"Alabama Christian Lobby Argues Classroom Yoga Would Violate Establishment Clause"

[McBell]

So?

Makes all your "Yoga is Hinduism" rants look rather asinine.
At least to those outside your head.

 

[shmogie]

You tell me.

Please share with me your understanding of yoga.

I have no understanding of it. That is irrelevant to the discussion.

My point is equality. Anything possibly related to Christianity, is banned in the classroom. This occurs to idiotic extremes with laughable arguments.

The worm has turned. Using the same style arguments, based in equal fact, yoga should be banned as a violation of the establishment clause. It is a practice of the Hindu religion, and came from that faith. The link is established.

The government is favoring one religious practice at the expense of all the others,

 

[SalixIncendium]

I have no understanding of it.

Clearly.

That is irrelevant to the discussion.

That is the discussion. But it is easier and more convenient to argue from ignorance, no?

 

[Windwalker]

I have no understanding of it. That is irrelevant to the discussion.

EXACTLY. You have no understanding of it. And that makes it absolutely relevant to the discussion. If you knew what you were talking about, there is not "equality" to be had here. You're dealing with apples and oranges. There is no comparison between the two.

My point is equality. Anything possibly related to Christianity, is banned in the classroom. This occurs to idiotic extremes with laughable arguments.

It's not another religion. It's not even a religious practice in how it is used. All of that is removed from it. End of story. You have no valid argument.

 

[Sand Dancer]

.


It was just a matter of time.

"The Alabama State Board of Education says it’s part of a prohibition on “the use of hypnosis and dissociative mental states” that also covers now-common practices like guided imagery and meditation. (It can, however, be taught in high school physical education classes as long as nobody uses the y-word.)

The concerns represented by the current state of the law are outdated. Meditative practices like mindfulness and guided imagery have been studied intensively and found to offer plenty of benefits in areas like stress-reduction, focus, and self-awareness. Yoga provides all this and more, helping children hone developing physical skills like balance, endurance, flexibility, and strength.

So State Rep. Jeremy Gray, a Democrat, has introduced HB 235 to reverse the ban on yoga in particular.

Since the bill’s introduction in February, a local Christian advocacy group has come forward in opposition, arguing — get this — that yoga in schools would violate the Establishment Clause.

The charge against HB 235 is being led by Dr. Joe Godfrey, executive director of Alabama Citizens’ Action Program (ALCAP), a local group lobbying for evangelical Christians’ interests in the legislature.

Godfrey admits that his own daughter laughed at his concerns, but he remains adamant that yoga is a religious practice that must not be taught in the classroom:

You can’t separate the exercises from the religious meditation aspect of it. This is Hinduism, straight up. What you’re doing is blatantly teaching a religious exercise that would violate the Establishment Clause.​

I promise you no student has ever walked out of a yoga class pledging allegiance to Shiva or Vishnu.

The argument is laughable for other reasons. Good News Clubs evangelizing children? Courses on Bible literacy? School-sponsored baptism? All fine and dandy, according to these people.

A secularized version of a historically Hindu practice, presented without proselytizing? Not acceptable.

Representatives on both sides of the aisle say they don’t accept Godfrey’s reasoning. As Republican State Rep. Danny Garrett points out, Christianity has adapted plenty of practices that used to belong to other religions — Christmas trees, for instance, or the Easter bunny — without endorsing those religions’ beliefs. And some local churches are already doing the same with yoga, offering a Christian version of the practice alongside social gatherings and Bible studies."
source

.​

They want prayer in schools, which does nothing, but don't want something beneficial. Of course!

 

[Sand Dancer]

I have a book on Zen meditation by a Jesuit priest. When he went to Japan in the 30s, he got interested in meditation and asked a Zen master if you had to be a Buddhist to learn it. He was told that meditation was nothing to do with religion, so he learnt it and eventually wrote the book.

Of course I'd expect a Jesuit to be better educated and more intelligent than the sort of "Christian" you get in red-neck country — especially the sort who fly the Confederate flag.

Thomas Merton?

 

[Sand Dancer]

.

My point is equality. Anything possibly related to Christianity, is banned in the classroom. This occurs to idiotic extremes with laughable arguments.

,

Have you been in schools lately? The fundy congress is trying to actively put Christianity into schools.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

No, I'm not. Your reading comprehension seems to be on par with your ethics.

