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Featured Are atheists liars, deniers or..?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by illykitty, Jan 10, 2017.

  1. Neo Deist

    Neo Deist Th.D. & D.Div.

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    Except for deists... :D
     
  2. illykitty

    illykitty Well-Known Member

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    I dont know if the multiverses exist, it's way beyond me. As for your example, The problem is that I don't see any "help" written in the sand. Maybe there's a vague pattern and you personally interpret it as a message. I see a few rocks scrambled around in a random pattern whilst you insist it "clearly" is someone that spelled out "help". The human brain is fascinating in that it can see patterns in a lot of things, thats how we got the constellations for instance.

    Also I have to note that so far, all the responses that have validated my post don't seem to have read it (or at least not with care). Either that or it's inconvieniant to aknowledge my attempts, the silence, the problems I encountered and thus resort to throwing rehearsed answers.
     
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  3. illykitty

    illykitty Well-Known Member

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    Like you said, it's not obvious. I couldn't understand you the first time I encountered your posts and unfortunately I dont encounter many people like you. Many have a classical monotheistic concept box, regardless of being theist or atheist.

    But do you think if someone had a similar level of understanding to yours or better would still possibly identify as an atheist?

    Well you know that you have influenced my views and definitions of gods and theological concepts, but my problem arises when people attempt to force a specific concept on others and then throw accusations when one doesn't accept that concept. Accusations are then thrown and one is called a liar, hypocrite and somon.

    Using a similar definition of gods as you do it could be argued I have gods which I revere and are central to my behaviour in life. And to those that use more of a classical one, I'd be considered an atheist and/or materialistic pantheist.

    For anyone confused by this, honestly I don't blame you, it's complicated! :p I don't make any claims to know this stuff, I'm a newbie.
     
  4. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    That's kind of a self-fulfilling truth though. 'quality' is a judgement call, so all you're really saying is that people who judge atheists in this 2-dimensional fashion aren't 'quality' theists, with 'quality' being a judgement on their rationalism rather than their faith. Fair enough, but to be clear, I have often heard variations of the 'open your heart and you'll find God' nonsense, primarily from Christians and Muslims. Also to be clear, there are a lot of Christians and Muslims who DON'T fall into this trap, and see atheists as whole people, with good/bad/honest/liars just like any other group.

    Exploration of other paradigms and belief systems is good advice.
     
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  5. Guy Threepwood

    Guy Threepwood Mighty Pirate

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    Point being, that you would deduce intelligent agency in this case without any direct empirical evidence, because there are other forms of evidence, power of explanation, logical deduction.

    And this applies to any explanation for our existence, we're all taking our best guess, there is no 'default' -no precedent for how universes are 'usually' created and hence the burden of proof lies with any explanation, they must stand on their own merits

    So if there is a denial in atheism, it is a denial of it's own faith. Blind faith is faith which does not recognize itself as such.
     
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  6. illykitty

    illykitty Well-Known Member

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    I made an edit to clarify things in the original post, or at least I hope it does. I need to work at that some more. It was meant to be more specific.
     
  7. james bond

    james bond Well-Known Member

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    OT: I wasn't implying they were, but pointing out the trend is to the far left. For example, Hillary Clinton and her pals are further to the left now than they were before Obama took over. What I don't like about the Democratic Party are the superdelegates instead of just delegates. Bernie Sanders had to have superdelegates in his corner in order to secure the nomination. He had zilch. Thus, Clinton was guaranteed to secure the nomination before the party's election even if Sanders won. Look at all the money she had over Sanders. If I was a Democrat, then I would be a DINO and their voices aren't heard in the party. I would've voted for Sanders. I thought Trump would be different, but it appears that he has kowtowed to big money and the far right in naming his cabinet. That's a huge disappointment. The only reason I'm a Pub is because I do better under capitalism than socialism.
     
  8. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Living Dead Girl

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    Hardly. Bernie Sanders is the Left-most politician in Washington, quiet a few steps to the Left from the average Democrat and Liberal. None of them are advocated the government take over of any businesses.
     
