Atheism, Capitalism, Evolution, & Free Speech Go Together Like.....

[atanu]

"Oversimplified"?
You may feel free to offer the spiritual systems analysis perspective.

There are many debatable points in the OP that are based on your particular perspective. Below, I just point out one.

Biological evolution resembles capitalism in that each player (eg, microbe, insect, dinosaur,
grizzly bear, human) desires to survive & reproduce..

Biological evolution isn't operated by anyone.

Is there a contradiction in two above citations?

 

[Revoltingest]

There are many points in the OP, which are based on your particular perspective. Below, I just point out one.

This might come as a shock.....

Spoiler: Shocking revelation

When I post, I do so from my own perspective.
And I expect that others will offer their own too.

In comparing system controls, I did also consider "top down" religions.
So their perspective was offered too.

Is there a contradiction in two above citations?

No.

 

[atanu]

No.

Why no? I see contradiction, shown in blue and red below:

Biological evolution resembles capitalism in that each player (eg, microbe, insect, dinosaur,
grizzly bear, human) desires to survive & reproduce..

Biological evolution isn't operated by anyone.

The blue is as per the current understanding of TOE. But is the red considered relevant towards evolution?

Note: I consider the red most relevant. But I understand that the current understanding of TOE is that it is a blind process.

 

[Revoltingest]

Why no? I see contradiction, shown in blue and red below:
The blue is as per the current understanding of TOE. But is the red considered relevant towards evolution?

Note: I consider the red most relevant. But I understand that the current understanding of TOE is that it is a blind process.

Actions of the individual animals result in evolution.
These actions & their results aren't dictated by any single entity.
Would you explain the contradiction you see?

The desire to survive & reproduce is a result of evolution.
This is because those with the desire are more likely to
survive & reproduce than those without it.

 

[Ponder This]

Any answer I give is problematic.
If I believe in free will (and I do), am I predetermined to feel this way?
I see this as unknowable.

But free will isn't a system.
It would be only a feature of one.

if free will fits better, then I'll join in the delicious breakfast! Mmmm! Free Will!

But can free will be a feature of a deterministic system?

I don't believe true free will exists. Humans are instinctual emotial beings, they are partly hardwired to respond similarly to various universal situations by way of genomic expression and the resultant brain architecture. Moreover, human personalities and their decision making processes are also strongly influenced by their culture, their knowledge, their formative years, religious belief...and many other highly variable factors.

Some people are materialists who don't believe in God or souls.

Atheism would fit best with the science, which at present the most likely scenario a form of compatabilism.

A hybrid stochastic/deterministic model is treated similarly to a stochastic model, isn't it?
I suppose people can create hybrid capitalist/socialist systems.

 

[Revoltingest]

if free will fits better, then I'll join in the delicious breakfast! Mmmm! Free Will!

But can free will be a feature of a deterministic system?



Some people are materialists who don't believe in God or souls.



A hybrid stochastic/deterministic model is treated similarly to a stochastic model, isn't it?
I suppose people can create hybrid capitalist/socialist systems.

Arguments for or against free will all strike me as "not even wrong".
So the issue is irrelevant in analyzing a system.

You can design all sorts of systems which share features.
But in order to illustrate the concepts, I avoided hybrids.

 

[PureX]

This isn't true.
Ref....
http://www.corporatepolicy.org/2012/03/25/are-corporations-required-to-maximize-profits/
https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordeba...rs/corporations-dont-have-to-maximize-profits

How long do you think ANY CEO would last if he/she did not work consistently to maximize the profitable return of the capital invested, regardless of how many investors there are? Be honest.

 

[PureX]

That is common, but not universal.

Could a CEO be successfully sued for damages by shareholders if he deliberately acted against their (profit-taking) interests? I'm guessing that he most certainly could.

 

[Revoltingest]

Be honest.

I always am.
But I don't want you to derail the thread.
Feel free to bash whatever you want...just elsewhere.
This thread is about considering how systems are structured.

 

[Ponder This]

Arguments for or against free will all strike me as "not even wrong".
So the issue is irrelevant in analyzing a system.

You can design all sorts of systems which share features.
But in order to illustrate the concepts, I avoided hybrids.

I don't understand what the rightness or wrongness of free will has to do with this either.

