No other Path to Unity but God.

[lukethethird]

I'm all for unity if it's under my God, my religion, and my morals.

 

[WalterTrull]

Oh Jeesh. I probably shouldn't jump in here, but what the hey.
Uhm... We are one. I guess you're talking about the recognition of that. Yeah, recognition is a bummer. My premise is rather simple. How could I be aware of you if we are not one? Happiness? Another story altogether. Just like brussel sprouts.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Tony, the Golden Rule illustrates why men should not create moral rules: It's both insufficient and unnecessary as a moral guide.

For example, should the people of the world have applied the Golden Rule in dealing with Hitler's Germany and the other Axis powers in WW2? Should the Axis powers have been treated with kindness?

Of course not.

Moral rules and laws created by men are unnecessary because we are born gifted with a conscience, an intuitive sense that allows us to discern right from wrong. It was conscience which moved 55 nations, most of them not under attack, to cooperate in stopping the oppressive regimes of Germany, Italy and Japan in WW2.

I see that depends on one's context, the Golden rule is found in all God given scriptures, so the context is Love, virtue and morals.

Christianity
Matthew 7:12
In everything, do unto others what you would have them do to you. For this sums up the law and the prophets.
Buddhism
Udanavarga 5:18
Do not offend others as you would not want to be offended.
Islam
Prophet Muhammad
None of you are true believers until you love for your brother what you love for yourself.
Judaism
Hillel, Talmud, Shabbat 31a
What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. This is the whole Torah; all the rest is commentary.
Confucianism
Analects 15:23
Tzu-kung asked, “Is there one word which can serve as the guiding principle for conduct throughout life?” Confucius said, “It is the word altruism (shu). Do not do to others what you do not want them to do to you.”
Sikhism
Guru Granth Sahib, pg. 1299
I am a stranger to no one; and no one is a stranger to me. Indeed, I am a friend to all.
Taoism
T’ai Shang Kan Ying P’ien, 213–218
Regard your neighbor’s gain as your own gain and your neighbor’s loss as your own loss.
Jainism
Mahavira, Sutrakritanga
One should treat all creatures in the world as one would like to be treated.

This.is also found in the Baha'i Writings.

Regards Tony

 

[joe1776]

I see that depends on one's context, the Golden rule is found in all God given scriptures, so the context is Love, virtue and morals.

Christianity
Matthew 7:12
In everything, do unto others what you would have them do to you. For this sums up the law and the prophets.
Buddhism
Udanavarga 5:18
Do not offend others as you would not want to be offended.
Islam
Prophet Muhammad
None of you are true believers until you love for your brother what you love for yourself.
Judaism
Hillel, Talmud, Shabbat 31a
What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. This is the whole Torah; all the rest is commentary.
Confucianism
Analects 15:23
Tzu-kung asked, “Is there one word which can serve as the guiding principle for conduct throughout life?” Confucius said, “It is the word altruism (shu). Do not do to others what you do not want them to do to you.”
Sikhism
Guru Granth Sahib, pg. 1299
I am a stranger to no one; and no one is a stranger to me. Indeed, I am a friend to all.
Taoism
T’ai Shang Kan Ying P’ien, 213–218
Regard your neighbor’s gain as your own gain and your neighbor’s loss as your own loss.
Jainism
Mahavira, Sutrakritanga
One should treat all creatures in the world as one would like to be treated.

This.is also found in the Baha'i Writings.

Regards Tony

Tony, your list is evidence that the Golden Rule is standard moral advice across many religions, but it doesn't counter my argument that it is insufficient in offering moral guidance because it doesn't deal at all with the bad behavior we might encounter.

And further, you don't counter my argument that the Golden Rule is unnecessary because we humans are gifted with a intuitive conscience, capable of dealing with all the behavior we might encounter, good or bad.

I maintain that conscience is the only moral authority we humans have and the only one we need.

