Mr Spinkles
Mr
So, in order to figure out whether or not cows are sacred in the eyes of Brahman, I need to "practice"? Practice what?NetDoc said:
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In which religion should I have faith?
- Thread starter Mr Spinkles
- Start date
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
You could go that route, but if the premise of Brahmanism is that cows are sacred, then obviously those Brahmins who eat beef are not the ones to observe and make a judgement about Brahmanism.
Look at how many people join a gym... to a large degree, most seem to fail. Yet when we see obese people going into and leaving the gym, we don't assign blame to the gym. No, the gym is only as useful as the people actually USE it. They sacrifice time and some sweat and fitness is the ultimate outcome. It won't happen by tomorrow, and won't happen at all if you don't practice!
You can believe that the gym will be beneficial to you, but until you start to actually exercise none of can help you.
Look at how many people join a gym... to a large degree, most seem to fail. Yet when we see obese people going into and leaving the gym, we don't assign blame to the gym. No, the gym is only as useful as the people actually USE it. They sacrifice time and some sweat and fitness is the ultimate outcome. It won't happen by tomorrow, and won't happen at all if you don't practice!
You can believe that the gym will be beneficial to you, but until you start to actually exercise none of can help you.
martha
Active Member
I have not read the other responses yet, but I will. I do not wish to be influenced at this point by my brother and sister's responces before I give mine.
There is a song that we Christians sing and it is called, " How great Thou art" the words go....
Oh Lord, my God, when I in awesome wonder, consider all the works Thy hands have made. I see the stars. I hear the rolling thunder. Thy power throughout the universe displayed. Then sings my soul...my Savior God to Thee. How great Thou art, how great Thou art.
When you feel the ring of truth in your soul upon something good you have done or some beautiful gift of kindness that has been given to you, then that is what you should base your faith or belief in. God's essence is LOVE, that is what God is. I promise you, I gaurantee you, His essence is LOVE. He knows we are not perfect. He knows we are seeking knowledge. He made us! He knows His creation! We have been created out of that LOVE. It is all loving, all forgiving and all encompassing. You will know God when you meet Him in your soul, in your dealings with your brothers and sisters of this earth, whom He created as well as you.. When you feel compassion, sympathy, when you can empathize with others. That beloved, is God, the God which is within you. That is where one connects with faith. It is faith in humanity. It is the subtle realization that we are all truly alike. We have the same color blood. We have the same DNA connections. We have the same wants for our children. We have the same exact desires for our loved ones.. The same sorrows and anxieties. The same fears. The same physical pains. We have the same egos. We have all experienced it here at RF. There is beauty here. There is love here, unconditional, no matter what one calls himself. God is here my dear. God is right here. God is with you and me and everyone who comes here, and everyone who doesn't. It is our choice to embrace His LOVE, or reject it for something that is less than LOVE.
God created every human being in this world and He gave each one a different culture to belong to , because it was pleasing to Him and he revealed Himself to each culture in different ways, but with the same basic knowledge. That basic knowledge is that He created us and He loves us. He asks that we love Him for creating us. He doesn't care what we call Him, as long as we understand that He would do anything for us, to the point of giving His essence in crucifixion, or to the point of our understanding that He might reincarnate our souls to live again to attain a closer relationship to Him, and so on and so on to what ever degree He has instilled Himself in our souls. There is no need for disagreement, no need to kill in the name of God, no need for greed or hatred. We are all the same, created by the God who created the entire universe, with abundance for all of us! Greed is the chasm between us and God! We have become full of ourselves. There are those who do not embrace the love of God in their lives. They are the ones who are troubled with afflictive emotions, they are the ones who are lost to the misery of the world. They are the ones who don't know love and are capable of perpetrating terrible pain and attrocities against all of the bretheren. When there is no love there is no understanding or hope, all is lost and nothing matters, nothing is a big deal, anything goes. Love which is the essence of God is the healing force. Share your love with as many people as you can, every day to heal the world. He has given us that gift, that power. We should give of our selves freely with love and compassion at every opportunity.
