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a letter to the muslims

Discussion in 'Islam DIR' started by chuck010342, Dec 25, 2004.

  1. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

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  2. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

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    Mock? I would never do that. If it seems that I have, then I apologize. If people in my faith mock people of other faiths then they are not members of my faith I want nothing to do with them. In only one circumstance I would (but there are not muslims)

    I have not attacked anybody, Its called a debate. I will show you how this cannot be in another thread.
     
  3. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

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    Jesus says "I am the way the light and the truth"

    Does Mohummed ever say that "Jesus is the light and the thruth"?

    Jihad has two meanings. One it is one of an internal struggle that a muslim goes thru trying to be with the right of God. The second meaning is one of outworldy fighting like a war, that muslims have waged in the past. Some Like the Whabbis still are.
     
  4. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

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    yeah

    Whoa wait a min here. I thought that the Quran was perfect? How then can it be open to interpetation?
     
  5. _salam_

    _salam_ Member

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    Correct, however I would just like to specify a couple of things about the second form of Jihad. As you said it is a outworldy struggle or fighting, but let us keep in mind that struggling or fighting against worldly forces doesn't always have to have a violent means. I'm not saying that fighting (in a physical sense) isn't alloud, cause it is, but it has certain specifics put on it. As I have said before fighting is only alloud in self defence or if you are being oppressed, and Here is a very small overview of some of the the rules or conditions that must be followed if a Muslim does have to fight.
     
  6. _salam_

    _salam_ Member

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    I didn't know that interpretations made something "unperfect". Would you not agree that the Bible has verses that could/are interpreted differently by different people. Also when we look to the Qur'an itself we find that it says in verse 3:7

    "He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof thta is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from the Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding."
     
  7. _salam_

    _salam_ Member

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    As we can see from this verse, the fundamentals of the book (or those things that have established meaning) are the foundation of the Qur'an. However, the book also has verses that are allegories that may or may not have a hidden meaning in them (this obviously implies that they are open to interpretation) and that sometimes Allah is the only one how knows these hidden meanings.
     
  8. Peace

    Peace Quran & Sunnah

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    Allah revealed the Quran in the Arabic language because Prophet Muhammed is an Arab, so normally the Quran must be revealed in the Arabic language and no other language. But the message of Islam is universal; it is destined for all humanity Arabs and non Arabs, and you must know that non Arabs Muslims are more in number than the Arabs.

    Peace
     
  9. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

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    If the Quran is destined for all of humanity they why is it in its perfect form in a paticular language?
     
  10. _salam_

    _salam_ Member

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    Simply because that's the language that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) spoke. It would make no sense for God to reveal the Qur'an to Muhammad (pbuh) in any other language. I think (and please correct me if I'm wrong) you believe the Bible is a perfect book, but the whole of the Bible wasn't even revealed, or originally written, in the same language. And I'm guessing the Bible that you are reading is written in English, which we both know isn't the language it was first revealed/written in. I'm sure if God had decided to reveal the Qur'an in English, or any other language, it would still be in perfect form.
     
  11. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

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    Salam your the first Muslim to give me an answer to this question. You seem to be a muslim apologetic :)


    God is perfect right? His book is perfect right? Humans are not perfect right? So why are you relying on a non perfect being to explain the perfect?

    Yes I would agree but the bible is not directly from God. God used man to write his book, so therefore we would expect some passages not to be clear because they are partly from Humans and Partly from God.

    [/quote] "He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof thta is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from the Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding."[/QUOTE]
    ;) ;)
    Two questions 1. WHere did those ( ) come from? Were they part of the orginal koran or was it the work of humans to put them in?
    2. If only Allah knows the meaning of the words then why does he even write the book in the first place?
     
  12. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

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    Does this mean I get frubals? ( I still have no idea what those are) It is easy for me to say I made a mistake because I have made thousands of them. THats how you learn. Besides my master is quite good at forgiving those who make mistakes does he not?


    Verse 2:132 says:
    so now its not Abraham Moses or Mohummed but Adam.

    Even Balaam?

    What exactly is a prophet according to islam. I ask because would this include Jonah?

    So what your saying is that there is a pecking order to how one can be a muslim? Doesn't this countradict the fact that all muslims submit there will to Allah and should give there lives for him?

    Your right here

    Adam had to be the first muslim because he was the first in his own people his own tribe and his own family.

    One of the few instances where the bible goes with the Koran.
     
  13. croak

    croak Trickster

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    Well, I guess it's my turn.

    What's that supposed to mean?