I thought we were talking about stochastic vs deterministic systems
(with stochastic systems being filled with deliciousness).
Free Will is stochastic.
Determinism is... (dun dun DUN) deterministic!
(ignoring hybrid systems)

Atheism, on the other hand, appears to be irrelevant...

 

[Revoltingest]

Atheism, on the other hand, appears to be irrelevant...

I brought atheism into the discussion because so many find it at odds with capitalism.
We're supposed to be commies?
Communism & capitalism are very different kinds of systems.
This inspired the thread.
That is the relevance.

 

[Ponder This]

I brought atheism into the discussion because so many find it at odds with capitalism.
We're supposed to be commies?
Communism & capitalism are very different kinds of systems.
This inspired the thread.
That is the relevance.

Ah, well, all theists supposed to be witch-hunting warlords / mindless obedient slaves (usually both).

 

[shunyadragon]

A hybrid stochastic/deterministic model is treated similarly to a stochastic model, isn't it?
I suppose people can create hybrid capitalist/socialist systems.

It is not that simple. Denton's model of compatibilism is primarily deterministic, and others vary but at least acknowledge a deterministic foundation.

The present variation in different models involving determinism and Free Will are open to further scientific research and in my view has not been resolved. This is the reason I believe in the long run atheists, agnostics, and scientists in general leave the question open to a certain degree and unresolved.

 

[shunyadragon]

if free will fits better, then I'll join in the delicious breakfast! Mmmm! Free Will!

But can free will be a feature of a deterministic system?

In compatibilistic models Free Will is an element in these models to a varying degree. Most scientist regardless of the degree of Free Will all pretty much acknowledge determinism at its foundation.

There are a pyramid of causal factors in compatibilistic models. At it's base is natural determinism. Than the fractal nature of cause and effect relationships and human decisions described by Chaos theory. At the top of the pyramid is potential of Free Will limited by the natural determinsim at the base.

 

[Revoltingest]

In compatibilistic models Free Will is an element in these models to a varying degree. Most scientist regardless of the degree of Free Will all pretty much acknowledge determinism at its foundation.

I get the impression that you're claiming everything is predetermined,
but I don't think you would claim that.
It isn't clear what you're saying about stochastic systems vs fully
controlled ones like the creationism/versions origins of species.

 

[shunyadragon]

I get the impression that you're claiming everything is predetermined,
but I don't think you would claim that.
It isn't clear what you're saying about stochastic systems vs fully
controlled ones like the creationism/versions origins of species.

No, everything is not predetermined in compatibilistic models. First the range of our choices of our decision making process is limited by natural law, and the chain of previous cause and effect outcomes of events and decisions. Evidence indicates that there is fractal relationship in our choices within a range of our possible choices as is the range of possible cause and effect outcomes and relationships in the world around us.. Nonetheless there is empirical evidence humans have a range of choices in our decision making process. The question is the degree of Free will in this range of possible choices as described in compatabilistic models. This is not at present resolved.

 

[Revoltingest]

No, everything is not predetermined in compatibilistic models. First the range of our choices of our decision making process is limited by natural law, and the chain of previous cause and effect outcomes of events and decisions. Evidence indicates that there is fractal relationship in our choices within a range of our possible choices as is the range of possible cause and effect outcomes and relationships in the world around us.. Nonetheless there is empirical evidence humans have a range of choices in our decision making process. The question is the degree of Free will in this range of possible choices as described in compatabilistic models. This is not at present resolved.

OK.

 

[shunyadragon]

I brought atheism into the discussion because so many find it at odds with capitalism.
We're supposed to be commies?
Communism & capitalism are very different kinds of systems.
This inspired the thread.
That is the relevance.

Actually I consider economic systems as primarily independent of religious beliefs or non-beliefs. Economic systems are primarily a result of natural opportunistic human evolution, and the roots of capitalism and believe it or not socialism in terms of communalism are found in Neolithic societies in trade and trade routes and community structure found in primitive villages.

 

[shunyadragon]

Personally I see most of the advocates of the extremes of Free Will and determinism to have an agenda to justify their view.

 

[Revoltingest]

Actually I consider economic systems as primarily independent of religious beliefs or non-beliefs. Economic systems are primarily a result of natural opportunistic human evolution, and the roots of capitalism and believe it or not socialism in terms of communalism are found in Neolithic societies in trade and trade routes and community structure found in primitive villages.

In the OP, I treated economic systems separately from religion.