Oh brother, I dont know where that all came from. Wo! Sorry for the diatribe, but there it is, from my being. Apparently this is me. This is truly what I believe. Please God, may I be right in my understanding. If nothing else, I know what love and compassion means.
Gee, I wonder what the ramifications of this post will be?
Joyfully in Jesus, the God of my understanding,
Martha
There is a song that we Christians sing and it is called, " How great Thou art" the words go....
Oh Lord, my God, when I in awesome wonder, consider all the works Thy hands have made. I see the stars. I hear the rolling thunder. Thy power throughout the universe displayed. Then sings my soul...my Savior God to Thee. How great Thou art, how great Thou art.
When you feel the ring of truth in your soul upon something good you have done or some beautiful gift of kindness that has been given to you, then that is what you should base your faith or belief in. God's essence is LOVE, that is what God is. I promise you, I gaurantee you, His essence is LOVE. He knows we are not perfect. He knows we are seeking knowledge. He made us! He knows His creation! We have been created out of that LOVE. It is all loving, all forgiving and all encompassing. You will know God when you meet Him in your soul, in your dealings with your brothers and sisters of this earth, whom He created as well as you.. When you feel compassion, sympathy, when you can empathize with others. That beloved, is God, the God which is within you. That is where one connects with faith. It is faith in humanity. It is the subtle realization that we are all truly alike. We have the same color blood. We have the same DNA connections. We have the same wants for our children. We have the same exact desires for our loved ones.. The same sorrows and anxieties. The same fears. The same physical pains. We have the same egos. We have all experienced it here at RF. There is beauty here. There is love here, unconditional, no matter what one calls himself. God is here my dear. God is right here. God is with you and me and everyone who comes here, and everyone who doesn't. It is our choice to embrace His LOVE, or reject it for something that is less than LOVE.
God created every human being in this world and He gave each one a different culture to belong to , because it was pleasing to Him and he revealed Himself to each culture in different ways, but with the same basic knowledge. That basic knowledge is that He created us and He loves us. He asks that we love Him for creating us. He doesn't care what we call Him, as long as we understand that He would do anything for us, to the point of giving His essence in crucifixion, or to the point of our understanding that He might reincarnate our souls to live again to attain a closer relationship to Him, and so on and so on to what ever degree He has instilled Himself in our souls. There is no need for disagreement, no need to kill in the name of God, no need for greed or hatred. We are all the same, created by the God who created the entire universe, with abundance for all of us! Greed is the chasm between us and God! We have become full of ourselves. There are those who do not embrace the love of God in their lives. They are the ones who are troubled with afflictive emotions, they are the ones who are lost to the misery of the world. They are the ones who don't know love and are capable of perpetrating terrible pain and attrocities against all of the bretheren. When there is no love there is no understanding or hope, all is lost and nothing matters, nothing is a big deal, anything goes. Love which is the essence of God is the healing force. Share your love with as many people as you can, every day to heal the world. He has given us that gift, that power. We should give of our selves freely with love and compassion at every opportunity.
Oh brother, I dont know where that all came from. Wo! Sorry for the diatribe, but there it is, from my being. Apparently this is me. This is truly what I believe. Please God, may I be right in my understanding. If nothing else, I know what love and compassion means.
Gee, I wonder what the ramifications of this post will be?
Joyfully in Jesus, the God of my understanding,
Martha
Rozs
Member
Church of God
Acts 20:28
28Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers.[a] Be shepherds of the church of God,[b] which he bought with his own blood.
I Cor 1:2
2To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christtheir Lord and ours:
II Cor 1:1
1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God in Corinth, together with all the saints throughout Achaia:
I Tim 3:15
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
But be careful....
Mat 24:24
24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the electif that were possible
Acts 20:28
28Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers.[a] Be shepherds of the church of God,[b] which he bought with his own blood.
