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"Alabama Christian Lobby Argues Classroom Yoga Would Violate Establishment Clause"

Good-Ole-Rebel

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the reference. I did some further research on my own as well to uncover a lot of history with this question. It was very informative. What I gathered from that and the other references I found I can try to briefly summarize.

There are Hindus who decry the "gutting" of the religious aspects of yoga by Westerners. They would typically represent a traditionalist perspective. It would much like a Catholic being upset by some other culture co-opting genuflections for some other popular, capitalistic purpose.

They are one voice weighing in on what the West has done with yoga. And that argument makes the case that what you see in your school, is NOT what the Hindus who decry the exploitation of what to them is a religious practice, for secular, capitalistic purposes.

That supports what the judge in these cases has ruled, that is is not in the form you see, a religious practice. If it were, these Hindus would be happy about it. But they are not happy about it. To these Hindus, it's not really yoga because it's not a religious practice.

But the deeper and more salient thing that I discovered is in this other well-informed article I found. What is the actual history of yoga? Did it actually begin as a religious practice, or was it something that religions adopted that began as something independent from them?

My gut feeling had been telling me that was the case, as I study and practice Taijiquan. The techniques it discovered with utilizing what is comparable to yoga practices, are the sorts of things that make you optimally balanced, mentally and physically, which results in a deeper sense of connection with reality, what I call the "spiritual" nature of life. These are things that were discovered, and then brought into the practices.

Same thing with yoga being brought into religion. But I should point out it was not just HInduism, but Buddhism, and others as well. So it did not originate in Hinduism.

Here's a good article that outlays why the misconception that it 4000 years old, is likely in error. He gets into the why of that in his article, but I'll highlight the salient points you should consider:

A more sober reading of the historical record suggests that the types of spiritual exercises we now categorize together as yoga, including methods of breath control, mental concentration, and seated postures, developed in the first millennium BCE in South Asia. The development of these exercises was not the exclusive “intellectual property” of any single sect or religion. Rather, it was a project shared among diverse groups that we may retrospectively label “Hindu,” “Buddhist,” and “Jain,” along with other sects, such as the “Fatalists” (Ajivikas), whose teachings have largely been lost. Thus we find, in the second half of the first millennium BCE, the first unambiguous references to “yoga” and meditation (dhyana) in certain late sections of the Vedas, along with the early texts of the Buddhists and Jains.19 As the influential historian Johannes Bronkhorst usefully reminds us, “The spiritual discipline yoga does not belong to any philosophical system, but may, or may not, get connected with a variety of philosophies, depending on the circumstances.”20 Neither Patanjali, nor the Buddhists, nor the Pasupatas suggested that yoga belonged only to one group. Yoga in classical India was like open-source software. It was distributed freely and modified by different authors, all competing to come up with the best version for liberation.

Source

It's the same sort of thing with the martial arts. They are at its core, physical exercises. Secondarly, they may, or may not be, adopted to fit into spiritual practice. Many athletes take advantage of this for better fitness and health and energy. Again, the actual source of these things, is the human body itself. That makes it transportable, even into the completely non-religious secularized version of it you see in your classroom.

All that said however, I do understand how those who are unaware of these things, might see them fearfully as they come from another culture than their own. If they see life through the lens that other religions are devil worshippers, then anything associate with them, are viewed as satanically influenced. This is of course not supported by what you see above, but I do recognize that some think that way. It's difficult to overcome fear with reason. It's a primal response sort of emotion.

You want references instead of my opinion, I give you a reference. You reject it because it is a biased reference. So I give you an unbiased reference. But your 'gut feeling' tells you otherwise. So you go find a reference that sides with your gut. Everyone cries for references till you give some.

Nothing has changed. Yoga is a religious exercise and should not be allowed in the public school.

Good-Ole-Rebel
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You want references instead of my opinion, I give you a reference. You reject it because it is a biased reference. So I give you an unbiased reference. But your 'gut feeling' tells you otherwise. So you go find a reference that sides with your gut. Everyone cries for references till you give some.

Nothing has changed. Yoga is a religious exercise and should not be allowed in the public school.

Good-Ole-Rebel
I did not reject it. I referenced it as evidence that what you see in the West is viewed by Hindus as "not-religious". And your source supported what I've been saying all along. The reason I cited who I did, is because it was a more academic historical perspective looking at the historical data. I did not find that in your reference. There were multiple other sources I read as well, but chose that one because it cited actual historical data.

I do find modern scholarship to be preferable to premodern opinions. And sure, I am biased towards reason and facts in that way. That's a positive thing. In reality, the bias towards conclusions is on your end, not on mine. If the data had supported your position, I would have conceded my point happily in the interest of truth, unlike yourself. My only bias is towards solid arguments. You haven't presented that.

Are you going to say what he said is "wrong"? Then you need to address what he cited in my references, not just claim he is biased or something. What specifically is inaccurate in what he, or I said? You can't use "bias" as an excuse to not listen, when you can't show the actual reason why it's not valid.
 