  9. james bond

    james bond Well-Known Member

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    Ha ha. Well, he fooled me. He's more libertarian, too. I just checked. Clinton is about the same far left, too, but more populist. I want somebody closer to the center.

    Sanders
    Bernie Sanders on the Issues

    Clinton
    Hillary Clinton on the Issues
     
  10. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Living Dead Girl

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    Largely and mostly, social issues are a given on the Left. We tend to not need a special label indicating we are pro-gay marriage, pro-pot, and so on. As for Sanders, he is a Socialist Democrat.
     
  11. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    Oh, wait. Are you meaning to say that of course atheists, lacking the fear of God that would be a needed deterrent, will lie and deny at least as much as Muslims?

    That is not at all true, but even leaving that aside, the OP clearly addresses "lies" and "denial" on the matter of whether we believe in God's existence".
     
  12. JustWondering

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    Fundies like the ones you described are a blessing in disguise for atheists though. One of them does more damage to and drives more people away from their crazy beliefs than 1000 atheists could. Just let them do their thing.
     
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  13. Soundwave99

    Soundwave99 Member

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    I like how you think;). Seriously though, I do agree that those Fundies will push people away. However, they do concern me since they want to either convert me (often by any means necessary, even through legislation), harass me or in extreme cases (ISIS) kill me. Annnnnnd I live in the US where a bunch of them are about to take office. So I'm a bit worried about Fundies and what they can do.
     
  14. interminable

    interminable منتظر

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    Sir
    I wanna say for accepting something regardless of representing logical arguments and evidences the debaters should have scruple.
    Without this everything that exchange between them maybe is useless because the other side doesn't believe that he shouldn't tell lie. Or at least he doesn't expect punishment for denial and ....honesty is very important. I don't know how we can prove it
     
  15. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    Then we are in agreement on that much.

    It is too bad that this does not seem to lead us too far towards the same conclusions.

    Two issues here.

    First, I take it that when an atheist is called "denier" simply by virtue of being na atheist, what is meant is presumably that somehow the person is not truly an atheist, but someone who oddly believers or knows of the existence of a god yet refuses to admit so. Hence "denier", after "denial of (the existence) of (a) god".

    My apologies if that is not what you mean by "denier" and "denial".

    But if it is, then, as we use to say in the English language, it is a simple matter of the shoes not fitting. The idea that atheists are deniers is very much a fantasy without connection to the reality of facts.

    My second issue is that you seem to believe that to avoid lies it is somehow useful or perhaps even necessary to fear being punished, presumably by a temporary or permanente stay in some form of hell after death.

    Such a belief, I am sorry to say, is just not worth keeping at all. It is neither healthy nor useful nor accurate, and causes quite a lot of damage. It also causes the perhaps lesser harm of encouraging those wild misconceptions about atheists.
     
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  16. adrianhindes

    adrianhindes Active Member

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    I am a member of a religious community and find that most people I come across are reasonable and courteous. However I've experienced attitudes from the occasional atheist that have left me cold. Respect and courtesy works both ways and when two peope argue about religion they are both wrong.
     
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  17. interminable

    interminable منتظر

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    If I could convince u to write simply this would be a miracle[emoji16] [emoji16] [emoji16]
     
  18. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Are you suggesting that atheists are Republican? I'm shocked. What a heinous accusation!
     
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  19. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    It is my experience that without a certain degree of variation and redundance in my writing people will often fail to read what I write and instead pick and choose sparse elements to confirm what they want to read instead. I decided to block that if I could help it.

    In any case, since you ask, I will try a simpler wording now.

    1. Fear of punishment in hell is not helpful in encouraging people not to lie.

    2. Nor is that fear useful in making people more moral in other ways, either. Fear and morality are not friends to each other.

    3. Atheism is not at all caused by "lying" about the matter of existence of God. We, quite simply, do not believe in the existence of a god. It is really that simple.

    4. Calling an atheist a "denier" is just strange. What would there be to be denied?
     
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  20. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    I never use such words about Atheists or like of them.
    They are just wrong. Please
    Regards
     
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