 

[ppp]

Tony, your list is evidence that the Golden Rule is standard moral advice across many religions, but it doesn't counter my argument that it is insufficient in offering moral guidance because it doesn't deal at all with the bad behavior we might encounter.

And further, you don't counter my argument that the Golden Rule is unnecessary because we humans are gifted with a intuitive conscience, capable of dealing with all the behavior we might encounter, good or bad.

I maintain that conscience is the only moral authority we humans have and the only one we need.

While I agree that we have an intuitive conscience, our intuitions are often wrong. We need to exercise reason to understand our goals, and how to reach them while staying within bounds of the moral metrics. The opinions of any gods are, of course, irrelevant.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I maintain that conscience is the only moral authority we humans have and the only one we need.

You are free to maintain what you wish to joe1776 and I wish you always the best of choices.

I see the apex of our conscience can only be found in embracing God given Messengers.

Jesus offered that as being born again from the flesh into the Spirit from God. This Spirit transcends Human consciousness, it can bring out the best in us.

If we do not use this balance, human Consciousness can be lower then the animal. That is why we are a rational soul.

Regards Tony

 

[joe1776]

While I agree that we have an intuitive conscience, our intuitions are often wrong. We need to exercise reason to understand our goals, and how to reach them while staying within bounds of the moral metrics. The opinions of any gods are, of course, irrelevant.

I regard conscience as infallible simply because its the only moral authority we have. We can't establish reason as a higher authority because everything we know about morality, we learned from those feelings that we refer to as conscience.

All knowledge begins with the senses. We couldn't see, hear, taste or smell the difference between right and wrong. So, David Hume was right, we must have felt it.

 

[ppp]

You are free to maintain what you wish to joe1776 and I wish you always the best of choices.

I see the apex of our conscience can only be found in embracing God given Messengers.

Jesus offered that as being born again from the flesh into the Spirit from God. This Spirit transcends Human consciousness, it can bring out the best in us.

If we do not use this balance, human Consciousness can be lower then the animal. That is why we are a rational soul.

Regards Tony

I see no practical evidence that embracing what you call "God given Messengers" results in more moral behaviors.

 

[ppp]

I regard conscience as infallible simply because its the only moral authority we have. We can't establish reason as a higher authority because everything we know about morality, we learned from those feelings that we refer to as conscience.

All knowledge begins with the senses. We couldn't see, hear, taste or smell the difference between right and wrong. So, we must have felt it.

I don't see how this can be true. It seems like you are saying that every action that you think is moral is necessarily moral. Am I misunderstanding?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I see no practical evidence that embracing what you call "God given Messengers" results in more moral behaviors.

Truth is relative to our chosen state of our conscience.

A Rational mind is a gift humans share.

RegardsTony

 

[ppp]

Truth is relative to our chosen state of our conscience.

A Rational mind is a gift humans share.

RegardsTony

No.

 

[joe1776]

I don't see how this can be true. It seems like you are saying that every action that you think is moral is necessarily moral. Am I misunderstanding?

You are misunderstanding. Start with a specific set of facts in a moral situation: Harry, in a fit of rage, kills his wife Sally. You immediately FELT that this is a wrongful act.

Now, a new set of facts: Harry, in a fit of rage attacks his wife Sally. but Sally manages to kill Harry. You didn't have the same feeling of wrongness. From this you deduce that the act is not wrongful.

These judgments emerge immediately from the unconscious even though there are an almost infinite number of factual situations that might involve killing.

Over the last 20 years, social scientists have agreed on the intuitive nature of moral judgments but on not much else about them..

 

[ppp]

You are misunderstanding. Start with a specific set of facts in a moral situation: Harry, in a fit of rage, kills his wife Sally. You immediately FELT that this is a wrongful act.

Now, a new set of facts: Harry, in a fit of rage attacks his wife Sally. but Sally manages to kill Harry. You didn't have the same feeling of wrongness. From this you deduce that the act is not wrongful.

