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Featured Are atheists liars, deniers or..?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by illykitty, Jan 10, 2017.

  1. illykitty

    illykitty RF's pet cat

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    Pagan-ish, kind-of pantheist?
    Or insert any other theory about why atheists don't believe. It's interesting, because this accusation is sometimes thrown around by some members on RF.

    EDIT: I should have made this more clear, I'm talking mainly of a rigid concept of god here, mostly in a classical monotheistic sense. Also even if you do espouse such a god concept, it's possible you do not make such accusations so no worries here, I'm ranting about those who do.

    If god is so evident, how come I don't feel it is? If god was obvious, I wouldn't have spent all this time searching, praying to get a sign, reading books and so on. It would just be obvious and I would just believe in god. I don't reject the possibility of a god existing, I just don't have a reason to believe it does because I don't see it as obvious.

    What is obvious about something you can't see, talk to, verify, hear, feel and so on? It's invisible, not detectable at all. How am I supposed to believe in something like that? Why does god expect me to believe when I can't even verify anything? People in the past had god talk directly to them and prophets talked to god, why can't I? I tried many times, never worked. All I hear in my head is my own voice, and outside of my head, nothing.

    If god exists, it created me with a mind that questions things, that can't believe just because someone tells me to. My mind was made to accept evidence that was tested, born from sound theories and inquisition. My mind accepts there are mysteries, maybe some will never be understood, but science has a tract record of revealing these mysteries and finding how things work rather than just assuming "god did it". Then if god exists and he knows this is how my mind works, it makes no sense for it to think I would just believe. Think about it.

    It's much easier to just think that atheists or non-theists are defective, liars or deniers than to admit that maybe that "theory" is wrong and god isn't obvious. I'll be the first to admit being wrong if I could come upon how evident god is. I'm not sure I can say the same of people who throw these accusations around.

    I'm sorry for my harsh tone but it really bothers me when people say things like that. You don't know every atheist's life and how some either believed in the past or tried to believe but couldn't. Speaking for myself, I wanted so badly to believe that god exists, to the point of trying to fool myself, and yet nothing happened. I struggled so much. You have no idea of the hardships in my life and how it would be easier if I could believe in a god.

    This thread does come off as a rant, but I've put it in this section so that people can speak freely and debate.
     
    #1 illykitty, Jan 10, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2017
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  2. LuisDantas

    LuisDantas Aura of atheification
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    "Or...", definitely.

    To elaborate a bit, (typically?) we just don't feel any particular tendency to presume a conscious intent behind existence or nature.
     
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  3. Hubert Farnsworth

    Hubert Farnsworth Active Member

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    Many atheists are critical thinkers, who view have carefully thought about religious beliefs and view them as being illogical. The existence of a deity is genuinely difficult for them to believe in. Some (a small minority) of self-declared atheists (particularly among the youth) may be declaring themselves to be "atheists" out of insecurity because they subconsciously believe that calling themselves an "atheist" somehow makes them smarter than theists, although of course it does not.
     
  4. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    Here's the thing about belief in God: it isn't just something that people intellectually assent to; it's something that people consider absolutely vital.

    From that perspective, it would be completely worldview-shattering to accept that someone could function perfectly well while all the while assuming that no gods exist. It would imply that even if gods do exist, they're utterly irrelevant to what we experience... which to many believers is just as much a threat to their belief system as their god not existing at all would be.

    Imagine you were in a submarine and looked out a porthole to see someone just hanging out under the water. No scuba tank, no air hose, no signs of distress... just sitting in an easy chair, reading a (waterproof) book for hours on end. You'd assume that the guy was playing some sort of trick, right? "He must have some sort of hidden air tube running behind him where I can't see or something, because I *know* he can't breathe underwater!"

    Now imagine you thought that faith in God was just as necessary as oxygen: of course you'd assume that someone who claims to be godless is lying. Any other explanation implies that belief in God is optional.

    Edit: it gets worse for Hell-believers, because if someone acknowledges that a person can maintain atheism validly, then this implies that consigning atheists to Hell is evil... and so is a god that does this.

    Bottom line: the idea that there can be honest, sincere, reasonable atheists is a major threat to the belief systems of many religious people.
     
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  5. George-ananda

    George-ananda Advaita and Spiritualist and Pantheist
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    Well, first of all I really don't hear any quality non-atheists saying atheists are liars and deniers. The thread title comes off like someone who needs a good rant.

    But anyway, you might want to consider more eastern/pantheistic views also, that God and creation are not-two. You may be trying to find a God external to you when God may be internal. I believe consciousness is all One and by quieting the noise in our heads we can start the process of feeling the peace and unity as opposed to being separates external to each other. Just some food for thought.
     
  6. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    Try searching for the phrase "the fool says in his heart there is no God" here or on Google and see how many hits you get. It's cold comfort that you don't consider all of those real-world theists to be "quality". Maybe a lot of religion is just not "quality non-atheism."
     
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  7. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    I'm basically in the same boat. Though I have to admit that I probably didn't try as hard as you may have to commune with God. I would more often take the prescriptions of my Christian friends and family, try it out tepidly for a bit of time, only to realize how senseless it was to believe that any of it would some how "hook me up" to God. I can't say I was ever really anxious about it, and in the end came to feel that none of it really mattered as far as I was concerned.

