Atheism, Capitalism, Evolution, & Free Speech Go Together Like.....

[shunyadragon]

In the OP, I treated economic systems separately from religion.

OK. I was describing my view of the origin, history and evolution of economic systems. Some equate communism and socialism with atheism, and some equate capitalism with Christianity.

 

[Revoltingest]

OK. I was describing my view of the origin, history and evolution of economic systems. Some equate communism and socialism with atheism, and some equate capitalism with Christianity.

There's way to much equating going on, eh.

 

[Yerda]

I don't propose that this or that economic system live with
this or that religion or this or that view of evolution. I've
made no characterization about your personal preferences.
I've only given my own appreciation for the my perceived
beauty of the structure of some systems.

Ok. I thought you did a good job of conveying that. I'll leave you to it.

 

[shunyadragon]

There's way to much equating going on, eh.

Yep!

 

[Mox]

Some people are materialists who don't believe in God or souls.

You meant rationalists.

You know, people who deal with the actual and not the imaginary.

 

[PureX]

I always am.
But I don't want you to derail the thread.
Feel free to bash whatever you want...just elsewhere.
This thread is about considering how systems are structured.

The capitalist system is structured so that the capital investor makes all the decisions regarding the commercial enterprise being invested in. That makes the investor's desire to maximize the profit returned the capital invested the singular motivation behind all commercial decisions. And this places every other interest and motive in antipathy with that goal, including the motives of everyone else engaged in the commercial enterprise. It is literally systemized greed and competition. And it results in an economy that forces everyone to be at enmity with everyone else. It pits us all against each other, all the time, for everything we need to survive and thrive as human beings. And this inevitably tears any society that employs this system apart, over time.

It is simply not a logically reasonable system for we humans to engage in, as it does not have our collective best interest as it's goal.

 

[PureX]

So how can we change the system to make it a more reasonable, logical and effective commercial system? The answer should be obvious: we need the goals (well-being) of everyone involved in the commercial enterprise being represented in the decision-making governing the enterprise. That means that the employees, vendors, customers and community need to be represented and taken into consideration when businesses decide how they will operate.

There are a number of models for doing this. In this country, labor unions used to represent the employees, market competition used to represent the customers and vendors, and government oversight used to represent the community. But since so much money has piled up in the hands of the investor class, and they have used it to corrupt government and buy laws busting unions and creating and protecting monopolies, all these forms of mutual representation in commerce have vanished. So clearly, they were not stringent enough. And we would need to look for more durable means of establishing that mutual decision-making process.

 

[Revoltingest]

The capitalist system is structured so that the capital investor makes all the decisions regarding the commercial enterprise being invested in. That makes the investor's desire to maximize the profit returned the capital invested the singular motivation behind all commercial decisions. And this places every other interest and motive in antipathy with that goal, including the motives of everyone else engaged in the commercial enterprise. It is literally systemized greed and competition. And it results in an economy that forces everyone to be at enmity with everyone else. It pits us all against each other, all the time, for everything we need to survive and thrive as human beings. And this inevitably tears any society that employs this system apart, over time.

It is simply not a logically reasonable system for we humans to engage in, as it does not have our collective best interest as it's goal.

That isn't really a large scale control perspective.
You're only listing things you dislike.

Under capitalism, each individual acts independently...
becoming an employee, starting a company, creating a commune,
changing jobs, relocating, consuming, subsistence lifestyle, etc.

 

[PureX]

That isn't really a large scale control perspective.
You're only listing things you dislike.

No. What I am stating is the logical functional intent of the system, itself. If an investor chooses to forgo maximizing the profits being returned on his investment, for the sake of the well-being of his employees, or his customers, or his venders, or his community, he can do so. But that decision is HIS, and no one else's. Because the system is designed to enable HIS greed: to enable people with more money than they need to live, to use it to capture even more money, still. That's the whole point of the capitalist system: taking money with money. It's why the capital investor has all the control. And it's why everyone else has to fight the system and those it rewards to get their own needs met.

This is the "big picture". And it's pretty much the only picture. Because almost no business owner/investor is, has, or ever will choose to forgo his own profits to share wealth or control with anyone else, unless he is forced to do so. It just doesn't happen when his greed is so automatically being justified and served.

Under capitalism, each individual acts independently...

No, they don't. Every economic system is made up of and engaged in by everyone within it. We are all depending on each other for virtually everything we need to live, now days. "Independence" is a nostalgic pipe dream from a fantasy past, being used to justify the systematized greed of capitalism. And we are all being more and more enslaved by the ugly capitalist reality of our lives, as time passes.

... becoming an employee, starting a company, creating a commune,
changing jobs, relocating, consuming, subsistence lifestyle, etc.