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Good-Ole-Rebel

Well-Known Member
I did not reject it. I referenced it as evidence that what you see in the West is viewed by Hindus as "not-religious". And your source supported what I've been saying all along. The reason I cited who I did, is because it was a more academic historical perspective looking at the historical data. I did not find that in your reference. There were multiple other sources I read as well, but chose that one because it cited actual historical data.

I do find modern scholarship to be preferable to premodern opinions. And sure, I am biased towards reason and facts in that way. That's a positive thing. In reality, the bias towards conclusions is on your end, not on mine. If the data had supported your position, I would have conceded my point happily in the interest of truth, unlike yourself. My only bias is towards solid arguments. You haven't presented that.

Are you going to say what he said is "wrong"? Then you need to address what he cited in my references, not just claim he is biased or something. What specifically is inaccurate in what he, or I said? You can't use "bias" as an excuse to not listen, when you can't show the actual reason why it's not valid.

You need to pay attention. Yes, you did reject my reference. See post #(26). So, I gave you an unbiased reference. That reference stated the 'christian yoga' is an 'oxymoron'.

It doesn't matter what you or others want to call it. Yoga is a religious exercise, which Malhorta also stated. Thus enter (Acts 16:16-17). You remember those verses don't you? The ones you want to ignore.

Christian yoga is an oxymoron because yoga is a religious exercise. Thus as a religious exercise it has no place in our schools.

Good-Ole-Rebel
 
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columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Christian yoga is an oxymoron because yoga is a religious exercise. Thus as a religious exercise it has no place in our schools.
If yoga as generally practiced in the U.S. were a religious exercise I would totally agree with you.
But I've known more than a few people who did yoga. With only one exception, a Hindu, none of them considered it religious or even spiritual. It was a form of low impact exercise.
It's no more religious than a dude on the couch watching a TV basketball game is engaging in athletics.
Tom
 

Yazata

Active Member
The history and nature of Yoga is a very complicated subject that can only be addressed in a cursory fashion on a discussion board format. (There's a scholarly literature.)

The word 'yoga' most basically means 'religious practice' or 'soteriological path' in India, in Hinduism primarily, but also in Buddhism and Jainism. So any actual practice of religion would be a sort of yoga. Another word is 'marga' or 'path'.

The oldest surviving Indian writings on the subject might arguably be the Buddhist Pali canon with its Sila, Samatha and Vipissana. The Jains might even be earlier. Both arise from out of the ancient Sramana traditions, the forest ascetics. (Sramana origins and sources are murky and little known.)

A classical Hindu source is the Bhagavad Gita. This mentions three yogas: Karma Yoga, the yoga of ethical practice, Bhakti Yoga, the yoga of devotion to deities, and Jnana Yoga, the yoga of wisdom, seemingly including metaphysics and philosophy.

There's also a fourth yoga, Raja Yoga, which is more in tune with early Buddhist and Jain meditation practice. Its primary source is Patanjali's Yoga Sutras. This one is about achieving progressively higher mental states through meditation, leading to realization of the divine and moksha/liberation. So one often hears about the 'four yogas'. (Or more, the rest are often variants associated with particular teachers.)

Hatha Yoga, the physical yoga of asanas/postures is a relatively late arrival on the scene, dating from the tantric period of classical medieval India immediately before the Muslim invasions. It arrived joined at the hip to Kundalini Yoga, the yoga of subtle spiritual life energy that was thought to reside in the body (the base of the spine?) and could be aroused both for health or magical purposes by meditation or by physical postures and movements intended to free it up and to prevent blockages.

It was only in the twentieth century that hatha yoga started to be separated from its Hindu religious context in general and from its belief in kundalini and prana, and from its tantric mudras. It was promoted for health purposes in India and a succession of Indian teachers traveled to Europe and the United States, hoping to market their systems of somewhat secularized 'yoga' to Westerners. Which they did with some success, as seen in this thread.
 
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Good-Ole-Rebel

Well-Known Member
If yoga as generally practiced in the U.S. were a religious exercise I would totally agree with you.
But I've known more than a few people who did yoga. With only one exception, a Hindu, none of them considered it religious or even spiritual. It was a form of low impact exercise.
It's no more religious than a dude on the couch watching a TV basketball game is engaging in athletics.
Tom

Yoga is a religious exercise. If it is not a relgious exercise, it isn't yoga.

I have no problem with low impact exercise classes. I have no problem with basketball game, except I don't like basketball.

But if you are having yoga classes, you are having a religious exercise.

Good-Ole-Rebel
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
It is a religious exercise.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Because yoga is religious.

Good-Ole-Rebel

That it is a religious exercise was the point.

Good-Ole-Rebel

It is a question of it being a religious exercise. Which it is.

Good-Ole-Rebel

...yoga is a religious exercise.

Good-Ole-Rebel

It is a religious experience.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Yoga can be religious and is religious.
Good-Ole-Rebel

...yoga is a religious experience.

Good-Old-Rebel

But it is a religious practice.

