A Question for Atheists..

[Loaai]

What a vain little god that god must be! Why would an omnipotent being give a stale cookie whether anyone worships [him] or not?
So your god has no idea why people act as they do, how the forces of genetics and environment result in human conduct? Isn't [he] said to be omniscient? If so, that can't be correct.

Because if it were, [his] remedy for people who are deficient or broken would not be to torture them, but to heal them.

I deplore the mentality you attribute to [him] as primitive, ignorant and brutish. You're more than welcome to [him] as long as you keep [him] to yourself.

You are constantly deceiting and misunderstanding God.

Your main question is: "How is he the most merciful if good mannered atheists would go to hell?"

Just imagine 2 workers in a company, they are both diligent, industrious and well mannered, but one of them keeps denying the fact that the owner of that company is actually the owner because he never saw him, while the other admits normally. Don't you think this guy is going to be hated by the owner? Like he's literally saying that the company's owner doesn't even exsist!

Messengers were sent to him by the owner to warn him about what he's doing and even tho he knows if he doesn't confess and truly admits his exsistence, he is going to get punished, despite that he is still denying the fact because he never saw him! Ironically this guy also believes in air but can't see it but it was proven that it exsists by examining and learning about the surroundings and the environment and thats exactly what science does.

That guy also doesn't have any basis for what actual good manners should be, he's just picking according to his opinion, feelings, thoughts, logic and maybe he thinks there is no problem with stealing some bucks everyday from the cashier because the owner isn't going to die from hunger if he does that, is he?

Actually this guy is just picking what to believe is to be correct and what to deny according to his personal feelings and his personal logic, without considering the perspectives of others and literal miracles very arrogantly, then crying furiously when he gets fired or punished for how delusional and arrogant he is.

God is the most merciful and the most just for those who deserve and believe but for those who denyed his exsistence, denyed heaven, hell and afterlife even when a messenger came and warned them with literal miracles that exsist till now, then they shouldn't be angry when the get punished! Should they?

You're like saying that killers, stealers and people who deny the exsistence of an owner (as in the example) should be healed by God/Owner with love and tenderness and he should respect them (even tho they denyed his exsistence and disrespected him, like how is this even logical?) instead of punishing them cruely not because he is cruel, but to make it a clear lesson for all, so that nobody exploits a flawed, unperfect and broken system (if no punishments were present.)

In short: Atheists will never be 100% sure about their beliefs because they are contradicted and not all of them are scientific, like science has never proved what good manners are and whether God exists, In fact it has contributed to inviting more people to be religious and to believe in God which would be a much more understandable life that actually has a purpose and not just derived from random scientific coincidences. Just ask yourself: Why do you think we are here for? And do you really think that after you die you would just see a black screen and that's it?

My God puts a base for good manners and a logical purpose for why we exsist in the first place, he tells us to be kind, donate to charity, be sociable, positive, diligent and seek education, science and we worship him because we WANT to ,and we believe in his mercy and justice before anything else.

What's the problem with such God or religion to be widespread? It's always going to be widespread whether you like it or not and I would never keep such wonderful God only for myself because if you still deny there are millions more who are converting to believe after confessing to be delusionals.

 

[blü 2]

You are constantly deceiting and misunderstanding God.

Your main question is: "How is he the most merciful if good mannered atheists would go to hell?"

That's only a tiny corner of the question.

The much larger question is, how can a god whose CV says [he]'s omniscient, omnipotent and merciful, do what you want him to do, endlessly torture people who fall into one or other category of being objectionable ─ when with [his] perfect knowledge [he] understands exactly what combination of their genetics and their environment led them to act as they did, and with [his] all-wisdom [he] can heal them without effort.

You seem particularly prickly about letting people into heaven who haven't toed the line like you have.

My own view is that being moral out of fear is scarcely being moral at all, merely trying to buy your way through. Instead we should each take responsibility for our own honesty and acts of decency, regardless of heaven or hell.