One would have to be wearing a mighty big pair of blinders not to see that this is patently false. Being able to choose your poison is of little consequence when whichever one you choose it's still intent on killing you. Almost no one is expending their lives doing what they would choose to do, if they'd had any real choice offered to them. But they never get that real choice. Instead, they go4t to choose between serving the greed of the wealthy in this way, or in that. It's still the elite investor class that's deciding which options they get presented, and forcing them to choose one.

 

[Audie]

The capitalist system is structured so that the capital investor makes all the decisions regarding the commercial enterprise being invested in. That makes the investor's desire to maximize the profit returned the capital invested the singular motivation behind all commercial decisions. And this places every other interest and motive in antipathy with that goal, including the motives of everyone else engaged in the commercial enterprise. It is literally systemized greed and competition. And it results in an economy that forces everyone to be at enmity with everyone else. It pits us all against each other, all the time, for everything we need to survive and thrive as human beings. And this inevitably tears any society that employs this system apart, over time.

It is simply not a logically reasonable system for we humans to engage in, as it does not have our collective best interest as it's goal.

The proletariat will rise up and seize the means of
production.

I've heard about that.

 

[PureX]

The proletariat will rise up and seize the means of
production.

I've heard about that.

All that usually does is make room for a new slew of dictators. The solution is to set in place government mechanisms that ensure that everyone gets represented in commercial decision-making, so that no group gets neglected or abused by those decisions. That includes the capital investor, by the way.

 

[Audie]

All that usually does is make room for a new slew of dictators. The solution is to set in place government mechanisms that ensure that everyone gets represented in commercial decision-making, so that no group gets neglected or abused by those decisions. That includes the capital investor, by the way.

I am not into heavy handed govt control.

Dictatorship-

dicta-communist
tatership-torture.

everyone gets represented in commercial decision-making

Kind of thought that is what the market does.

What "neglect and abuse" are you trying to avoid?

I am not really into social engineering, either.

 

[PureX]

I am not into heavy handed govt control.

People will not control themselves voluntarily, especially when money is involved. So what do you suggest we do to keep us from harming each other, our communities, and our environment in the blind pursuit of greed. Because clearly, from human history, this blinding greed is a hugely prominent characteristic of human behavior.

Kind of thought that is what the market does.

How do you imagine that uncontrolled commerce can control human behavior so as to protect us all from each other? Because I sure don't see how it would?

What "neglect and abuse" are you trying to avoid?

People selling other people saw dust and glue as food, that sort of thing. Trapping people in labor prisons through usury, robbing people through "buyer beware" policies that enable anyone to say anything to anyone to get their money. The list would be endless, as we humans are very good at thinking up ways to lie, cheat, and steal from each other.

I am not really into social engineering, either.

Of course you are. Everyone is. Humans don't live isolated existences out in the wilderness. We live together in highly organized, cooperative societies where everyone's well-being depends on everyone else's. Everything you need to live comes from someone else. In fact, it comes from a whole host of someone else's. So you'd better hope your society has been "engineered" properly, to keep it all harmonious.

 

[Audie]

People will not control themselves voluntarily, especially when money is involved. So what do you suggest we do to keep us from harming each other, our communities, and our environment in the blind pursuit of greed. Because clearly, from human history, this blinding greed is a hugely prominent characteristic of human behavior.
How do you imagine that uncontrolled commerce can control human behavior so as to protect us all from each other? Because I sure don't see how it would?
People selling other people saw dust and glue as food, that sort of thing. Trapping people in labor prisons through usury, robbing people through "buyer beware" policies that enable anyone to say anything to anyone to get their money. The list would be endless, as we humans are very good at thinking up ways to lie, cheat, and steal from each other.
Of course you are. Everyone is. Humans don't live isolated existences out in the wilderness. We live together in highly organized, cooperative societies where everyone's well-being depends on everyone else's. Everything you need to live comes from someone else. In fact, it comes from a whole host of someone else's. So you'd better hope your society has been "engineered" properly, to keep it all harmonious.

Hong Kong capitalist family is where I am coming from.

Citing "irreconcilable differences" Audie exits the
conversation.

 

[Ponder This]

You meant rationalists.

You know, people who deal with the actual and not the imaginary.

I did mean materialists!
Rene Descartes is a classical rationalist famous for his proof of God that beings with the statement "cogito ergo sum", which translates as "I think, therefore I am".

 

[shunyadragon]

The proletariat will rise up and seize the means of
production.

I've heard about that.

. . . and the pigs will rule.

 

[Mox]

All that usually does is make room for a new slew of dictators. The solution is to set in place government mechanisms that ensure that everyone gets represented in commercial decision-making, so that no group gets neglected or abused by those decisions. That includes the capital investor, by the way.

 

[Revoltingest]

View attachment 22935

People say such things because it's fun.
But those who really believe it don't vote.

 

[Mox]

People say such things because it's fun.

Although on that subject I am absolutely without any humour at all.

 

[Mox]

On that subject Putin's death stare is like a sunlit meadow by poetic comparison to the bleak look on my ugly old mug.