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a letter to the muslims

Discussion in 'Islam DIR' started by chuck010342, Dec 25, 2004.

  1. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

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  2. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

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    I can't if he doesn't speak english now can I?
     
  3. _salam_

    _salam_ Member

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    In a extremly basic sense of the meaning I suppose. However there is more to it than just those seven things I listed. Also I said that as a Muslim we have to believe in ALL of God's Prophets (that includes Muhammad, peace be upon him) and in all of God's revelations/scriptures (that includes the Qur'an). Now obviously somebody who lived before these things came about would not be required to believe in them since they had not happened yet.

    Thats according to the Bible not the Qur'an.
     
  4. _salam_

    _salam_ Member

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    As I said before we may not know certain verses now but one day people might be able to understand them with advances in knowledge and technology. I think you're lossing site of what I have already said, maybe you should go back and read posts #126 and 127.



    The Qur'an is understadable here and now, again go back and read verse 3:7



    As its been said before the () are not in the original Arabic only in other languages. The Qur'an is understandable in Arabic.



    Again go read verse 3:7
     
  5. _salam_

    _salam_ Member

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    Obviously Jesus (pbuh) of the Bible, He would use parables in almost all of the stories He gave.



    Verse 2:132,
    "And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! God hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam."

    Care to show me where it says or even implies that Abraham (pbuh) was the first. It only shows that Abraham (pbuh) was of this faith.
     
  6. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

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    Where did his sons come from? they came from Abraham who if he teaches his sons of the faith then he himself had to be from the same faith?
     
  7. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

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    Yes but its Jesus not an interpetation of him.

    Abraham's sons came from there father and the knowledge of there faith came from there father so it comes from Abraham.
     
  8. _salam_

    _salam_ Member

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    Yes I know the verse says that Abraham (pbuh) followed Islam, I'm not denying that. However, you had said that the verse stated Abraham (pbuh) was the first to believe, and it does not say that, it merely says that he believed.
     
  9. _salam_

    _salam_ Member

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    Actually it isn't Jesus (pbuh), it's the Gospel of Jesus (pbuh) ACCORDING to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
     
  10. _salam_

    _salam_ Member

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    Let me clarify on this subject a bit more. Lets say that I were to write a medical paper describing the human body. In this paper there are no gramatical errors, I used all the correct medical terms to refer to the correct parts of the body, everything was used in the correct context, and it agreed perfectly with known medical knowledge. In other words the paper was completely perfect. Now lets say that I were to read this paper to my nine year old brother. I can assure you, and I'm sure you would agree, that he isn't going to be able to understand or comprehend some, if not the majority, of the things discussed within the paper dispite it being perfect. As we can see, the fact that my brother can't comprehend everything within the paper has no effect on the paper's validity, how truthful it is, or it's perfection.

    Let me give you another example from the Bible itself. Jesus (pbuh) would use parables to give lessons to people and to his disciples, however, the people and even sometimes his disciples didn't comprehend the meanings of the parables. Some examples:

    Matthew 13:36
    "....His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field."

    This obviously implies that they (his disciples) didn't understand the meaning.

    Mark 4:10
    "When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables....."
    Mark 4:13
    "Then Jesus said to them, "Don't you understand this parable? How then will you understand any parable?..."

    Again these show that the disciples didn't comprehend the parables.

    Mark 8:17-21 (This one isn't a parable but nonetheless it shows how the disciples didn't comprehend)
    "Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked them: "Why are you talking about having no bread? Do you still not see or understand? Are your hearts hardened? Do you have eyes but fail to see, and ears but fail to hear? And don't you remember? When I broke the five loaves for the five thousand, how many basketfuls of pieces did you pick up?"
    "Twelve," they replied.
    "And when I broke the seven loaves for the four thousand, how many basketfuls of pieces did you pick up?"
    They answered, "Seven."
    He said to them, "Do you still not understand?"

    Now, I'm sure you would agree that even though the crowds and Jesus' (pbuh) own disciples did'nt understand or comprehend the teachings/parables/signs of Jesus (pbuh) doesn't make them "useless" (as you put it), or less valid, or untrue, or have any effect on how perfect they are. Our unability to comprehend God has no effect on His perfection.