I Cor 1:2
2To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christtheir Lord and ours:
II Cor 1:1
1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God in Corinth, together with all the saints throughout Achaia:
I Tim 3:15
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
But be careful....
Mat 24:24
24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the electif that were possible
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
Rozs,
methinks you missed the point.
methinks you missed the point.
Mr Spinkles
Mr
Don't be too quick to throw stones at Rozs, NetDoc. 
You seem to be trying to answer a question I haven't asked. I'm not asking how to determine if the belief that cows are sacred is useful/beneficial, I'm asking how to determine if it is true. I don't see how ignoring Hindus who eat beef has anything to do with whether or not cows are sacred to Brahman.
Again, you refer to "practicing" in order to determine if the belief is true....practice what? What kind of "practice" will prove that there is one God and his name is Allah and disprove that there are six gods and their names are Fred, George, Emily.....?
You seem to be trying to answer a question I haven't asked. I'm not asking how to determine if the belief that cows are sacred is useful/beneficial, I'm asking how to determine if it is true. I don't see how ignoring Hindus who eat beef has anything to do with whether or not cows are sacred to Brahman.
Again, you refer to "practicing" in order to determine if the belief is true....practice what? What kind of "practice" will prove that there is one God and his name is Allah and disprove that there are six gods and their names are Fred, George, Emily.....?
jewscout
Religious Zionist
Spinkles,
If your looking for the faith held up by "truth" your in the middle of an exercise in futility. I think many on here in several different threads have brought up the point that "truth" or something being "true" in a situation like that is purely subjective and there is no consensus on the matter. Not even atheism can claim to be of truth since millions of people would claim otherwise.
If you want my opinion many of the people on this thread are right in saying, choosing a faith should be about what works for you and makes you feel the most at home, then it will be "true" to you and that's all that matters. You may have to sacrafice for it as NetDoc has pointed out, but if you truely feel this is what your calling is it won't matter.
If your looking for the faith held up by "truth" your in the middle of an exercise in futility. I think many on here in several different threads have brought up the point that "truth" or something being "true" in a situation like that is purely subjective and there is no consensus on the matter. Not even atheism can claim to be of truth since millions of people would claim otherwise.
If you want my opinion many of the people on this thread are right in saying, choosing a faith should be about what works for you and makes you feel the most at home, then it will be "true" to you and that's all that matters. You may have to sacrafice for it as NetDoc has pointed out, but if you truely feel this is what your calling is it won't matter.
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
Spinks
I am not sure how cars you have bought... but would you buy one without test driving it first? Sure the "Ads" make them ALL look spiffy and fine, but until you get behind the wheel you will never know. Think of the different denominations as different makes. All make promises of this that and the other thing, but which ones fulfill those promises?
So if you are looking to figure which faith is correct without actually trying the faith... good luck! It ain't happening. Think of all the adherents as "ads". Some of those ads are for people driving their faith at full speed! Some are people who haven't quite figured out how to shift or brake. Some of ads are of people dring the wrong way on a one say street. Some are people content to just sit in their vehicle and do nothing with it. Make sure you find the adherent who is not only activly driving, but inthe right way, and having FUN while doing it while helping others learn how to drive.
I am not sure how cars you have bought... but would you buy one without test driving it first? Sure the "Ads" make them ALL look spiffy and fine, but until you get behind the wheel you will never know. Think of the different denominations as different makes. All make promises of this that and the other thing, but which ones fulfill those promises?
So if you are looking to figure which faith is correct without actually trying the faith... good luck! It ain't happening. Think of all the adherents as "ads". Some of those ads are for people driving their faith at full speed! Some are people who haven't quite figured out how to shift or brake. Some of ads are of people dring the wrong way on a one say street. Some are people content to just sit in their vehicle and do nothing with it. Make sure you find the adherent who is not only activly driving, but inthe right way, and having FUN while doing it while helping others learn how to drive.
