1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Afterlife and Dealing With Death

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Leonides, Apr 7, 2018.

  1. Leonides

    Leonides New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2018
    Messages:
    8
    Ratings:
    +9
    Religion:
    Agnostic
    Just wanted to say to everyone here, thank you. I've posted a few questions this week on this website and everyone gave some very thoughtful answers! I had some great feedback on my last episode, and hope you guys enjoy this one. Recommend this video to those who are Atheist/Agnostic.

    Now of course, anyone can find gaps and put out an argument to such a discourse but the fact that I'm putting my voice out there for others to listen, puts me in a position to all types of criticism, so I'm aware. Nonetheless, would love to hear your feedback. Thank you again. The community here is great!

     
    #1 Leonides, Apr 7, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2018
    • Like Like x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  2. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    8,818
    Ratings:
    +4,494
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    Sorry, but overuse of the word "right" is very distracting.....and so is the bad language. Can't people today speak without a potty mouth? Have we lost the art of simple clean communication? I come from the era when that kind of language meant that you were a deadbeat from the gutter. We are not allowed to write those words on this site so how come you are allowed to say them out loud? o_O

    But getting back to the subject.....why do you think death is as foreign to humankind today as it was when they first began? Why haven't we built up a resistance to death, since it has always happened? Generally speaking, animals do not respond to death like we do. I have lost enough pets to know that they just carry on, some of them as if nothing had happened.

    If we are a creation that was never meant to die, then collectively that would explain why grieving is universal....sometimes people grieve for decades. It would also explain why we as a species are the only ones who perform elaborate burial rituals.....and remember anniversary dates when our loved ones passed away. There is special grief on those days when we recall the pain of loss more accutely.

    Some pray for the dead because they think that they might go to a bad place. If they believe that humans have an immortal soul then they have to have somewhere for those souls to go. Often the places are invented to cater to a belief system. I personally have no belief in any conscious part of man that survives death.

    People find their comfort in many ways when they lose a loved one. Who are any of us to take it off them? All we can do is share our beliefs in the hope that someone will be comforted by what we share.

    Those who don't want to believe in God or any kind of afterlife...don't have to.

    But if this life is all there is...its a pretty pathetic excuse for an intelligent existence IMO. I for one, look forward to a much better life that the God of the Bible has promised for the future. One where death will be eliminated along with all causes of pain and suffering. That is my comfort. That is my hope.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Mock Turtle

    Mock Turtle Life sucks!
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2018
    Messages:
    2,661
    Ratings:
    +1,026
    Religion:
    The road taken but not taken
    Which is why I suspect you have the views you have. Your life perhaps is not so when many others just do find their lives as fulfilling as they require. Why not have a look at some autobiographies of some of the best minds to see how they solved the question of a meaningful life - they usually achieved something rather than just moaning and/or criticising others or life in general. :rolleyes: Many might even have been religious.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Winner Winner x 1
  4. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    8,818
    Ratings:
    +4,494
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    Since we are the only species on the planet who can contemplate our own death, how does it make most people feel when they come to the end of their lives with many things still on their bucket list, and no way to do anything about it because their body will no longer let them due to age or disease? Their mind is still active..... is that a fulfilled life? What future can atheism offer them?

    What if you had a bucket list but were too poor to even get any of them ticked off? Would you find that life fulfilling? What can atheism offer these people ? Too bad for them eh?

    If you were born with a mental or physical disability and had no way to fulfill any of your desires in life....would you call that fulfilling? How does atheism make things right for them? Does it give them another shot at a better life?

    To me its the difference between dying happy with some hope, and dying disappointed with none. I know what I would choose.

    The autobiographies of those who actually had the circumstances or the finances or the intellect to make something of themselves, or who have achieved something for the benefit of mankind, are what percentage of the world's population, do you think?
    What of those who have the ability and circumstances to make a difference to so many people, but who choose not to? We have a saying in Australia for an attitude like that..."I'm all right Jack".....meaning that as long as my life is OK, I couldn't give a toss about anyone else's.

    Being realistic is not moaning or criticizing....it is demonstrating that the human heart is programmed for better things than present circumstances for most people will allow. Not everyone is born into a free country....not all children get the best parents or the best start in life....not all enjoy equal opportunity for education....there is so much more working against us than there is for us in this world. Are you satisfied with that? If you are then you what does that say about you?

    We as human beings have a collective expectation that life should not be this hard....it should not be this sad ....and it should not mean that some live the good life whilst most others do not.