I'm saying that I'm not interested in speaking to a racist and slavery apologist unless it's to confront them about racism and slavery.

And Nathan Bedford Forrest was a coward.

Leave me alone.

Well, actually you did say that. You might want to be careful about what you say if you can't back it up.

Why do you say Nathan Bedford Forrest was a coward. Where is your proof? I see. You want to rattle your trap and then tell others to leave you alone.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

So it is the origin as a ritual practice that makes it religious? Kung Fu has an origin as ritual practice. The Olympics were practiced to please the gods. Dancing was and is a religious practice in many parts of the world. Archery is a meditative/religious practice in Japan. Does that make all these exercises religious (and thereby unfit for teaching in public schools)?

I'm not familiar with physical education in the US. My guess is that you can't opt out. But it is irrelevant. If an exercise is religious, it should not be taught in public school. If it isn't, it is fit to be taught to all pupils.

No, it is the origin of a religious practice. You asked if it was religious and I showed you that it was. No you want to worm your way around it and somehow remove the definition of 'religious' from it. What a peach.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[Skwim]

Yoga is from a religion.

As if Christianity itself hasn't borrowed from other religions and such:

CHRISTMAS
What is today thought to be a celebration of the birth of Christ began as the pagan midwinter festival. One unbiblical tradition of this holiday is the use of greenery. Decorating with green plants in late December through the beginning of January was one of the ways Druids “honored and encouraged” the sun god at the time of the winter solstice. Families commonly cut down an evergreen tree to bring into their home, where they decorated and displayed it in a prominent place. In the Middle Ages, this ritual of paganism persisted and was eventually adapted and given a Christian label, as Roman Catholic missionaries worked to convince people to worship the Son of God rather than the sun god. In due course, German immigrants brought the practice of decorating evergreen trees to America, where it has flourished.

EASTER
Even Easter, which many assume was instituted to celebrate the resurrection of Jesus, is steeped in connections to paganism. The name “Easter” ultimately derives from the name of an ancient Chaldean goddess Astarte, who was known as the “Queen of Heaven.” Her Babylonian name was “Ishtar.” Since most languages pronounce “I” as ee, it’s not hard to see how eesh-tar and its linguistic variants could eventually become Easter

As the goddess of love and fertility, Ishtar’s symbols were—you guessed it—eggs and rabbits! Rabbits can bear several litters of young each year and thus were highly fertile animals familiar to these ancient people. Worshipping Ishtar during an annual spring festival was intended to ask her blessing of fertility on the crops being planted at that time of year. Decorating eggs as a means of worship seems harmless until you consider that the people also practiced ritual sex acts, often with temple prostitutes, to honor the goddess.

IMMORTAL SOULS
Some of the most basic things believed by most professing Christians derive from ancient paganism rather than from the Bible. The idea that people have immortal souls was first taught in ancient Egypt and Babylon. The Greeks likewise taught that at death the soul would separate from the physical body That idea was merged into Christianity from Greek philosophy. It did not come from inspired Scripture.
source​

I think it's worth pointing out the positive side of the story: a Christian group is arguing in favour of the Establishment Clause and is saying that school-imposed religion has no place in the classroom.

I think this is a refreshing change.

Only when it's their pig that appears to be getting stuck. And it isn't a religion, only a single aspect of one, like borrowing the act of kneeling and bowing one's head from Christianity. Or crossing oneself as Catholics do.


.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

Can either of you tell me what yoga actually is without quote-mining from dubious texts?

Since you are both apparently so knowledgeable about yoga, perhaps you'd like to share with the class how many types of yoga there are. Can you name any of them?

I answered the question. Why is it a 'dubious text'? Cause you say so? I see.

As to how many types of yoga there are....who cares? Not me. That it is a religious exercise was the point.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Well, actually you did say that. You might want to be careful about what you say if you can't back it up.

I'm not going to take responsibility for your failure to understand plain language.

Why do you say Nathan Bedford Forrest was a coward. Where is your proof?

It's cute that you think I should prove myself to you.

Edit: the KKK was based in cowardice. Small, fearful men were afraid of competing against African Americans as equals, so they used violence and trickery to keep them down. They couldn't hack it honourably, so they resorted to dishonourable tactics instead... under Forrest's leadership. Head coward in an organization founded on cowardice.

