true? Because a "prophet" said so? Because it says so in a Holy Book? Because this concept of God makes sense?

 

[Trailblazer]

If your god is omnipotent, then it does not matter what we are. The answer to "Can God do X" must always be "Yes". Always.
Q: "Can God manifest a material body?"
A: "Yes"
Q "Can God stick his material finger throw the side of a chicken egg with out breaking it?"
A "Yes"
Q: "Can God interact with any and all mere mortals in an effective, comprehensible, convincing and verifiable manner without damaging them?"
A: "Yes"

If the answer to any of those questions is "No", then that particular god is not omnipotent.

Omnipotent does not mean "can do anything." It means all-powerful.
God cannot do what is not in His nature to do. For example, God cannot become evil because God is benevolent by nature. God is not a man because God is spirit by nature, so God cannot stick a finger anywhere since God has no finders.

Communication from God to humans can never be effective, comprehensible, convincing or verifiable because (a) humans cannot understand God and (b) God cannot be verified.

 

[Trailblazer]

BTW, a belief in God was one of my strongly held positions.

What happened?

 

[Trailblazer]

For an intelligent being with a goal of having me believe that they exist, those are the only two options. Unable or unwilling.

That's true, and it is option #2, unwilling.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

For an intelligent being with a goal of having me believe that they exist, those are the only two options. Unable or unwilling.

I see a different frame of reference is needed.

Unable and unwilling are also products of a limited mind, not attributes of God. If we do not find the gift of faith within, that it is because we were unable or unwilling to bring that gift from our own selves.

The gift of faith is naught but Love, it is a given potential that all humanity can attain to. Given to us as a free will choice, with no compulsion to accept.

God has no goal, goals are a product of a limited mind, which we all share, God is above any limitations. God has given us an ultimate purpose and that is to know and Love God, our entire reason for being gifted life and given
a free will choice.

"....He, through the direct operation of His unconstrained and sovereign Will, chose to confer upon man the unique distinction and capacity to know Him and to love Him—a capacity that must needs be regarded as the generating impulse and the primary purpose underlying the whole of creation…. Upon the inmost reality of each and every created thing He hath shed the light of one of His names, and made it a recipient of the glory of one of His attributes. Upon the reality of man, however, He hath focused the radiance of all of His names and attributes, and made it a mirror of His own Self. Alone of all created things man hath been singled out for so great a favor, so enduring a bounty...."

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 64-69

Peace to all.

 

[ppp]

Well, manifestations of God is a great concept. But who the Baha'is say are manifestations is, for me, a problem. The thing I ask is why doesn't Judaism and Christianity make Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses manifestations? Moses came the closest, because, supposedly, he spoke with God and God gave him the laws. But he was very much an ordinary man. Then there's people like Krishna and Jesus. They were more than "manifestations". They were or were close to being "incarnations" of God. But then... how real were the stories about any of them?

And like you say, in some religions a person can become one with God or become enlightened the same as the messenger.

I could be wrong here, but I don't think that Jews have manifestations of God. That the idea of God begetting is a perversity. And (I think) its because of they way that they see bodily fluids like blood and semen as containing "life". Which is why, after coming into contact with either, one must ritually clean before entering the Temple.

And like you say, in some religions a person can become one with God or become enlightened the same as the messenger.

And in some everyone can. And in some there are multiple gods that are not all part of one god. And, iirc, in Buddhism gods have to become human before they can do the apotheosis thing to Enlightenment. I don't think that the Baha'i are as all encompassing as advertised.