Good-Ole-Rebel

...yoga is a religious exercise.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Yoga is a religious exercise.
Yoga is a religious exercise.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Yoga is a religious exercise...

Good-Ole-Rebel

Yoga is a religious exercise...

Good-Ole-Rebel

Yoga is a religious exercise.

Good-Ole-Rebel

I think we may have a new RF record!! You were wrong 15 times in one thread!! And even twice in one post!!
 

Yazata

Active Member
Yoga is a religious exercise. If it is not a relgious exercise, it isn't yoga.

Yes, I'm inclined to agree with you about that.

I have no problem with low impact exercise classes.

I don't have any problem with joint flexibility and stretching exercises in school physical education classes.

But... why call it "yoga"?

If yoga has meant religious practice from ancient times until the 20th century, calling it 'yoga' now is just an attempt to associate the ostensibly secular modern practice to a long lived and widely respected religious tradition (while simultaneously denying any connection). It looks faintly disingenuous.

But if you are having yoga classes, you are having a religious exercise.

It's like ethics. Ethics can be and often is approached in a secular manner. Philosophers do it all the time.

But if we call it Karma yoga, it suggests ethics pursued for traditional Hindu religious ends, as a Hindu religious practice. Just as Christian religious ethics/moral theology or Muslim religious ethics include religious presuppositions and purposes that might arguably make them problematic from the Establishment clause perspective.
 
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Heyo

Veteran Member
Yoga is a religious exercise. If it is not a relgious exercise, it isn't yoga.

I have no problem with low impact exercise classes. I have no problem with basketball game, except I don't like basketball.

But if you are having yoga classes, you are having a religious exercise.

Good-Ole-Rebel
So you aren't opposed to have yoga in schools, you are opposed to calling it yoga?
 

Good-Ole-Rebel

Well-Known Member
Yes, I'm inclined to agree with you about that.



I don't have any problem with joint flexibility and stretching exercises in school physical education classes.

But... why call it "yoga"?

If yoga has meant religious practice from ancient times until the 20th century, calling it 'yoga' now is just an attempt to associate the ostensibly secular modern practice to a long lived and widely respected religious tradition (while simultaneously denying any connection). It looks faintly disingenuous.



It's like ethics. Ethics can be and often is approached in a secular manner. Philosophers do it all the time.

But if we call it Karma yoga, it suggests ethics pursued for traditional Hindu religious ends, as a Hindu religious practice. Just as Christian religious ethics/moral theology or Muslim religious ethics include religious presuppositions and purposes that might arguably make them problematic from the Establishment clause perspective.

Yoga is not a term for 'exercise'. It itself is a term for 'religious exercise'. No need to add the word 'karma' in front of it to identify it as such.

Good-Ole-Rebel
 

Good-Ole-Rebel

Well-Known Member
An interesting question, does this pose the potential to be a real problem from your point of view? If so, how and why?

A question you do not attempt to answer. Instead you ask of me more questions.

Yoga in schools is a problem from my point of view. Just because a student says they are all for it is also immaterial. What does the parent say?


Good-Ole-Rebel
 

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
A question you do not attempt to answer. Instead you ask of me more questions.

Yoga in schools is a problem from my point of view. Just because a student says they are all for it is also immaterial. What does the parent say?


Good-Ole-Rebel

Indeed: what does the parent say? Aptly put.
And I think that that answers the question you asked me: "Is it the parent's decision?" Because either way, the parents will decide.

However, I did think you wanted a law answer. Last I checked, elective courses require a signature from a parent/guardian.
So I don't see a problem here.
 

Good-Ole-Rebel

Well-Known Member
Indeed: what does the parent say? Aptly put.
And I think that that answers the question you asked me: "Is it the parent's decision?" Because either way, the parents will decide.

However, I did think you wanted a law answer. Last I checked, elective courses require a signature from a parent/guardian.
So I don't see a problem here.

As I said, the problem is yoga in schools.

Good-Ole-Rebel
 

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
As I said, the problem is yoga in schools.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Fair enough. I think it's fine to object to having yoga taught in schools.

That's no necessarily synonymous with arguing that it would violate the Establishment Clause, which was the issue raised in the OP of this thread.
Of course, just because it would not violate the Establishment Clause doesn't necessarily mean that yoga in schools should be made lawful.

However, the reasons for the law forbidding yoga in schools have been found to not be the problem they were thought to be. This leaves open the question: What is the problem with yoga in schools?
 

Good-Ole-Rebel

Well-Known Member
Fair enough. I think it's fine to object to having yoga taught in schools.

That's no necessarily synonymous with arguing that it would violate the Establishment Clause, which was the issue raised in the OP of this thread.
Of course, just because it would not violate the Establishment Clause doesn't necessarily mean that yoga in schools should be made lawful.

However, the reasons for the law forbidding yoga in schools have been found to not be the problem they were thought to be. This leaves open the question: What is the problem with yoga in schools?

Which has already been stated. See post #(147). Yoga is a religious exercise.

Good-Ole-Rebel
 
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