Mr Spinkles
Mr
Well NetDoc, I can see what you're saying if we're talking about testable things....so for example, if someone says hydrogen is flammable, I should go try this out to see if it's true (taking the proper precautions, of course! ). I should go test their claim. That makes sense.
However, by what methods can I test whether or not Brahman thinks cows are sacred? How do I experiment with the number of gods, and determine that there is one god and his name is Allah (rather than the six gods whose names are Fred, Emily, etc.)?
And what do you mean by "trying the faith"? How does conversion to, say, Orthodox Judaism and a devout following of its rituals verify or falsify the claim that Jesus was not the Messiah and that the Messiah is yet to come?
Again, I'm not asking how I find out whether belief in claim X is useful or beneficial. I'm asking how I find out whether claim X is true or false.
It's the same method by which I determine whether or not the claims "unicorns exist" and "black holes exist" are true: evidence. The evidence suggests to me that god(s) are societal/psychological ideas rather than physical reality.
But what evidence would suggest that there is one god and his name is Allah, rather than six gods whose names are Fred, Emily, etc.?
). I should go test their claim. That makes sense.However, by what methods can I test whether or not Brahman thinks cows are sacred? How do I experiment with the number of gods, and determine that there is one god and his name is Allah (rather than the six gods whose names are Fred, Emily, etc.)?
And what do you mean by "trying the faith"? How does conversion to, say, Orthodox Judaism and a devout following of its rituals verify or falsify the claim that Jesus was not the Messiah and that the Messiah is yet to come?
Again, I'm not asking how I find out whether belief in claim X is useful or beneficial. I'm asking how I find out whether claim X is true or false.
I think atheism is true, and there is a method behind this madness.jewscout said:
It's the same method by which I determine whether or not the claims "unicorns exist" and "black holes exist" are true: evidence. The evidence suggests to me that god(s) are societal/psychological ideas rather than physical reality.But what evidence would suggest that there is one god and his name is Allah, rather than six gods whose names are Fred, Emily, etc.?
jewscout
Religious Zionist
in 1000 BCE what evidence was there that DNA existed? simply because science has yet to discover something does not mean it doesn't exist...of course i could be wrongMr_Spinkles said:
I suppose the followers of Fred would ask what evidence is there that existance is simply a matter of cosmic and chemical accidents, that our existance is just a matter of dumb luck and without purpose.Mr_Spinkles said:
That who we are as beings is simply to be born, eat, sleep, procreate, and then return to the chemical compounds which we are made up of...nothing more...
Regardless of your feelings on religion, spirituality or the Divine, Spinkles...hypothetically speaking of course
...if you were to choose a faith, find the one that gives that meaning and purpose to your life...if you find that in atheism, buddhism, judaism, islam, or the Church of Alvis more power to you i really don't think it matters so long as you're a good person...For me anyways...that's what i've come to understand when it comes to religion...i feel that to look for "The Truth" in any faith is something any of us will spend the rest of our lives searching for. The existance of this very forum is proof that not even Atheism has a corner on the "truth" market, since, as i said before, "truth" is a subjective matter. There are as many forms of the "truth" as there are belief systems (including atheism).
Mr Spinkles
Mr
By your logic, we can safely conclude that unicorns exist....after all, maybe we'll discover evidence for them someday.jewscout said:in 1000 BCE what evidence was there that DNA existed? simply because science has yet to discover something does not mean it doesn't exist...of course i could be wrong
Our knowledge is constrained by the evidence, jewscout. If someone had told me in 1000 BCE that DNA exists, I would ask that person to show me the evidence (or at least provide some falsifiable/testable predictions for their theory). If they didn't have any evidence, I would conclude that they probably have no idea what they're talking about, and any relationship between their belief and reality is purely coincidental. When it comes to God(s) and spirits, I have even more confidence that there is a large gap between peoples' beliefs and reality--after all, people have strong emotional/psychological investments in these beliefs. Even if they aren't true, individuals and societies want--even need--to believe that they are true.