    Atheism robs people of any hope for a better future...especially if they have messed up the past. God doesn't do that.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Mock Turtle

    Mock Turtle Life sucks!
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2018
    Messages:
    2,661
    Ratings:
    +1,026
    Religion:
    The road taken but not taken
    What on earth has that got to do with living? It's hardly sensible to moan about the things one hasn't done when, being alive still, it is still within one's possibility to do them - apart from all the circumstances going against this. We can choose to do what we want - within reason.

    Of course there are many who might never fulfil any of their desires but I doubt having a religious belief is any more consoling - they still can't do the things they might want to do. Atheism or not, it hardly affects what they actually do in life. It is often the beliefs (erroneous ones too) that stop us doing things that would make our lives better. I have never for example regretted any of the physical activities I have done - and many of these were done - because the things I did gain were things like courage, perseverance, resilience, and of course a huge amount of enjoyment. But it took a lot of work to achieve these things - none came without hard work, pain, and sometimes disappointment. The rewards were often long-lasting. These kinds of things are not just mere things to tick off on a bucket list.

    Oh please - we gain inspiration from many of these people, and often they weren't born into circumstances that enabled it all to happen.

    You are the one not being realistic - and no doubt coming from your religious beliefs. You have had more than enough rational and reasonable others here debating with you - are they also so delusional?

    You are just generalising to the experiences of the many when I doubt they do have this. Have an enjoyable childhood? - free of religion? - since that to many of us is where such attitudes stem from. Life is what we make of it, and with what we are endowed. We either make the most of life or don't - our choice alone.

    Rubbish. Atheism doesn't do anything. All it means is that the atheists are free to choose to live a life as they see fit without expecting some divine presence to be constantly tapping them on the shoulder and making them feel guilty. They can lead just as moral and as good a life as any of the religious (probably better) - and the same goes for any agnostics (like me).
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Mock Turtle

    Mock Turtle Life sucks!
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2018
    Messages:
    2,661
    Ratings:
    +1,026
    Religion:
    The road taken but not taken
    I think, like the whole question of any God or creator/creative force, we should just try to ignore death. We obviously know it goes on - from an early age too often - and we would rather it didn't happen, but we have to accept that this is just a part of being human, and an inevitable result of being born. I have felt grief - actually being before my mother died, when her personality just seemed to be ebbing away due to dementia - but I survived, as do most of us. It just makes more sense to live life expecting to live another day rather than doing anything else. And, as mentioned in the piece, living otherwise often brings along more problems for others, if the expectation is that life is somehow better in some kind of afterlife. The whole concept fails my reasonableness test. :rolleyes:
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  7. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    8,818
    Ratings:
    +4,494
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    Living ends with dying so it has a lot to do with it.

    Did you just disagree with yourself? More people have no choices....not everyone can fulfill their dreams. Its expensive and you have to have a measure of health....something that is rapidly disappearing as we as a species eat ourselves to death in some sectors, whilst others are starving.

    Having an opportunity for a second chance at life, especially if your first shot was a disaster for some reason or another, is not appealing to you? Being reunited with lost loved ones is not appealing either? This the hope the Bible offers...not in heaven, but right here on earth. How would that not be consoling?

    What "beliefs" would prevent us from making our lives better? Name me some.

    Its all about you, is it? I was actually talking about other people.....some have to work hard, experience pain and disappointment and there is never any reward. I am not referring to any bucket list here...just a very unfair life because of the circumstances of our birth....nothing we could plan for or avoid.

    And what percentage of the population ever make it to that end result? It is minuscule.
    We aren't talking about the majority of people, are we? You are talking about a small minority, and yes they inspire us, but seldom does it help us in any real way.

    Was that addressing the quote? I believe that I am being realistic....I don't believe that you are however. When did I suggest that anyone was delusional? Who said that the people I have interacted with were rational and reasonable...? :p

    Are you really sure about those people, since you don't appear to want to acknowledge or care about them? Generally speaking, the majority of people living at this moment are struggling with health issues, family problems, financial worries or political conflicts. You want to tell them its all going to be all right? Who is going to make it all right?...the same people who made it all wrong?

    Some people have no choice and that was the point. They would love to make something of their lives but never get the opportunity. Having lived in abject poverty all their lives, they can at least face death with the hope of a better future life because its all they have left. Would you take it away from them? If so, why?

    Ah, now we are getting to the nitty gritty.....couldn't possibly be happy with a divine presence making you feel guilty. :rolleyes:

    I have no doubt, but why do atheists want to rob believers of their hope? Does misery love company? If atheists have no hope, does it make them feel better to take hope away from those who have nothing else?