    I have only ever felt that I need to come to my own conclusions, and that taking anyone's word for it (without evidence) is just as senseless. Even scientists, to an extent. I don't care about "The Big Bang"... don't really care if there are "admissions" by scientists that they aren't sure if X, Y or Z is possible - for example, abiogenesis. I don't really need an explanation for what created what. If there ends up being evidence for it at some point, awesome - otherwise, it doesn't matter how things ended up here - they are here, and there's no reason at all to assume "God" put it here. Assuming that is just as arbitrary as any other explanation without evidence. Aliens did it. It's all magical unicorn crap. An immortal lobster constantly creates and recreates the universe with his mind. Whatever. It is all arbitrary.

    What most don't realize or accept is that there is evidence all around us of the universe simply handling itself - conducting "business as usual" all the time, without a need for an intervening or creative hand. They don't grasp just how much and far-reaching that activity is. So that's where my allegiance stands at the moment. I believe the universe is always on auto-pilot. Exists, always has, and always will. Specific laws and rules (also ever-present) dictate what goes on. Otherwise it's a free-for-all of gravity, energies, elements seeking stable configuration, etc. And I'll readily admit that even THAT view is only a possibility - even arbitrary. But it makes a hell of a lot more sense to me - and doesn't require any suspension of disbelief when compared to the universe and world I can readily examine with my senses.
     
    #7 A Vestigial Mote, Jan 10, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2017
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  8. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    They're just ordinary people who don't believe in God.
     
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  9. Altfish

    Altfish Well-Known Member

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    There is so much wrong with this, I hardly know where to start.

    I do NOT consider a belief in a deity vital. I don't know any other non-believer who does.

    I'm not aware that my non-belief effects how I function in any way at all.
    The existence of these elusive deity are irrelevant to me. Why would a god be any use to me?
    Yes, I would assume he was playing a trick or had a hidden scuba system.
    But I DON'T thing that faith in god was as necessary as oxygen.
    Why would a godless person be lying?
    God IS optional.
    But you are threatening/promising something I don't believe in. Atheists don't believe in Hell or Heaven for that matter
    There are honest, sincere, reasonable atheists; there are many of us.
    So to follow your analogy your belief system is being threatened.
     
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  10. Servant_of_the_One1

    Servant_of_the_One1 Well-Known Member

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    From islamic perspective they are denniers(kuffar).


    The consequence for denying the existence of Creator and Judgement day is severe:

    66. And man (the disbeliever) says: "When I am dead, shall I then be raised up alive?"

    67. Does not man remember that We created him before, while he was nothing?

    68. So by your Lord, surely, We shall gather them together, and (also) the Shayatin (devils) (with them), then We shall bring them round Hell on their knees.

    69. Then indeed We shall drag out from every sect all those who were worst in obstinate rebellion against the Most Beneficent (Allah).

    70. Then, verily, We know best those who are most worthy of being burnt therein.

    The promise of Allah will come true, it is only time that makes them feel it wont happen.
     
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  11. illykitty

    illykitty RF's pet cat

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    Have you even read what I wrote?

    Well, I guess it depends on what you mean by quality, but yeah of course it doesn't apply to everyone. I think many theists are decent and understand. Vice versa for me. I understand for instance your example of non-dualism, even though personally I take a more materialistic approach. I can be considered simultaneously an atheist and pantheist, depending on the definition.
     
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  12. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    Reminds me of a Christmas card someone once sent me.

    On the front it said "on this happy day, remember that Jesus arrived in this world to redeem everybody's sins"

    Inside: "Except yours, you're a ****"
     
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  13. illykitty

    illykitty RF's pet cat

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    Wow, that is a pretty horrible attitude to have! Don't know how anyone would take the time to actually give this to someone. I mean, sure, believe that god will judge, but to live in hate towards others... Doesn't sit well with me. :/
     
  14. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    Sorry, should have mentioned it was a joke from a friend. With my puerile sense of humour I found it pretty funny. Had a cute baby Jesus on the front and everything.
     
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  15. Jonathan Ainsley Bain

    Jonathan Ainsley Bain Logical Positivist

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    That is not so much a rant. It seems a fair, authentic, and well expressed perspective.
    And yet, it perplexes me how you cannot appreciate the 'argument from design'.
    I only had to hear those 3 words, and I knew what it meant.

    The laws of physics and math are just so precisely balanced that they could only have been designed.
    Just consider Pythagorus' triangle: 3^2 + 4^2 = 5^2
    How is that random or chaotic?
     
  16. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    I think you completely misinterpreted my post.

    Edit: do you realize that I'm an atheist?
     
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  17. interminable

    interminable منتظر

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    Muslims are warned punishments and u can see how they live
    Let alone atheists
     
  18. Deathbydefault

    Deathbydefault Apistevist Asexual Atheist

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    "They" as in "us atheists" are deniers?
    I can rightfully assume that this is your direct meaning, correct?

    Wow, I might've been scared if I bothered to care.

    Let it happen, wont change my mind.
     
  19. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
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    The argument from design is irrational. It's a special case of the argument from ignorance: "I can think of anything natural that could have done _____,so God must have done it."

    The argument from design is a failure of logic and critical thinking.
     
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  20. Kilgore Trout

    Kilgore Trout Misanthropic Humanist

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    Yes, I'm a denier. I deny irrationality. I realize most other people are just fine with irrationality, and I accept their flaw.
     
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