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a letter to the muslims

Discussion in 'Islam DIR' started by chuck010342, Dec 25, 2004.

  1. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Amen to that! Bless you both.

    Scott
     
  2. Peace

    Peace Quran & Sunnah

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    Thanks be to God!! :)
     
  3. Peace

    Peace Quran & Sunnah

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    Thanks SOGEPP!!! May our dear God bless us all and be pleased with us, ameen!!


    Peace
     
  4. croak

    croak Trickster

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    Where'd chuck go? :p
     
  5. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

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    I said lets do them ONE at a time I have plenty others.

    Hmmm your right I see how thats not a countradiction.

    I just said that you are correct. Therefore I'm wrong. If you continue to use adhominen reasoning then our conversation is finished.
     
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  6. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

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  7. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    What's your next contradiction, Chuck? (Frubals to you for conceding that you were wrong about the first!)
     
  8. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

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  9. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

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    What are you talking about?


    I can do the same for the Quran however if you can show me how they countradictions I have are not true and I can do likewise for yours then we would both agree that countradictions do not exsist in either books.
     
  10. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

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    I'm right here. Things said on this thread do not belong here and I do not need to be saying things back to them. Like what you said about tolerance of Muslims. I tolerant them but I don't agree with them. WHen you say something like that It belongs in the Discussion threads NOT in the debate forums. ( I hope a Mod will agree with me)
     
  11. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

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    Who was the first Muslim.

    Muhummed? (39:12)

    Moses?(7:143)

    Abraham?(2:132).

    These give countradictory accounts as to who was the first to believe.
     
  12. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

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    Let me Clarify something I Tolerate Muslims. "true tolerance means “putting up with error”—not “being accepting of all views.” We don’t tolerate what we enjoy or approve of—like chocolate or Bach’s music. By definition, what we tolerate is what we disapprove of or what we believe to be false and erroneous. Furthermore, tolerance presupposes an adequate grasp of what another person believes—as well as a knowledge of the strengths and weaknesses of such belief. Actually, if disagreement didn’t exist, then tolerance would be unnecessary."

    Borrowed agian from www.rzim.org
     
  13. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

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    "Before Abraham was I AM"
     
  14. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

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    The bible is over 2,000 pages long. I like to Go one at a time. Pick one and I'll show you how it cannot be a countradiction
     
  15. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    How about the lineage of Jesus?
     
  16. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

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    what about them?
     
  17. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    They are contradictions.
    Explain them and don`t use the old tired "One was Marys" BS
     
  18. Druidus

    Druidus Keeper of the Grove

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    This may be new to me as well. Could you expand on it in a PM, if Chuck doesn't explain it?

    What do you think about Jesus having a wife, and even a child, Chuck?
     
  19. _salam_

    _salam_ Member

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    Alright, befrore I begin I would like to say to Chuck that I apologize if I came off as being boastful or rude in my response. I would also like to applaud Chuck for looking at my reply with an open mind and especial for admitting that things were not as they seemed. Props to you, cause I know it's not easy for people to admit when they have made a mistake.

    Now back to the issue at hand, I will say right now from the beginning that my response isn't going to be as clear cut as the last one. The reason for this being that two out of the three verses that were put forward are open to interpretation (which I will explain latter on). As you can imagine different interpretations can give very different views on a subject. So here we go, I will once again provide the verses for those of you that are following along.

    Verse 2:132 says:
    "And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! God hath chosen The Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam."

    This verse obviouslly implies that Abraham (pbuh) was a Muslim and I'm sure this is why Chuck included it.

    Verse 7:143 says:
    "....When his Lord manifested His glory on the Mount, He made it as dust, and Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to Thee! To Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe."

    Verse 39:12 says:
    "And I (Muhammad) am commanded to be the first of those who bow to God in Islam."

    Bofore I continue I would like to give a little explanation of the Muslim belief as for who we believe to be the first Muslim. We believe the first Muslim to be Adam (pbuh) and we also believe that all the Prophets (peace be upon them all) from Adam up to Muhammad were Muslim's. Even though these people didn't call themselves Muslim's we believe they were Muslim's in the sense that they believed in the One True God and that they taught the submission to God's will, in other words they called people to follow and obey God.

    Now to tackle the issue. I stated before that two of the verse were open to interpretation, these two would be verses 7:143 and 39:12. At a first glance it might appear that there isn't much to interpret from these verses, however, when one looks at them closer we find that there are no specifics stated as to how or who Prophets Moses and Muhammad (pbut) were the first of. How they were the first, might sound kind of weird but I say "how" because in the commentary provided by Yusuf Ali in his Translation of the Meaning of the Qur'an, he interprets these verses to mean not the first in a chronological sense but rather the first, or the most eminent one, in "zeal" and "readiness to suffer for the Cause". I also said "who" because the text doesn't specify who these Prophets (pbut) were the first of. Were they the first of all of mankind in general, were they the first among their own people, their tribes, their families, the fact is that it isn't specified within the text.

    At this point we're left with how we should decide to interpret these verses. As I stated earlier Muslim's believe Adam (pbuh) to be the first Muslim. This belief puts a limitation on how a Muslim can now interpret these verses. If the Muslim already believes that Adam (pbuh) was the first Muslim then it makes no sense that he would interpret these verses to mean that Moses or Muhammad (pbut) was now the first Muslim of all time. So a Muslim is not able to interpret these verses in this sense due to the limitation from the basic belief about Adam (pbuh). At this point a Muslim has to find a logical interpretation such as the one provided by Yusuf Ali or that these Prophets (pbut) were the first Muslims of their people/community, which is a perfectly reasonable explanation. Yes, Moses' (pbuh) people were Jews, however, they were extremely ignorant to there religion and didn't exactly follow it or know much about it even after Moses tried to teach them, so I think it's safe to say that this interpretation applies here. As for Muhammad (pbuh) this interpretation applies without a doubt. Now for a non-Muslim, who isn't limited in his interpretation by the beleif about Adam (pbuh), he could have no problem coming up with an interpretation that would be contradictory, but for the Muslim this is not something he can do.

    My point is this, being that the verses are open to interpretation there are many things that could be given to explain the verses. I'm sure you would agree that certain verses in the Bible that are open to interpretation could, depending on the interpretation, appear to be contradictory. (Notice that I'm NOT saying that such verses are contradictory or are not contradictory, but rather that depending on the intrepretation they might appear to be contradictory)
     
  20. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

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    One of Marys? what do you mean?

    I don't see how the different geneologies are countradictory. One Geneology doesn't say that Solomon was the son of David. while another says that David was the son of Solomon.

    Luke is greek so I think he traced the linage back to God. Matthew is Hebrew so he traces the linage back to the father of the Hebrews Abraham.
     
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