A beautiful strawman, jewscout.jewscout said:
There is a difference between "we know X, Y, and Z, and that is the limit of our knowledge" and "we know X, Y, and Z, and that is all there is". Of course, even the former view differs significantly from most forms of theism.I agree.jewscout said:
I disagree. If I ask "What is the capital of South Carolina?" some answers are more true than others. Perhaps, when dealing with the question "How many gods are there, and what are their names?" the closest to the truth we can get is "I don't know". Why then, must people insist on X number of gods and on certain names? What's so horrible about admitting we don't know?jewscout said:
Master Vigil
Well-Known Member
"the closest to the truth we can get is "I don't know". Why then, must people insist on X number of gods and on certain names? What's so horrible about admitting we don't know?"
HAHAHAHA!!!! More zen. I know you probably don't like when I say this, but you think very similar to the way zen monks think. (In no way am I trying to persuade you to follow buddhism, I'm just pointing out similarities. Because of course there are other parts I'm sure you disagree with.)
HAHAHAHA!!!! More zen. I know you probably don't like when I say this, but you think very similar to the way zen monks think. (In no way am I trying to persuade you to follow buddhism, I'm just pointing out similarities. Because of course there are other parts I'm sure you disagree with.)
Mr Spinkles
Mr
That may be true...I don't really know anything about zen buddhism. I do, however, remember Socrates' advice "know thyself", and I think part of knowing yourself is knowing that you don't know.Master Vigil said:
Master Vigil
Well-Known Member
Alot of mystics claim that the most enlightened people know simply that they don't know. I like the story of when Bodhidharma went to see the emperor when he went to china. The emperor was this horrible guy when he was younger. So he built all these temples and gave all this money to the monks. And when he was face to face with bodhidharma he asked him "I have done all this in the name of the Buddha, what merit do I have?" And bodhidharma said... "No merit." And then the emperor asked him more questions which recieved the same indifferent answers, but the last question is my favorite. The emperor asked "Well, what are we and what is the purpose for the universe?" And bodhidharma replied... "I don't know."
martha
Active Member
Well I just have to say it, your answer has been given to you in a miriad of ways.
The phrase "Seek and ye shall find" applies to every belief in a religion and every non-belief in a religion.
The bottom line is there is no way on earth to measure or determine which religion is Truth. To put it bluntly, we must all wait until the moment of death. If the God of our understanding is there, then we will have our Truth. If God isn't there, then none of this will have mattered.
All beliefs have some validity, in the mind of the believer. Truth is this reality of our day to day existance and how we deal with it. If you feel that you must have a religion, find one that rings true to your soul. It is all you can do.
Most everyone has some reservation about the history, dogma, or possibly the current events in their religion, but they still embrace what they believe. Some change their religion because it doesn't ring true anymore. Only your soul will tell you what is true to believe in. The Catholic religion is mine, but I do not agree with all of it's ways or history. I do believe in Jesus as the great teacher, I do believe that Jesus is truly alive in the bread and wine at the moment of consecration during Holy Mass. So, this is my truth. It rings true to my soul. My religion helps me cope with life. My religion inspires me to be useful. My religion inspires me to love. I am joyful in my love of my God. It rings true to my soul.
You and you alone must seek and decide for yourself. I could try to convince you that mine is the truth. Listen, study, pray, contemplate and ask for divine guidance. You will find your own true religion, or belief. None are perfect, for they are all influenced by man down through the ages.
The phrase "Seek and ye shall find" applies to every belief in a religion and every non-belief in a religion.
The bottom line is there is no way on earth to measure or determine which religion is Truth. To put it bluntly, we must all wait until the moment of death. If the God of our understanding is there, then we will have our Truth. If God isn't there, then none of this will have mattered.
All beliefs have some validity, in the mind of the believer. Truth is this reality of our day to day existance and how we deal with it. If you feel that you must have a religion, find one that rings true to your soul. It is all you can do.