I see. You want to rattle your trap and then tell others to leave you alone.

That's right.

I'd rather not have you talk to me at all, but if you do, you'll hear what I think of you, the rag in your profile pic, and what you and it stand for. The choice is yours.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

Oh good god. Look at your source. It's a heavily biased right wing conservatives garbage that calls everything but it's own beliefs "cults". One of his other "brilliant" books is titled "Demon proofing Prayer". I prefer a more objective, reasoned look at these things than the ear-tickling of those who pander to fear.

Aside from that, if you seriously think think that the majority of westerners who practice yoga are actually seeking oneness with God, you have a great deal to learn. While many of these physical practices had their roots in spiritual life, what they become sanitized into in most of these yoga "studios", or what is taught in general classrooms, has little bearing whatsoever on beliefs. In fact, anyone of any religion can practice it, while not conflicting with their own.

So what on earth do you see as a conflict with your beliefs? Meditating on pleasant mental images? Yet your own bible tells you to do that, "Whatsoever things of lovely, of good report...... think on these things". Okay, that doesn't seem to be an issue there. Then what is it? Getting in touch with your physical body and feeling connected and grounded?

I would say if you don't have that, then you need to. Everyone needs that considering we have physical bodies and require them to live. Is accessing the greater potentials of the physical body scary to you? What frightens you exactly?

It is not a question of being in conflict with my faith. It is a question of it being a religious exercise. Which it is.

You can yoga all you like. Just don't bring it to school and force the children to do it.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[SalixIncendium]

I answered the question. Why is it a 'dubious text'? Cause you say so? I see.

No, because Bob Larson is a fundamentalist Christian televangelist. Hardly an impartial source.

Quite honestly, he knows about as much about yoga as you, which, as you've demonstrated in this thread, is next to nothing.

So, in summary, you didn't answer the question.

So try again.

As to how many types of yoga there are....who cares? Not me. That it is a religious exercise was the point.

Repeating the same incorrect statement doesn't making it any less incorrect.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

I'm not going to take responsibility for your failure to understand plain language.


It's cute that you think I should prove myself to you.

Edit: the KKK was based in cowardice. Small, fearful men were afraid of competing against African Americans as equals, so they used violence and trickery to keep them down. They couldn't hack it honourably, so they resorted to dishonourable tactics instead... under Forrest's leadership. Head coward in an organization founded on cowardice.


That's right.

I'd rather not have you talk to me at all, but if you do, you'll hear what I think of you, the rag in your profile pic, and what you and it stand for. The choice is yours.

You mean your failure to back it up.

Concening the KKK you're better off being silent. You don't know what your talking about. All you're going to do is spout off the smoke that was blown up your backside as you just did.

The Yankees didn't view Forrest as a coward. Oh they hated him for sure. But they never viewed him as a coward.

If your scared to talk, then don't. That simple. Concerning your insults, they don't bother me. You can't say anything I haven't heard hundreds of times from your ilk. So, go ahead...lean over that barrel and vomit.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

No, because Bob Larson is a fundamentalist Christian televangelist. Hardly an impartial source.

Quite honestly, he knows about as much about yoga as you, which, as you've demonstrated in this thread, is next to nothing.

So, in summary, you didn't answer the question.

So try again.



Repeating the same incorrect statement doesn't making it any less incorrect.

I don't care if he is impartial. I gave you proof that yoga is a religious exercise.

Quite honestly, as I already honestly said, all I need to know about yoga is that it is a religious exercise.

So, I have answered the question. You don't like it. Too bad.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[SalixIncendium]

I don't care if he is impartial. I gave you proof that yoga is a religious exercise.

Quite honestly, as I already honestly said, all I need to know about yoga is that it is a religious exercise.

So, I have answered the question. You don't like it. Too bad.

Good-Ole-Rebel

*smiles* All you gave us proof of is that you can parrot incorrect information.

But hey, if you’re content with your personal truths being rooted in ignorance, that’s fine by me.

Good talk.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You mean your failure to back it up.

Concening the KKK you're better off being silent. You don't know what your talking about. All you're going to do is spout off the smoke that was blown up your backside as you just did.

Are you speaking from experience? Would we find a hood in your closet if we looked?

The Yankees didn't view Forrest as a coward. Oh they hated him for sure. But they never viewed him as a coward.