But this isn't going anywhere. We've covered this ground before.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Are you being serious or sarcastic? What you wrote is so ridiculous and counter to reality I can't tell.

If he is being serious, and it seems he is, there might only be about 16 million or so perhaps sharing such a ludicrous belief - fortunately.

 

[Loaai]

That's only a tiny corner of the question.

The much larger question is, how can a god whose CV says [he]'s omniscient, omnipotent and merciful, do what you want him to do, endlessly torture people who fall into one or other category of being objectionable ─ when with [his] perfect knowledge [he] understands exactly what combination of their genetics and their environment led them to act as they did, and with [his] all-wisdom [he] can heal them without effort.

You seem particularly prickly about letting people into heaven who haven't toed the line like you have.

My own view is that being moral out of fear is scarcely being moral at all, merely trying to buy your way through. Instead we should each take responsibility for our own honesty and acts of decency, regardless of heaven or hell.

But this isn't going anywhere. We've covered this ground before.

"Instead we should each take responsibility for our own honesty and acts of decency, regardless of heaven or hell."

Honesty and decency are not defined in atheism, as I said in the first example I could find an atheist that thinks killing people, stealing or dealing in drugs is ok, heaven and hell were created to define honesty and to define what's right and what's not.

Heaven was created to reward those who made actual good deeds (according to moral rules of that religion) and believed in God, and Hell was created as a warning not as a sign of cruelness, just like we have cruel prisons not because we are barbaric and cruel, but to clearly warn everybody from doing any act against our law.

You are only talking about hell without mentioning heavens, basically without hell and heaven there is no basis for right and wrong, just imagine a law without punishments, how can this law be taken seriously without punishments? And I'm also aware that there would be people who respect the law not because of its punishments but to just be kind and nice, but are all human beings kind and nice? If they are we would have never built prisons in the first place.

People who believe in God don't do out of fear of hell, but to seek the the reward: heavens! And I find no problem with that. Just as I find no problem with a man who seeks to become a doctor not only to be a scientist but also to seek the reward: money.

 

[Loaai]

That's only a tiny corner of the question.

The much larger question is, how can a god whose CV says [he]'s omniscient, omnipotent and merciful, do what you want him to do, endlessly torture people who fall into one or other category of being objectionable ─ when with [his] perfect knowledge [he] understands exactly what combination of their genetics and their environment led them to act as they did, and with [his] all-wisdom [he] can heal them without effort.

You seem particularly prickly about letting people into heaven who haven't toed the line like you have.

My own view is that being moral out of fear is scarcely being moral at all, merely trying to buy your way through. Instead we should each take responsibility for our own honesty and acts of decency, regardless of heaven or hell.

But this isn't going anywhere. We've covered this ground before.

Of course you're free to do or believe what you want, but if I don't mend misconceptions about believing in God, and especially those related to Islam, then who's going to? I'm just here to convey the right message to whoever thinks this world actually has a purpose and we are not here just because of nature and coincidences. (with all due respect to science)

I'm just going to give one last example and I hope it sums it all up: Imagine a US citizen who doesn't confess or agree to the US law because he thinks they are not right, he just creates his own moral rules, and within these rules he allows himself to deal in drugs. But when this guy is caught doing this act in the US, the judge will refer to the US law not the guy's moral rules.

Now what about someone who never killed a bug in his life, extremely kind, spends thousands on charity, but denies the existence of a God, why would he go to hell? Well if you think about it, Yes he's kind, nice and such a wonderful being but why is he like that? it's either to satisfy the community he lives in or to satisfy himself as a person, he's not doing it for any afterlife stuff whatsoever, so the question itself doesn't make sense because you are assuming that this guy was doing good deeds for God, but no.. he was doing it for the secular life so that people remember him, so when he stands beside a believer who also did good deeds but to actually satisfy God, then how would putting both in heaven be just?
Yes they are doing the same thing, but Why is the difference.