    Please explain....? :shrug:
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    8,818
    Ratings:
    +4,494
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    Its easy to ignore death when you are young and fit. You never think its going to happen to you, but when it does and you are facing your own end of life years, it takes on a whole new level of importance. Most of us can't figure out how it happened so quickly. o_O We are still 30 in our minds but the face in the mirror is ancient! It feels so wrong!

    Of course it does. And living the best life we can is always the best idea.....and yet how many people do we see today....young and with the rest of their lives to live....ruined by drugs and an immoral lifestyle.

    For many, if there was no expectation of a better life to come, this one would have been thrown away as so not worth the effort.

    Faith isn't about reasonableness.....it is about hope. Who can live without hope?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

    Joined:
    May 1, 2017
    Messages:
    2,250
    Ratings:
    +864
    Religion:
    Spiritual Naturalist
    Anyways, life seems void and silent on the matter of an afterlife. No voice in the sky is talking. And i dont sense that any ever knocked at the door of my heart.

    However the senses can deceive, and reality is intelligible. Little things that people write off easily suggest that there is something beyond the universe.

    This is a lousy creation, but my hands and feet serve a purpose and still suggest that there is intention in my makings. You can blow that off because of dead silence, and logic games but evolution doesnt answer any mysterious question of existence. It just dismisses things based on assumptions conceived of as fact.

    Even evolution being true, its not answering any serious question of existence. Natural selection and random mutation are word games at best and glaze over obvious facts of existence.

    So an afterlife is still possible.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  10. Mock Turtle

    Mock Turtle Life sucks!
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2018
    Messages:
    2,661
    Ratings:
    +1,026
    Religion:
    The road taken but not taken
    You can ignore it at my age too, I can assure you - those of us without any religious beliefs - since I just don't think about it much at all, and it hardly bothers me what might happen when I die. I couldn't really care less. It's just the missing of life that bothers me since I am sure I have still much to experience and learn. Which is why I suggest others live their lives as if it is the only one.

    So what is new - some are more attuned to existence than others - as in not wasting their lives in pursuit of temporary forms of happiness such as those mentioned. Hope springs from a self-belief that one can make the next day better than the last - for oneself and others - no religion required.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  11. Mock Turtle

    Mock Turtle Life sucks!
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2018
    Messages:
    2,661
    Ratings:
    +1,026
    Religion:
    The road taken but not taken
    Not so. I don't know where you get your information from but we are better off overall than ever before. I hardly think you living in Australia have much to complain about since it rates quite high on the overall contentedness rating from what I know - and I have a brother living there.

    Whether it appeals or not is besides the point - it just seems so improbable to me. That is why I just don't believe in such things. No doubt it would be nice to have some other existence - possibly - but I can live with what I believe.

    A religious one that dictated one's life over reason and common sense? How about some strict Muslim practices to start off with - and just too many to list. You apparently are against homosexuality, for example. Is that making their lives any better?

    I think you are just describing life - a bit messy but fun to experience and better than the alternative - for most of us at least. :D

    Well, I would rather we concentrated on making their life here and now as being better - but which takes work - the beliefs you think might help them just don't.

    Any past actions might do so but I invariably reconcile myself as to these and hope to do better. Any divine presence bothers me not a jot.

    The misery we see comes from delusional beliefs in religion. Why deny us our voice when it seems to be the duty of every JW to proselytise their beliefs as much as they see fit. Hypocrisy some?
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  12. corynski

    corynski Reality First!
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2007
    Messages:
    352
    Ratings:
    +147
    Religion:
    none ........
    Hmmm.... You seem contradicted mentally. You don't understand that atheism is all about reality, as it represents an attempt to discover reality, which to many of us has a value far greater than all the make-believe religions can never have. 'Pie-in-the-sky' we used to call religion. And I speak from 80 years of age and 80 years of experience.... I'm atheist and have no qualms about dying..... and all of my searching has not revealed any 'god', whatever that term could possibly mean. Could I accept any religion at random and 'feel good' about it, accepting all the illusions and hopes that it provides to those who 'know' their religion and beliefs are the 'right' ones? You seem to have the ability to deny that there is a single 'reality' surrounding us all, and that your beliefs, whatever you think of as reality, suggest that 'Atheism robs people of any hope for a better future....'. Quite naive I would suggest. Of the thousands of gods and goddesses and belief systems men have created, which one have you chosen that supports such arrogance?
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  13. George-ananda

    George-ananda Advaita Vedanta and Spiritualist and Pantheist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2012
    Messages:
    13,654
    Ratings:
    +4,721
    Religion:
    Advaita and Spiritualist and Pantheist
    Ah thanks. I was considering listening to it until I read that.

    I know his type, and just can't stomach it now.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. corynski

    corynski Reality First!
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2007
    Messages:
    352
    Ratings:
    +147
    Religion:
    none ........
    Deeje ......... May I suggest again that you are presenting a false image of atheism. Atheism means only that I personally do not perceive anything supernatural, end of story. That accords with 'reality' to me, as I see so much contradiction and fighting among those who do experience and espouse different gods and religions, none of which have any evidence to support them.
    But you're talking about avoiding reality by believing whatever religious fiction exists, which is not my preference, and about blaming atheists in various ways.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  15. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2009
    Messages:
    21,133
    Ratings:
    +7,686
    Religion:
    Zen Buddhism
    I'd rather live being realistic about facts pertaining to life than live in a fantastical and delusional realm of the mind.

    Atheism is a fulfillment by which a person is brought back down to terms of the reality and state of things. Nothing is "robbed" whatsoever because there was never anything to steal in the first place.

    When my heart attack was ongoing, I was glad there was no ridiculous belief to exasperate the situation. I was ok with dying if that was going to be the case.

    After all, I got here through the natural universe for better or worse, I have no issues with the universe taking me either.

    No concerns about the future wither for better or for worse, because it's clear things already work. I'm not robbed, I was "given" something that I actually had all along.
    ;0)
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  16. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    8,818
    Ratings:
    +4,494
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    Why do you suppose that death feels so wrong, if it is inevitable? Unless we suffer with dementia, our minds do not age. We can go on learning and building on past experience, indefinitely, but that is cut off by the breakdown of the body through aging. The Bible explains why that is the case....death was never supposed to happen. I had to get old to appreciate that.

    How does atheism answer that question?

    No one said religion was required. "Belief" is not religion. "Faith" is not religion. "God" is not religion. I can have all three without religion. I am the same "religion" as Adam....what would you call that?
     
  17. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    23,815
    Ratings:
    +7,817
    I see afterlife and anything similar unrealistic. I dont know how someone can believe that on fact. A lot of people are scared of death. My body is afraid, my mind blanks out when I think of "not existing". Im scared of how I will die not death itself. We can prepare for the former but not the latter.

    Death is the end. What makes life worth living is that we will die. To me, life isnt worth living if I know I will live forever. It really takes the point in living in gratitude of this flesh in place of the spirit. Its very unhealthy.

    Related to the video (I agree with @Deeje about the profanity. Its disctracting), the knowledge we will die and thats it is actually more realistic and does, contrary to whats said, a good motivator to live this life. I had brain surgery. I didnt think of god or anything like that and if I didnt have it I would be brain dead (brain deform in time) and shortened life. This "being at peace" that I will die is more so than I have thinking of an afterlife. It was the figleaf of accepting we are not in control of our mortality.

    Its uncomfortable. Thats why many religions exist because of it. Whats groovy about The Buddha Dharma is death is the final state of being. While rebirth is somewhat hard to understand, we continue to live until we die. The idea is we need to understand our mortality in order to not attach to ourselves to the afterlife--in Buddha's day Hinduism/reincarnation-mental attachments, spiritual, and physical for wisdom and acceptance. Once that happens we are enlightened. Once enlighted no rebirth: nivanna.

    The video is kind of harsh but like most reflecting on death helps understand it. Its best to understand mortality than finding ways to be distracted by living forever.

    Truth hurts.

    Edit.
     
    #17 Unveiled Artist, Apr 7, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2018
  18. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    23,815
    Ratings:
    +7,817
    I just want to say that first part is so not true. Im young compared to half the people on RF and the nieghbors I live in this complex are three times my age of 40s. Some actually have healthy lives when I tell them the affects of my chronic illnesses. Look up progeria.
    About Progeria Its a rare condition that ages children at toddler age and many dont live pass their teens because of premature aging.

    Religion saves "old peoples" lives. Theyd die without it. Its good to step aside an be a skeptic. It lightens the religious-ego and in your comment hopefully put yourselves in a young ones shoes: not your experience of childhood (decade differences) but theirs.

    Age comments nardles me nerves. Ive seen aged people change their thinking after varied cultural experiences. Its not age. Moreso personality, upbringing, and how they view life and others.

    Edited.
     
  19. Curious George

    Curious George Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2012
    Messages:
    12,034
    Ratings:
    +2,338
    The message was really powerful. You used one phrase "In a way, death is almost intolerable." This sounds like the meat of your discussion. This as a title or a lead in the beginning would have been nice. You used the term "undesirable" early on in the video. But intolerable and undesirable are different. The distinction is seen in the phrases "I don't like that" vs. "I can't accept that." Your discussion revolves around the latter. Consequently, I think you should have lead with the latter. I enjoyed listening.