    Allah sent His Message to us, to believe in Him and do good. Now, it is obvious that people interpret things in different ways. For example:

    I asked ten people to describe an elephant:

    It is big.
    It has a long trunk.
    It has four legs.
    It can fly (a kid who watched Dumbo ;)).
    It is a herbivore.
    It can swim.
    It likes water.
    It has a rope-like tail.
    It cannot jump.
    It lives in Africa and Asia.

    Now, this is ten people describing an elephant. Now, they can be correct, as most of them are. They interpret it as being big, herbivorous, etc. However, some interprtations can be incorrect, such as the child's interpretation. My point: Humans should base their ideas on what Allah has revealed to us. The interprtations are based on revelation. Many people, however, base interpretations upon other peoples interpretations, meaning that you interpreted their interpretations wrong. We rely on ourseleves or other people to interpret Allah's Word. We might interpret wrong, but someone else will interpret correctly. So, it all comes down to what Allah has revealed and how we can understand it.
    I don't think that made much sense, so you might like to ignore it.

    These () do not exist in Arabic, they only exist in other languages. Why? A ayat in Arabic makes sense, but in English, it doesn't. The words enclosed in () make the Ayat make sense in English; without them, it wouldn't. This is precisely why you should learn the Qur'an in Arabic.

    Read again.
    It clearly states that if you are looking in the allegorical parts, looking for contradictions (discord), and searching for hidden meanings, you won't find them, because no one knows the except for Allah. Example: At the beginning of Surah Al-Baqarah, in the first Ayat, is Alf-Lam-Meem. It roughly translates to A-L-M, which are the sounds those letters represent. Do you know what that means? No, and neither do I. Only Allah knows. So, unless you know the meaning, you can't make a contradiction. Obviously, the whole Qur'an isn't allegorical. So, there are only some things that we are unable to understand. But why have an allegorical part at all? It's like asking why did 'Isa (Jesus)(as) speak in parables? The allegorical part, for Muslims, should mean that we do not know some things, and that those things we do not understand are proof of a being far more knowledgeable and intelligent than us.

    I am not sure of your master, but my Master is Most-Merciful.

    Let's look at them again:
    I cannot remember the exact meaning of Islam, but as far as I know, it is "submission to Allah." Now, here, Ibrahim (Abraham)(as) is telling them not to die as disbelievers, but as a people who believe in Allah and submit themselves to Him.

    These are Musa (Moses)(as)'s words, correct? Now, if you read the preceding Ayat, you shall find out that he was in the presence of people. So, we can conclude he is the first to believe from the people.

    Here is Islam, the religion revealed to Muhammed (saas).

    Who's that?

    People who have been chosen to reveal Allah's Word. Jonah is included. He is mentioned in the Qur'an as being a Prophet.

    I don't say there is a pecking order. If you want to be a Muslim, you can. No questions asked. Except that you might be asked if you're telling the truth.

    He (as) had to be because he was in Heaven before he was sent to Earth, and he saw Allah, the Angels, and the Jinn. You think somebody wouldn't believe if Allah Himself was talking to Him?
     
  14. _salam_

    _salam_ Member

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    What questions is that? (I think you're referring to the one about the Qur'an being revealed in Arabic, but correct me if I'm wrong) I wouldn't consider myself an apologetic, cause I don't feel that I'm apologizing for anything within my religion, I'm just trying to explain what my religion teaches and believes.




    The reason I'm "relying" on a person to try and explain certain verses to me is because as the Qur'an said itself "others (meaning verses) are allegorical" and "no one knows its (the Qur'an) hidden meanings except Allah". Therefore we know that there are going to be things in the Qur'an that we can't understand at the present time. Some reasons for this could be that: One, God is not fully comprehendable to humans, or two we do not have the current knowledge and understanding to decifer certain verses but perhaps we will in the future.

    Perhaps if I provide another interpretation of the meaning of the Qur'an it will help to answer your first question. Maulana Muhammad Ali translates verse 3:7 this way:

    "He it is Who has revealed the Book to thee; some of its verses are decisive - they are the basis of the Book - and others are allegorical. Then those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead, and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. And none knows its interpretation save Allah, and those firmly rooted in knowledge. They say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord. And none mind except men of understanding."

    So it would appear to me that the verse, even without the parenthesis (sp?), still holds the same meaning, that is that the decisive or verses of established meaning are the basis of the Book, and it would appear that Yusuf Ali translated it the way he did, with the parenthesis, only to add clarification. Now judging by the question that you posted right after this I can tell the point that your trying to make. If I say that Yusuf Ali added this for clarification then your going to tell me that the Qur'an now has the word of man in it and is not dirrectly Gods word. However, lets keep in mind that only the original Arabic is considered the Qur'an. What I have posted on here is merely the Translation of the MEANING of the Qur'an, and is not to be confused as being the actual Qur'an itself. So in other words when we read the Qur'an in any other language but Arabic we are just reading the MEANING of the Qur'an and not the actual Qur'an.