 

[blü 2]

"Instead we should each take responsibility for our own honesty and acts of decency, regardless of heaven or hell."

Honesty and decency are not defined in atheism, as I said in the first example I could find an atheist that thinks killing people, stealing or dealing in drugs is ok, heaven and hell were created to define honesty and to define what's right and what's not.

So you think belief in gods is necessary for human morality?
'
That's absurd, given the course of our conversation, where you the believer are cheering for eternal torture and I, the unbeliever am cheering for healing and wholeness.

That you the believer are for exclusion and rigidity, and I the unbeliever am for inclusion and decency.

That you the believer think morality can only be the product of terror, and I the unbeliever think each of us should find and uphold our morality from within us.

As I've said before, you and I live in different moral universes. I see nothing to gain by continuing this conversation.

 

[Loaai]

So you think belief in gods is necessary for human morality?
'
That's absurd, given the course of our conversation, where you the believer are cheering for eternal torture and I, the unbeliever am cheering for healing and wholeness.

That you the believer are for exclusion and rigidity, and I the unbeliever am for inclusion and decency.

That you the believer think morality can only be the product of terror, and I the unbeliever think each of us should find and uphold our morality from within us.

As I've said before, you and I live in different moral universes. I see nothing to gain by continuing this conversation.

You always only consider your opinion to e!

First of all, I didn't say you have to believe in god in order to be moral, I said the believer is moral for his afterlife, but the non believer is moral (in his point of view) so that people remember him.

You are never considering all prespectives, only yours. You are only mentioning hell without mentioning heaven, you are only mentioning the negatives (which are negatives only in your prespectice) without mentioning the positives.

You look to be the one who lives in the different universe. Don't you understand that some people out there would do absolute terrible stuff if there were no punishments? I'm not the one who created the US law, but I believe they have very harsh punishments for drug dealers.

If hitler was to be alive right now wouldn't the world punish him savagely? If there is no hell there would never be justice in the afterlife for those who got burnt by him! Do you think they would forgive him if they were to be judges? Please, Just stop being arrogant and consider all prespectives!

 

[blü 2]

First of all, I didn't say you have to believe in god in order to be moral, I said the believer is moral for his afterlife, but the non believer is moral (in his point of view) so that people remember him.

When I'm dead, I won't even be indifferent to how I'm remembered. Nor can I remember even one occasion when I made a moral choice on the basis that either I'd be remembered for it or it would add to my moral fame, if any. Ordinary decency is the standard, along with respect and inclusion ─ though you've said you don't like inclusion, I notice.

You are only mentioning hell without mentioning heaven, you are only mentioning the negatives (which are negatives only in your prespectice) without mentioning the positives.

Our topic is your vision of hell, where God, who could cure people of their faults with one snap of those omnipotent fingers, doesn't cure them but sends them off to be tormented. In the old days that was barbarism, These days it's depravity,

Don't you understand that some people out there would do absolute terrible stuff if there were no punishments? I'm not the one who created the US law, but I believe they have very harsh punishments for drug dealers.

And it doesn't work as a deterrent. And if you're right about God's plan, that doesn't work either. They both fail for the same reason, failing to understand human nature and to work with it instead of trying to stomp on it.

If hitler was to be alive right now wouldn't the world punish him savagely?

At the Nuremberg trials, the Nazi leaders were simply sentenced to death by hanging. They were not burnt alive, or whipped every day for ten years, or whatever. Many, including Speer, were given long or life sentences. Had Hitler been there, he would have been sentenced to death by hanging, nothing more or less.

If there is no hell there would never be justice in the afterlife for those who got burnt by him!

On my hypothesis, God has healed them too; they're no longer malicious, vindictive, delighted at the idea of torturing their enemies for eternity. They understand that Hitler was a badly damaged soul, who's now fixed.

But you're with the torturers, the vindictive, the barbarians. And I'm not.