Most everyone has some reservation about the history, dogma, or possibly the current events in their religion, but they still embrace what they believe. Some change their religion because it doesn't ring true anymore. Only your soul will tell you what is true to believe in. The Catholic religion is mine, but I do not agree with all of it's ways or history. I do believe in Jesus as the great teacher, I do believe that Jesus is truly alive in the bread and wine at the moment of consecration during Holy Mass. So, this is my truth. It rings true to my soul. My religion helps me cope with life. My religion inspires me to be useful. My religion inspires me to love. I am joyful in my love of my God. It rings true to my soul.
You and you alone must seek and decide for yourself. I could try to convince you that mine is the truth. Listen, study, pray, contemplate and ask for divine guidance. You will find your own true religion, or belief. None are perfect, for they are all influenced by man down through the ages.
lilithu
The Devil's Advocate
Funny that you should post this Spinks, as I am facing a similar dilemma. I've decided that I am ready to give my heart to some unfortunate guy who is yet to be determined. The problem is that I can't think of an objective way in which to determine which person would be most deserving of this burden. Whom should I love? Without being able to rely on objective measures, doesn't my decision become arbitrary, and probably result more from my upbringing/what I'm exposed to in society than from how deserving the person is?Mr_Spinkles said:
I suppose that since none of us can logically determine whom to love then we shouldn't love anyone at all.
linwood
Well-Known Member
Martha your post is excellent!
My only disagreement stems from my own belief system (Wouldn`t it though?)
In my belief there is nothing higher.
I could go on and on about why my life has mattered, and have been known to do so occassionally.
My only disagreement stems from my own belief system (Wouldn`t it though?)
Even if there is no god I know my life has mattered to what I hold most dear.
In my belief there is nothing higher.
I could go on and on about why my life has mattered, and have been known to do so occassionally.
jewscout
Religious Zionist
I agree there is a difference and most forms of theism fall into the "that is all there is" category. Personally for me i'm more of a "and that is the limit of our knowledge...for now" personMr_Spinkles said:
By your standards i suppose i don't knowMr_Spinkles said:
I simply believe...
After all, everyone on this forum and in my life could simply be figments of my imagination...or i could be plugged into the Matrix
"there is no spoon"
Mr Spinkles
Mr
See, this is exactly the miscommunication I'm having with NetDoc, lilithu. There is a big difference between how one feels about someone/something and figuring out whether or not something is true. Allow me to explain...lilithu said:
When you touch a hot stove, the nerves in your hand send your brain a signal "ouch, that's hot!" When you love someone, your body releases chemicals that make you feel euphoric and very attached to that person. To figure out how you feel about a hot stove, you need only to touch it; to figure out how you feel about a person, you need only to get to know them; and to figure out how you feel about Jesus returning some day as the Messiah, you need only to listen to a sermon about it. If you do these things, your mind and body will tell you how you feel about hot stoves, different people, and the idea that Jesus will return as the Messiah. This information isn't subjective, either: it is objectively true that I feel hot stoves are painful; it is objectively true that I feel amazing at the mere thought of Ceridwen; and it is objectively true that, like many rousing stories I've listened to, I feel inspired by sermons about Jesus returning as the Messiah.
The problem, lilithu, is that I'm not asking how I feel about Jesus returning someday as the Messiah; I'm not asking how I feel about there being only one God, and Allah is his name; I'm not asking how I feel about the existence black holes; and I'm not asking how I feel about the existence of Grendel;. I'm asking whether or not the preceeding are true, and I question the idea that my emotional response to the claims has any relationship to their validity.
I suppose this is the fork where the philosophies of the believer and the nonbeliever diverge....the believer interprets a positive emotional response to a claim as verification of its truth...the nonbeliever, on the other hand, is not quite so confident that, because The Odyssey inspires him/her, the events described in The Odyssey actually occurred. It's a distinction between thought and feeling...one that I've intended for some time to start a thread about.
Ah, but you would not limit your own knowledge in regards to the number of gods? Your knowledge includes how many gods there are, right....or does it?jewscout said: