Atheism, Capitalism, Evolution, & Free Speech Go Together Like.....

[Revoltingest]

Although I disagree with the framing of some of this it is an interesting perspective. I don't want to derail this by disputing what capitalism or socialism is or can be so I'll leave that by the wayside (unless you're interested).

Capitalism & socialism will each have its fans & detractors.
This thread isn't about that preference, since neither is right
nor wrong.

One point that I would make that isn't motivated by the aformentioned disagreement is that there is a real sense in which they go together in the worst possible way. Atheism as a cornerstone of a hyper-individualistic outlook is tailor made for an ideological darwinism that boils down to pathological selfishness and inevitably ends in evil.

This is a moral judgement about effects you perceive.
This thread isn't about that.
Herein, I'm not advocating that one religious, economic,
or scientific view is better than another. (While I have
opinions, they're not relevant to this thread.)
To do so only muddies the waters by people taking sides.
Instead, it's about fundamental structure of the systems.

I'm not saying that this is the only way for these ideas to live together in a person's head. I'm a socialist but what you characterise as capitalism in the OP is not something I'm inherently opposed to.

I don't propose that this or that economic system live with
this or that religion or this or that view of evolution. I've
made no characterization about your personal preferences.
I've only given my own appreciation for the my perceived
beauty of the structure of some systems.

See also post #7.

 

[Revoltingest]

Ah! Thanks for the course correction! I stand by my earlier posts, but can see now how they do not address the OP.

Fascinating OP, by the way.

More later...

The <friendly> frubal is a vicious jab at you, btw.
It will give the impression that we're best buds.
You have been brought low!

 

[Sunstone]

The <friendly> frubal is a vicious jab at you, btw.
It will give the impression that we're best buds.
You have been brought low!

Oh Gawds! What have I done to myself now! I so feel in need of curling up in a corner and sucking my thumb.

Didn't you read the "more later" part? That usually rips a primeval scream from folks.

 

[Revoltingest]

=== Alert ===
This is now a featured thread.
Behave yourselves.
We're being watched with greater scrutiny.

 

[shunyadragon]

bad post

 

[shunyadragon]

....Bacon & eggs, with pancakes & maple syrup. (Aka, "the gang of four.)

Fortunately I do not eat the "gang of four" except for eggs and I am healthier and happier for it.

More to follow . . .

 

[Mox]

Atheism, capitalism, evolution, & free speech...they all appeal to me for the sheer beauty
of how systems unfold from initial conditions to emergent properties both simple & complex.
.

Certainly economic systems are chaotic, in fact they are second order chaotic systems. As predictions made about the future economy, have the potential to, and invariably do, affect the future economy.

I am pro capitalist myself, however with caveats.
I am deeply suspicious of undemonstrated modern economic ''theories'' such as 'Tricke Down Economics' for example.

I think work should be worth it, living costs have to be met and workers pay should be sufficient to sustain those costs and leave enough aside for modest savings or important purchases, without sinking into or being lured into, debt.

I also think some socialist principles/initiatives, like social safety nets, are entirely reasonable.

As for evolution atheism and free speech, I am definately on board there.

Modern crony capitalism? With our nations becoming ever more convincing Corporate Bordellos? A system where 'we' literally reward the rich and punish the poor? Not so sure about that.

 

[Ponder This]

....Bacon & eggs, with pancakes & maple syrup. (Aka, "the gang of four.)

Occasionally posters express surprise that an atheist (moi) would be a capitalist.
They associate capitalism with Christianity. This strikes me as most odd,
because there's no obvious connection between them, yet the perception persists.
This raises a question....
What control relationships are there between various religious, economic & physical systems?

Systemic differences between capitalism & religions with The Truth delivered from on high,
eg, Christianity, Islam, are striking. Such faiths are centrally directed to a great degree.
God alone determines morality, & extensively regulates conduct. Islam regulates economic
conduct even more that Christianity. Thus the individual system elements (humans) behave
according to rigid scriptural dictates.
But capitalism is stochastic, since individuals each pursue their own economic self interest,
which can greatly vary from person to person. Thus the resulting capitalistic economy is
an emergent property of a system with random inputs from individuals & conditions.
(Note that government will set regulatory limits, within which this system evolves.)

Contrast capitalism with the another popularly advocated economic system, socialism.
It allows far less random input from the individuals, & far more from central planning.
The individual cannot act as independently, eg, start a company, hire workers, & engage
in commerce with others. Socialism resembles Christianity in being more rigidly organized,
with "top down" system controls.
(Parenthetical aside: Would this simple highly controlled system would enjoy greater
system stability than stochastic (chaotic) capitalism? An interesting discussion for later.)

Biological evolution resembles capitalism in that each player (eg, microbe, insect, dinosaur,
grizzly bear, human) desires to survive & reproduce. (Random system inputs are genetic
utation & environment.) Evolution of species is the emergent property of this system.
But Christian creationism is a polar opposite kind of system because God specifies all
change down to the smallest detail.

By now, the thoughtful reader (one patient in the face of a wall of text) sees where this
will lead regarding free speech, as opposed to speech tightly regulated by authorities.
So I'll spare you elaboration.



Atheism, capitalism, evolution, & free speech...they all appeal to me for the sheer beauty
of how systems unfold from initial conditions to emergent properties both simple & complex.
However, I do anticipate some disagreement.

Which one does atheism best fit with?
A. Free-Will (which would be... a stochastic process)
B. Determinism (which would be... a highly controlled system)

 

[Revoltingest]

Certainly economic systems are chaotic, in fact they are second order chaotic systems. As predictions made about the future economy, have the potential to, and invariably do, affect the future economy.

I am pro capitalist myself, however with caveats.
I am deeply suspicious of undemonstrated modern economic ''theories'' such as 'Tricke Down Economics' for example.

I think work should be worth it, living costs have to be met and workers pay should be sufficient to sustain those costs and leave enough aside for modest savings or important purchases, without sinking into or being lured into, debt.

I also think some socialist principles/initiatives, like social safety nets, are entirely reasonable.

As for evolution atheism and free speech, I am definately on board there.

Modern crony capitalism? With our nations becoming ever more convincing Corporate Bordellos? A system where 'we' literally reward the rich and punish the poor? Not so sure about that.

I didn't actually say that free speech, capitalism, evolution or atheism
are good. To find beauty in how a system functions is not to say that.
It's useful at times to think about something....mull over how it functions,
to analyze it, all without passing judgement on the results.
This is not to say that you shouldn't pass judgement.
But there's a loss of reason if one cannot suspend judgement at times.
This is because judgement laden analysis risks becoming rationalization.
We've seen this in scientific research many times.

I know that people will hate capitalism or hate socialism, hate Christianity
or atheism, hate evolution or hate creationism. I accept these preferences
in others without the need to change them, even though at times I might
want to. This thread isn't about changing any minds....it's just about
conveying a systems perspective.

 

[Mox]

But there's a loss of reason if one cannot suspend judgement at times.

As an INTJ personality type, I find that hard.

 

[PureX]

All economic systems are complex, man-made machines. They ALL need constant tweaking and adjusting and fine-tuning - like any complex machine.

We do have a HUGE problem with the oligarchs, no doubt. But that's because we've failed to keep the system properly tuned and adjusted.

I agree with the OP that as a starting point, capitalism is the best approach humans have cooked up so far.

Until you actually consider what capitalism is. Which is giving the capital investor complete control of the commercial enterprise invested in. And the reason this is so disastrous, and requires constant reigning in, is because the capital investor has only one goal: to maximize the profits returned on the capital he's invested. Goals such as the well-being of everyone else involved in the commercial enterprise (workers, buyers, suppliers, etc.), or of the health and welfare of the community and environment in which the enterprise operates, become antithetical to the investor's singular goal. To serve these other interests would inevitably interfere with the maximization of profits returned on the capital invested.

Capitalism serves only the capital investor. Which makes it toxic to the well-being of any society that allows it to flourish. Why so many people cannot understand this even as they are suffering the ill effects is difficult to understand. And yet it remains the case even after centuries of economic abuse and despair.

 

[Revoltingest]

Which one does atheism best fit with?
A. Free-Will (which would be... a stochastic process)
B. Determinism (which would be... a highly controlled system)

Any answer I give is problematic.
If I believe in free will (and I do), am I predetermined to feel this way?
I see this as unknowable.

But free will isn't a system.
It would be only a feature of one.

 

[Revoltingest]

As an INTJ personality type, I find that hard.

Oh, I used to know those types.
Please elucidate.

Btw, someone assigned me a type once.
I can't remember what it was.

 

[Mox]

I know that people will hate capitalism or hate socialism, hate Christianity
or atheism, hate evolution or hate creationism.

I see.

Well, certainly I would like to see more people taking an interest, whatever their party colours. Political apathy in democratic nations, is not conducive to the greater good. I think.

 

[Mox]

Oh, I used to know those types.
Please elucidate.

Btw, someone assigned me a type once.
I can't remember what it was.

Lonely space cadet crackpots, in short, apparently. Fairly accurate.

 

[Altfish]

Not surprised at all.

Let's be honest Trump is an atheist.

 

[Nakosis]

Atheism, capitalism, evolution, & free speech...they all appeal to me for the sheer beauty
of how systems unfold from initial conditions to emergent properties both simple & complex.
However, I do anticipate some disagreement.

What do you think of seeing Protestantism as a stochastic system?

It basically took the authority away from the Church and gave it to each individual through personal interpretation of the Bible so each individual can pursue their own spiritual self interest.

Protestantism supports individualism supports capitalism...

Protestants disliked the authority of the Church, they certainly aren't going to like the authority of the government much more.

It'd be interesting to explore why atheism hook up with socialism, though perhaps even this is simply an emergent property of a stochastic system.

 

[Revoltingest]

Not surprised at all.
Let's be honest Trump is an atheist.

Let's avoid discussing him in this thread.
Same for Hitler, Stalin & any Kardashian.

 

[icehorse]

Until you actually consider what capitalism is. Which is giving the capital investor complete control of the commercial enterprise invested in. And the reason this is so disastrous, and requires constant reigning in, is because the capital investor has only one goal: to maximize the profits returned on the capital he's invested. Goals such as the well-being of everyone else involved in the commercial enterprise (workers, buyers, suppliers, etc.), or of the health and welfare of the community and environment in which the enterprise operates, become antithetical to the investor's singular goal. To serve these other interests would inevitably interfere with the maximization of profits returned on the capital invested.

Capitalism serves only the capital investor. Which makes it toxic to the well-being of any society that allows it to flourish. Why so many people cannot understand this even as they are suffering the ill effects is difficult to understand. And yet it remains the case even after centuries of economic abuse and despair.

I think you're using one of the most extreme definitions I've heard. It also seems to assume that the investor will inevitably be interested in only short term gains. While this is often true, it's not built in to the system. The long term investor knows that "his" company has to contribute to a financially healthy community. I understand that this often doesn't happen, but again that's where the checks and balances come in.

 

[Mox]

Which one does atheism best fit with?
A. Free-Will (which would be... a stochastic process)
B. Determinism (which would be... a highly controlled system)

I don't believe true free will exists. Humans are instinctual emotial beings, they are partly hardwired to respond similarly to various universal situations by way of genomic expression and the resultant brain architecture. Moreover, human personalities and their decision making processes are also strongly influenced by their culture, their knowledge, their formative years, religious belief...and many other highly variable factors.