 

[Loaai]

When I'm dead, I won't even be indifferent to how I'm remembered. Nor can I remember even one occasion when I made a moral choice on the basis that either I'd be remembered for it or it would add to my moral fame, if any. Ordinary decency is the standard, along with respect and inclusion ─ though you've said you don't like inclusion, I notice.
Our topic is your vision of hell, where God, who could cure people of their faults with one snap of those omnipotent fingers, doesn't cure them but sends them off to be tormented. In the old days that was barbarism, These days it's depravity,
And it doesn't work as a deterrent. And if you're right about God's plan, that doesn't work either. They both fail for the same reason, failing to understand human nature and to work with it instead of trying to stomp on it.
At the Nuremberg trials, the Nazi leaders were simply sentenced to death by hanging. They were not burnt alive, or whipped every day for ten years, or whatever. Many, including Speer, were given long or life sentences. Had Hitler been there, he would have been sentenced to death by hanging, nothing more or less.
On my hypothesis, God has healed them too; they're no longer malicious, vindictive, delighted at the idea of torturing their enemies for eternity. They understand that Hitler was a badly damaged soul, who's now fixed.

But you're with the torturers, the vindictive, the barbarians. And I'm not.

So now Im barbaric if I want hell for those who burnt people to death while you "the angel" want them to be healed, lets consider your opinion.. heal those who burnt people to death and did terrible catastrophes.. you consider this to be justice?

"They understand that Hitler was a badly damaged soul, who's now fixed."

You cant speak on behalf of people who got burnt to death, you are delusional of something called justice, they would have never forgiven him. Thats just your drastic opinion.

Again, if there is no hell and heaven there would never be right or wrong, a man who burnt people to death will be just as equal wih a man who did good deeds, believed and loved God. A system like this is absolutely flawed, unjust and illogical.

 

[Loaai]

When I'm dead, I won't even be indifferent to how I'm remembered. Nor can I remember even one occasion when I made a moral choice on the basis that either I'd be remembered for it or it would add to my moral fame, if any. Ordinary decency is the standard, along with respect and inclusion ─ though you've said you don't like inclusion, I notice.
Our topic is your vision of hell, where God, who could cure people of their faults with one snap of those omnipotent fingers, doesn't cure them but sends them off to be tormented. In the old days that was barbarism, These days it's depravity,
And it doesn't work as a deterrent. And if you're right about God's plan, that doesn't work either. They both fail for the same reason, failing to understand human nature and to work with it instead of trying to stomp on it.
At the Nuremberg trials, the Nazi leaders were simply sentenced to death by hanging. They were not burnt alive, or whipped every day for ten years, or whatever. Many, including Speer, were given long or life sentences. Had Hitler been there, he would have been sentenced to death by hanging, nothing more or less.
On my hypothesis, God has healed them too; they're no longer malicious, vindictive, delighted at the idea of torturing their enemies for eternity. They understand that Hitler was a badly damaged soul, who's now fixed.

But you're with the torturers, the vindictive, the barbarians. And I'm not.

You want me to believe that God should heal hitler with those who got burnt by him instead of torturing him, uhh what an amazing definition of justice.

If I'm barbaric and cruel then you are arrogant, illogical, and I wouldn't be surprised if you fail 10 times in a law school.

 

[Curious George]

Not on post #20 on either my phone or tablet

Turn phone 90°

 

[Subduction Zone]

So now Im barbaric if I want hell for those who burnt people to death while you "the angel" want them to be healed, lets consider your opinion.. heal those who burnt people to death and did terrible catastrophes.. you consider this to be justice?

"They understand that Hitler was a badly damaged soul, who's now fixed."

You cant speak on behalf of people who got burnt to death, you are delusional of something called justice, they would have never forgiven him. Thats just your drastic opinion.

Again, if there is no hell and heaven there would never be right or wrong, a man who burnt people to death will be just as equal wih a man who did good deeds, believed and loved God. A system like this is absolutely flawed, unjust and illogical.

