Atheism and arrogance

[mikkel_the_dane]

That's what I said.
Using the values as premises, one may reason objectively from them.
Thus humans have both subjectivity and objectivity.

As long as you understand the limits of reason, then yes.

I have none....only personal preferences.
What do you have?

Well, none. I am like you.

 

[PureX]

Who am I to argue that life isn't bad for many - see my latest thread.

But you can't argue with the fact that there is no higher authority (for many) than God or some other divine reality, for which one has no reasonable redress or argument - and that tends to come from belief in some written text, enforced by appropriate religious authorities (like every Sunday for many). I think that is the essential difference (and danger) between religious beliefs and any other ideology.

When one's God becomes a text written by other men, one has adopted a very weak and impotent God. And everyone but himself will see it.

There are no "religious authorities". This is rule #1 of religiosity. Anyone who claims to stand between you and God is a liar, a Charlatan, and probably a huckster. Religions are tools, only. Not "authorities". People who want religion to become our 'authority' should not be listened to.

 

[Mock Turtle]

When one's God becomes a text written by other men, one has adopted a very weak and impotent God. And everyone but himself will see it.

There are no "religious authorities". This is rule #1 of religiosity. Anyone who claims to stand between you and God is a liar, a Charlatan, and probably a huckster. Religions are tools, only. Not "authorities". People who want religion to become our 'authority' should not be listened to.

Well I wish many more got that message.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Not when I know they are prone to lie, even to themselves.

Now that is just another nasty accusation! All the atheists on the forum are prone to lie, are we?

 

[ecco]

Even children can and will reject an imposed 'belief' when it doesn't work for them, or make sense to them. They will believe whatever their experience of reality tells them is true, just the same as anyone else does.

You seem to believe that experience teaches reality. Experience can only teach reality if it can overcome beliefs indoctrinated during childhood. The evidence for this:
In general...

• Children raised as Catholics remain Catholics
• Children raised as Sunnis remain Sunnis
• Children raised as [fill in the name of any religious sect] remain [fill in the name of the same religious sect]

Due to marriages and other social pressures, or due to a rejection of parents' religious views, some people change their religious affiliation or become atheists. I think the former outweighs the latter significantly.

 

[ecco]

This mod replies in such a fashion because I speak against homosexuality and believe in God who forbade it and they are, I think, a homosexual.

I'm not a mod.
I'm not a homosexual.
If someone speaks out against homosexuality because their mythical man in the sky said homosexuality is a bad thing, then I will speak out against such superstitious ignorance whenever and wherever.

 

[Revoltingest]

I am like you.

You have my condolences.

 

[ecco]

Not when I know they are prone to lie, even to themselves

I do believe you just accused all atheists of being liars.

I am an atheist.

You accused me of being a liar.

I challenge you to show where I have lied.

 

[ecco]

The english language isn't strong here, is it?

What do you mean by "strong"?

 

[PureX]

You seem to believe that experience teaches reality. Experience can only teach reality if it can overcome beliefs indoctrinated during childhood. The evidence for this:
In general...

• Children raised as Catholics remain Catholics
• Children raised as Sunnis remain Sunnis
• Children raised as [fill in the name of any religious sect] remain [fill in the name of the same religious sect]

Due to marriages and other social pressures, or due to a rejection of parents' religious views, some people change their religious affiliation or become atheists. I think the former outweighs the latter significantly.

People retain these ideals because they find that they align with (function within) their experience of reality.

 

[blü 2]

I can give you a description of God but there is no objective test we can use to determine if God exists or not.

God is not anthropomorphic, and transcends all human limitations and forms, and is obviously beyond any human comprehension. That puts us in a tight spot for testing.

Ah, then you don't have a description of a real God, which is the point I was making.

My view is that things can be real ─ have objective existence, be found in nature &c ─ or purely conceptual / imaginary.

There's no third choice because there's no test that can distinguish the spiritual, supernatural, immaterial or divine from the imaginary. They too have no description appropriate to anything real.

 

[ecco]

This is the tactic used by disbelievers to prevent unity among believers.

Following Mohammed's death, two factions vied for leadership of Islam.

Are you contending that one of these groups comprised "disbelievers"? If so, which one and what is it that made them "disbelievers"?

Do you believe that one of the factions was led by arrogant atheists?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

...
My view is that things can be real ─ have objective existence, be found in nature &c ─ or purely conceptual / imaginary.

...

And your view is not a real thing, it is purely conceptual/imagined.

 

[ecco]

People retain these ideals because they find that they align with (function within) their experience of reality.

Alternatively...

People's experiences of reality are aligned to the reality shaped by their childhood indoctrination.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Alternatively...

People's experiences of reality are aligned to the reality shaped by their childhood indoctrination.

Yea, nature and nurture. That also applies to non-religious humans. There is not just a strong objective reality, there is always also culture, psychology and so on.

 

[Windwalker]

Ah, then you don't have a description of a real God, which is the point I was making.

My view is that things can be real ─ have objective existence, be found in nature &c ─ or purely conceptual / imaginary.

I'll jump in here simply because we haven't had a discussion in a long while. How are you doing?

The highest mystical realizations occur when all conceptions of God are gotten rid of, which means any definitions our minds try to create to make God an object for observation. To define God, becomes then looking at an image of the mind, our "imagination" as you rightly put it.

So the goal is to open the mind, to move beyond imagining, not to close the mind around God, reducing it to an object, like a dog, or a cat, or even something more mysterious like a bigfoot, or a loch ness monster.

There's no third choice because there's no test that can distinguish the spiritual, supernatural, immaterial or divine from the imaginary. They too have no description appropriate to anything real.

Descriptions of experience are pointers to something real, even if it that something real is immaterial, like love, hope, joy, peace, or God. "God" as a word by its usage in language is meant to point to something transcendent; not something tangible like a rock or a tree. It describes something ineffable, which is a perception and experience of reality that goes beyond words and language.

To say God can't be proved by scientific testing is absolutely correct. It also is consistent with the claim that God is transcendent. One should wholly expect such an attempt to fail, the same way you'd expect trying scoop up water with a fork would fail.

 

[blü 2]

And your view is not a real thing, it is purely conceptual/imagined.

Indeed. However, I've taken that into consideration, and find no threat in it to what I'm saying.

Especially when you consider that all thoughts are brain states and all brain states are physical.

 

[McBell]

Basics of Islam.

um...
Are you saying that Islam is basically double speak?

 

[PureX]

Alternatively...

People's experiences of reality are aligned to the reality shaped by their childhood indoctrination.

All experience is "indoctrination". It either sticks with us or it doesn't depending on whether or not it works for us.

 

[columbus]

um...
Are you saying that Islam is basically double speak?

Arrogant, immoral, double speak.
Basically.

Not all Muslims are, by any stretch. But that's what Islam teaches.
Tom