    The use of "right," is a verbal pause. It is okay to have a non verbal pause and slow down. While you should not eliminate all of the verbal pauses, as some were well placed. Some were excessive and should be replaced with non verbal pauses. You have the advantage of recording yourself, so you can do another take.

    Consider also giving a better road map in the intro. The idea here is that you explain to the audience more clearly where you are going. Your road map was "we are going to be talking about death, the after life--all that good Sh*t." I am not saying change this. It sets tone, designates audience and opens the subject. But as you move through the initial line of thought towards your thesis either in you thesis make points that outline a road map or use another meta-commentary to tell your audience what specific points relating to your thesis you are going to address. In this case the points you addressed were how some theists deal with death (afterlife), how some agnostics deal with death (focus on the grieving process), and why you believe the latter is better.

    There is also this wonderfully real moment where you contemplate an unimaginable horror of your daughter passing prior to you. This addresses a very common fear and emotional connects. This too should have been part of the introduction. You can always call back to it, by referencing the earlier point, if you need it to make a later point. But this very human sentiment should either be used early or not at all.

    Out of courtesy you should probably put the video in a spoiler with a language warning when you post it anywhere that is not your channel or a website which you control.

    I know this may seem like a lot, but these are relatively small things. Your style is genuine and charismatic, your thoughts are intelligent, but the organization still needs a little work.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  20. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    8,818
    Ratings:
    +4,494
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    Wow, another person conned by statistics. People are not statistics. They are the ones experiencing the nightmare of "living" in circumstances beyond their control. Even in seemingly stable nations like Australia, the national debt is climbing and economically people here struggle all the same. The cost of living is ridiculous! Like other developed nations, we have more than our share of homeless people. Who gives them hope for better things in the future? The politicians? Most are depressed and unable to extract themselves from the misery. We at least can offer them hope for a better future that is not dependent on man.
    Hope can sometimes pull people out of the mire and give them a reason to step up. We have seen it so many times.

    Many people are already depressed with the inequality and injustice of this life, so to take hope of a better future away, is just cruel. You might be able to live without hope, but why expect others to do that as if yours is the only right way to think? Who said?

    If you consider that in all species, sex is for reproduction, animals who unconsciously engage in same sex activity are considered abnormal. But they have no moral sense to override their urges. Humans are different. Homosexuality means engaging in abnormal sexual activity that has nothing to do with reproduction. (It's primary function) In fact homosexual activity with multiple partners causes loathsome communicable diseases. We have the ability to evaluate our sexual urges and to judge them accordingly. Our moral sense is unique to us, and yet humans have proven that immorality can be indoctrinated into people's thinking like anything else. Promote it long enough and make it appear to be "normal" and you can influence humans to accept even what was once morally repugnant to them.

    We have homosexuals in our ranks, but they choose to remain celibate. I can assure you that they do not feel deprived because they love and respect their God more than they obey their base urges. They keep busy in God's service and look forward to a better future. Their conscience is clear.
    They have nothing to be ashamed of.

    But it isn't "most of us". If you consider numbers, then think about the overpopulated nations who outnumber us in the west. Asia, Africa and parts of South America, abject poverty is all they have ever known. You think life is "messy but fun" for them? You seem to have a very limited and unrealistic view of the world.

    So why do you think that their lives collectively, never improve? How many people are there like you?....are you actively making a difference for them? If so, in what ways?

    I can say that JW's change lives in a very positive way. Rather than hand to mouth charity, we concentrate on individuals to give them a hand up, not just a hand out. One person at a time, we encourage them to see a better future and how to change the life they are already living. It is most satisfying. It is all based on applying Bible principles. They extract themselves from their hopelessness and see a brighter future. Do you find that threatening in some way?

    Rubbish. The misery comes from having no one who cares about them. Good humanitarians are thin on the ground and overwhelmed by the magnitude of the problem. What they can accomplish is negligible compared with how many people need immediate and ongoing help. Add to that, political mismanagement, commercial greed, natural disasters and wars, and you quickly see that man cannot rule himself adequately. Selfishness and a lust for wealth and power dominate worldly thinking, and national and religious divisions make enemies where there does not need to be any. All of man's troubles are brought on by himself....

    What does it matter to you what others believe? You have nothing to offer them once you have destroyed their faith. Are you the guy who steals candy from a baby just to watch it cry? o_O I don't get it.
     
    • Like Like x 1
Loading...