Oh, yeah - slaughtering surrendering troops; I'm sure the Yankees saw that as courageous. A real hero there.

...but I was thinking more of after the war. Like I said: the head coward of an organization founded on cowardice.

Desperate times call for desperate measures, I guess: he was an incompetent businessman who never could figure out how to keep a business afloat without slave labour.

Like a lot of people who couldn't hack it on a level playing field, he and the people he led resorted to cowards' tactics to try to gain an advantage they wouldn't have had if they had behaved honourably.

If your scared to talk, then don't. That simple. Concerning your insults, they don't bother me. You can't say anything I haven't heard hundreds of times from your ilk.

I'm not trying to change your mind. There are just some things worth standing up to.

So, go ahead...lean over that barrel and vomit.

Cram a Confederate flag in that barrel first and I might just be open to the offer.

 

[74x12]

CHRISTMAS
What is today thought to be a celebration of the birth of Christ began as the pagan midwinter festival. One unbiblical tradition of this holiday is the use of greenery. Decorating with green plants in late December through the beginning of January was one of the ways Druids “honored and encouraged” the sun god at the time of the winter solstice. Families commonly cut down an evergreen tree to bring into their home, where they decorated and displayed it in a prominent place. In the Middle Ages, this ritual of paganism persisted and was eventually adapted and given a Christian label, as Roman Catholic missionaries worked to convince people to worship the Son of God rather than the sun god. In due course, German immigrants brought the practice of decorating evergreen trees to America, where it has flourished.

You don't think I don't know this? I don't even practice Christmas myself. Although I don't judge people who do. I think that most people do good at Christmas even if they don't the rest of the year. So I can't judge Christmas because it has good fruit to it. So since people like it and they do good on Christmas then I'm fine with it. But I currently don't participate myself.

EASTER
Even Easter, which many assume was instituted to celebrate the resurrection of Jesus, is steeped in connections to paganism. The name “Easter” ultimately derives from the name of an ancient Chaldean goddess Astarte, who was known as the “Queen of Heaven.” Her Babylonian name was “Ishtar.” Since most languages pronounce “I” as ee, it’s not hard to see how eesh-tar and its linguistic variants could eventually become Easter

As the goddess of love and fertility, Ishtar’s symbols were—you guessed it—eggs and rabbits! Rabbits can bear several litters of young each year and thus were highly fertile animals familiar to these ancient people. Worshipping Ishtar during an annual spring festival was intended to ask her blessing of fertility on the crops being planted at that time of year. Decorating eggs as a means of worship seems harmless until you consider that the people also practiced ritual sex acts, often with temple prostitutes, to honor the goddess.

I don't do Easter either. It likely comes from Ishtar which is similar sounding to Easter ... It's obviously a fertility rite. Eggs ... rabbits(known for breeding profusely) But again, I don't judge those who do.

IMMORTAL SOULS
Some of the most basic things believed by most professing Christians derive from ancient paganism rather than from the Bible. The idea that people have immortal souls was first taught in ancient Egypt and Babylon. The Greeks likewise taught that at death the soul would separate from the physical body That idea was merged into Christianity from Greek philosophy. It did not come from inspired Scripture.
source

It depends how you define immortality. But, I believe that the reason Egypt, Babylon and Greece all believed in immortal souls is that they got this idea from the same place the Hebrews did. That is because it's true. So these major ancient cultures remembered what was well known at the time. So, not everything Egyptians, Babylonians and Greeks believed was wrong. It had truth to it. It's just that God chose the Hebrews to receive the whole truth.

 

[Windwalker]

It is not a question of being in conflict with my faith. It is a question of it being a religious exercise. Which it is.

It. Is. Not. Why do you keep saying it is, when it most clearly is not? Are you stuck on the facts?

You can yoga all you like. Just don't bring it to school and force the children to do it.

Such fear. Such ignorance. I practice Tai Chi. Old people practice Tai Chi. Young people practice Tai Chi. What percentage of us are Taoists?

Most of Tai Chi, at least on mainland China has be deliberately stripped off any of it's Taoist roots. They teach it at the YMCA. That's a Christian organization, in case you don't know that. That's not a religious class they are teaching there. It's not "How to pray to Mecca" or some other thing.

And it's the same with Yoga. They teach it at YMCA's. Do they consider it to be Hinduism? Seriously?