    As I have stated before, maybe when we become more knowledgable about the world around us we will be able to understand certain verses in the Qur'an that are a mystery to us now. Let me provide an example of a verse in the Qur'an that shows how this has been the case in the past.
    In the book "The Bible The Qur'an and Science" written by Dr. Maurice Bucaille (who by the way does speak Arabic), he has this to say in the chapter about astronomy.

    "The expansion of the universe is the most imposing discovery of modern science. Today it is a firmly established concept and the only debate centres around the way this is taking place.
    It was first suggested by the general theory of relativity and is backed up by physics in the examination of the galactic spectrum; the regular movement towards the red section of their spectrum may be explained by the distancing of one galaxy from another. Thus the size of the universe is probably constantly increasing and this increase will become bigger the further away the galaxies are from us. The speeds at which these celestial bodies are moving may, in the course of this perpetual expansion, go from fractions of the speed of light to speeds faster than this.
    The following verse of the Qur'an (sura 51, verse 47) where God is speaking, may perhaps be compared with modern ideas:
    "The heaven, We have built it with power, Verily We are expanding it."
    'Heaven' is the translation of the word sama' and this is exactly the extra-terrestrial world that is meant. 'We are expanding it' is the translation of the plural present participle musi' una of the verb ausa'a meaning 'to make wider, more spacious, to extend, to expand'.
    Some translators who were unable to grasp the meaning of the latter provide translations that appear to me to be mistaken, e.g. "we give generously" (R. Blachere)."

    As you can see here, the verse in the Qur'an has been misunderstood becasue the translator (R. Blachere) didn't comprehend the meaning of the verse. My guess is that he translated it before the expansion of the universe had been discovered and therefore "We are expanding it." didn't make sense to him. Now that we do know of the expansion of the universe the verse makes a lot more sense to us. There are other instenses within translations similar to this one, where phrases have been mistranslated because the translator did'nt understand what the verse meant, but with new discoveries we have made we can now comprehend these verses. So perhaps God put certain verses like this, in the Qur'an, so that they can be a sign for people of latter generations, and perhaps there will be more signs like this one found in the Qur'an. Infact these signs like this one just prove to me that the Qur'an and Islam were meant for all people for all time (which is a Muslim belief).
     
  11. Peace

    Peace Quran & Sunnah

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    The Quran is perfect in Arabic because it was revealed to Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him in Arabic and no other language. The Quran is the words of God and not the words of man that's why it is perfect. When the Quran is translated, it is translated by men and not by God and the words of men are not perfect.

    Peace
     
  12. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

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    Chuck, try to think of it this way. How many different virsions of the bible are there? Dozens all based on different translations. There is one koran. If you want to know what the koran really says you learn to read Arabic. Devotion and keeping with the origional source, not a bad combo really.

    wa:do
     
  13. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    So you admit a contradiction in the given lineage? Because they can't both be correct lineages, can they chuck?
    I suppose this also goes to the question of whether jesus is a jewish moshiach......but i'm gonna start rambling here in a minute so i'll stop
     
  14. _salam_

    _salam_ Member

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    Well said.;)
     
  15. _salam_

    _salam_ Member

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    Any other questions or things you would like to discuss Chuck?
     
  16. Feathers in Hair

    Feathers in Hair World's Tallest Hobbit

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    He may be busy writing a letter to the relativists. :jiggy:
     
  17. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    Yes i'm waiting to see who's next....
     
  18. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

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    You just countradicted yourself.

    yeah I know that the ( ) are not in the Koran so why are they there now? because the koran was translated into english. The Koran does not speak fully to everybody because it was revealed in Arabic, therefore it is not perfect because it shows paticularity to a specific language.
     
  19. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    And the Bible doesn`t?
     
  20. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

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    I see. this makes good sense. There is still the language barrier is there not? your 9 year old brother does not see that medical paper as perfect if he cannot understand it can he not?

    They didn't understand BEFORE the holy spirit was given. And Jesus always explained his parables when he needed to.
    I really wanted to read that book but time isn't permitable.

    right here, how can something be perfect yet not understandable?
     
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