    Now to answer the your second question, I would say that Allah gives us the Qur'an to teach us.
     
  15. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    I think the word "apologetic" is here being used in it's old fashioned sense of "to defend" rather than "to apologize."
     
  16. croak

    croak Trickster

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    I thought that as well.
     
  17. croak

    croak Trickster

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    Hey, I got an idea. chuck can ask this kid to see if there are any contradictions. :p
     
  18. _salam_

    _salam_ Member

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    In my response to this I'm going to give some quotes from The Complete Idiots Guide to Understanding Islam, written by Yahiya Emerick. In the chapter titled "It's All in the Prophets" it says:

    "The Qur'an puts it this way:
    "O Muhammad, We have sent revelations to you just as We sent them to Noah and the Prophets who came after him; We also sent revelations to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, his descendants, and to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron and Solomon. We revealed the Psalms to David. Revelations were also sent to those Messengers whom We have already mentioned to you and to those whose name We have not mentioned to you, and God spoke to Moses directly. All these Messengers conveyed good news to mankind and admonished them so that, after conveying the message through the Messengers, people would have no excuse to plead against God. Indeed, God is the Mighty, the Wise." (Qur'an 4:163-165)
    So Islam accepts all true prophets from God whether He told us their name in the Qur'an or not."

    Further in the book it states:
    "When Muslims try to identify a potential prophet in a religion they have just encountered, we must first ask several questions. The first question is this: Was the religion founded between the time of Adam and Muhammad? Why focus on this range? The Qur'an calls Muhammad the seal and the last Prophet to the world. If the religion was founded after the time of Muhammad, then Islam says it is a false religion. To be even more accurate, we find that Prophet Muhammad said, "There were no Prophets sent to the world between Jesus and I."......
    "The second question is what did that founding person teach? This is where a little deeper investigation is necessary. Through the use of whatever old records are available, a survey of current practices and their consistency can be conducted....... Some Muslim scholars, who have undertaken such a survey, are of the opinion that Buddha might even have been a prophet of God whose teachings became altered through the centuries...... While these theories cannot really be proven with available data, it is interesting to get a peek into how the world of Islam tries to make sense of and integrate the founders of other religions into its own milieu. None of this influences Islamic teachings, however, which are forever enshrined in the Qur'an and in the sayings of Muhammad. This process does serve to accentuate the strain of tolerance inherent in Islamic philosophy, though. If all true religion is from God, then all prophets must be brothers. How can a Muslim discriminate against a follower of another religion?"

    Later in the same chapter it says:
    "Islam accepts that written revelations given by God existed before the time of the Qur'an...... There are two types of prophets: regular prophets who received prophecies, and messengers who received codified "books" that were meant to be passed down...... So, where do all these revelations come from? The Qur'an says that God keeps a special book with Him called the "Mother of the Book." This is the source from which all revelations are derived. When a messenger is supposed to receive a message from God, the Angel Gabriel, who is nicknamed the Spirit of Holiness (also often called the Holy Spirit, as you can see it doesn't have the same meaning as in trinitarian belief) in the Qur'an, takes the revelation from the "Mother of the Book" and brings it to the messenger entitled to get it."

    What I'm saying is that in order for a person to be considered a Muslim he does have to believe in certain things, thats simply what makes a Muslim a Muslim or a Christian a Christian and so on, wouldn't you agree? For example some very basic things that a person would have to believe in order to be considered a Muslim would be belief in God, belief in the angels, belief in the revealed Books of God, belief in God's prophets, belief in the day of judgement, belief in the divine measurement of human affairs, and belief in a life after death.

    There are actually quite a few instances where the two agree.
     
  19. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

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    yes I would agree.

    I believe in all of these things how come I'm not a muslim then?

    Quite a few? Maybe the OT but not the NT.

    The reason I asked about Jonah is because Jonah was not a willing prophet. I wanted to know if the critera for a prophet was his willingness to submit to God.
     
  20. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

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    See sunstones post he gives the answer.


    If nobody knows the meanings of the verses execpt Allah then why are they there? Its not for humans because we cannot understand them in the first place. Also if Nobody knows then your not relying on a person at all. If nobody knows the meaning of the verses then the verses are useless. And the Koran cannot be a perfect book if it has useless verses in them.

    Another critera for the book not being perfect and from heaven. If the book is perfect then it should be able to be understood in the now.

    right so the koran cannot be perfect for all humans because we need ( ) to clarify it. If the book was perfect for all humans then we wouldn't need the ( ) now would we?

    Teach us? How can it teach us if the book has verses in them that cannot be understood?
     
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