Actually you are barbaric for that. Especially if you believe in heaven. It is barbaric to impose an infinite punishment for a finite wrong. Your post almost indicates that you do not believe in heaven.

 

[Loaai]

Actually you are barbaric for that. Especially if you believe in heaven. It is barbaric to impose an infinite punishment for a finite wrong. Your post almost indicates that you do not believe in heaven.

Just like there is an infinite heaven for finite morals in life, there is an infinite punishment for a finite wrong, it's justified. Why dont you mention that God is too kind to offer infinite heaven for finite morals??

 

[ChristineM]

Just like there is an infinite heaven for finite morals in life, there is an infinite punishment for a finite wrong, it's justified.

You have documentation or citation to back that claim?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Just like there is an infinite heaven for finite morals in life, there is an infinite punishment for a finite wrong, it's justified. Why dont you mention that God is too kind to offer infinite heaven for finite morals??

Sorry, but it is not. It can never be justified. Just because something makes you feel better is far from justification. An infinite punishment for a finite crime is always evil.

I guess that it is a good thing that almost all versions of "God" are self refuting.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You have documentation or citation to back that claim?

You know what is coming next.

 

[ChristineM]

You know what is coming next.

Yup. Happens every time.

 

[Loaai]

Sorry, but it is not. It can never be justified. Just because something makes you feel better is far from justification. An infinite punishment for a finite crime is always evil.

I guess that it is a good thing that almost all versions of "God" are self refuting.

Then, why don't you mention that God magnifies himself (is too kind) by offering infinite heaven for finite morals?

 

[Loaai]

You have documentation or citation to back that claim?

(Allah has promised the believers, both men and women, Gardens under which rivers flow, to stay there forever, and splendid homes in the Gardens of Eternity, and—above all—the pleasure of Allah. That is ˹truly˺ the ultimate triumph." Quran:Tobah:72)

(Those who believe and do good will be admitted into Gardens, under which rivers flow—to stay there forever by the Will of their Lord—where they will be greeted with “Peace!”) Quran:Ibrahim:23

(And those who were mindful of their Lord will be led to Paradise in ˹successive˺ groups. When they arrive at its ˹already˺ open gates, its keepers will say, “Peace be upon you! You have done well, so come in, to stay forever.”) Quran:Zumur:73

(And Paradise will be brought near to the righteous, not far off. | ˹And it will be said to them,˺ “This is what you were promised, for whoever ˹constantly˺ turned ˹to Allah˺ and kept up ˹His commandments˺| who were in awe of the Most Compassionate without seeing ˹Him˺,1 and have come with a heart turning ˹only to Him˺. | Enter it in peace. This is the Day of eternal life!” | There they will have whatever they desire, and with Us is ˹even˺ more.) Quran:Qaf:31-35

There are hundreds of verses like these in Quran that promise eternal life in paradise.

Yup. Happens every time.

If I may ask, what do you mean by 'Happens every time'?

 

[blü 2]

So now Im barbaric if I want hell for those who burnt people to death while you "the angel" want them to be healed, lets consider your opinion.. heal those who burnt people to death and did terrible catastrophes.. you consider this to be justice?

"They understand that Hitler was a badly damaged soul, who's now fixed."

You cant speak on behalf of people who got burnt to death, you are delusional of something called justice, they would have never forgiven him. Thats just your drastic opinion.

Again, if there is no hell and heaven there would never be right or wrong, a man who burnt people to death will be just as equal wih a man who did good deeds, believed and loved God. A system like this is absolutely flawed, unjust and illogical.

We're talking about divine justice.

We're also talking about a God billed as omnipotent and omniscient.

Therefore Hitler could have done nothing that God didn't intend him to do.

And Hitler didn't have any choice about that.

So is Hitler to be punished for doing God's will?

And all the people who suffered under Hitler and want revenge, these were only doing what God had always intended them to do.

They didn't have any choice either.

So are they to be rewarded for doing God's will?