These judgments emerge immediately from the unconscious even though there are an almost infinite number of factual situations that might involve killing.

Over the last 20 years, social scientists have agreed on the intuitive nature of moral judgments but on not much else about them..

That just means that those intuitions exist. That does not make them authoritative. Where does the authoritative part come from?

There are people who would say that Harry's actions were justified if rage was because he caught Sally having sex with Bob. Just because I have a sense of wrongness about it does not mean that everyone does.

 

[Revoltingest]

You are free to maintain what you wish to joe1776 and I wish you always the best of choices.

I see the apex of our conscience can only be found in embracing God given Messengers.

Jesus offered that as being born again from the flesh into the Spirit from God. This Spirit transcends Human consciousness, it can bring out the best in us.

If we do not use this balance, human Consciousness can be lower then the animal. That is why we are a rational soul.

Regards Tony

I've no problem being just an animal.
And we are not alone being rational.
But obviously, not all humans are rational.

 

[joe1776]

That just means that those intuitions exist. That does not make them authoritative. Where does the authoritative part come from?

I explained that earlier: I regard conscience as infallible simply because its the only moral authority we have. We can't establish reason as a higher authority because everything we know about morality, we learned from those feelings that we refer to as conscience.

There are people who would say that Harry's actions were justified if rage was because he caught Sally having sex with Bob. Just because I have a sense of wrongness about it does not mean that everyone does.

You are now introducing the problem of bias which affects all judgments whether intuitive or reasoned. That's why Harry's act would be judged by the collective conscience of an unbiased jury in courtrooms in most nations of the world.

 

[ppp]

I explained that earlier: I regard conscience as infallible simply because its the only moral authority we have. We can't establish reason as a higher authority because everything we know about morality, we learned from those feelings that we refer to as conscience.

The thing is I am not understanding why you are using the term authority here. My intuitive reactions are not authorities to my actions. My intuitions inform my decisions and actions, but they do not dictate them. My intuitions can be wrong.

Maybe I should ask what you think morality is? More along the moral metrics of the ethologists? Or Harris' Moral Landscape? Or something else entirely? Personally, I lean towards the moral metrics of fairness, empathy, reciprocation, cooperation, etc.

You are now introducing the problem of bias which affects all judgments whether intuitive or reasoned. That's why Harry's act would be judged by the collective conscience of an unbiased jury in courtrooms in most nations of the world.

I didn't introduce biases. They were already there. Everyone has biases; including those with judgments, intuitive or reasoned, that you agree with. Are you under the impression that my intuition that it was wrong for Harry to kill Sally was somehow free of bias? Hope not. That would be special pleading.

From the code of Hammurabi up thru 19th century America, penal codes have made provisions for killing an adulterous wife. Rarely the husband. The last state to overturn such a law was Georgia in the late 70s. And the Supreme Court had to force them to do it. Philippine and Saudi law still both allow it. In the US we still give it a wink and a nudge under the guise of diminished capacity and Jury Nullification. I think a large portion of the human race, past and present, do not agree with us on the matter.

 

[CG Didymus]

Many are working towards that peace, it unfolds when we join in.

Elimination of all predudices.
Elimination of extremes of wealth and poverty.
Universal education for all people.

They are some of the solutions needed.

Regards Tony

Lots of people join movements. I asked you about the young people that are protesting gun violence and climate change and The Black Lives Matter protests. Are Baha'is in the forefront of these movements? If not, are they supporting those movements?

 

[CG Didymus]

Obviously, I would oppose that.


And I do not believe that god is a real thing. Nor have I seen any religious system or moral standards that are not in need of improvement.


Ick.

People that believe that God has given their prophet the laws and a governing system that will unite the world? What could go wrong?

 

[ppp]

People that believe that God has given their prophet the laws and a governing system that will unite the world? What could go wrong?

Can you say, totalitarian theocracy?

 

[F1fan]

You are free to maintain what you wish to joe1776 and I wish you always the best of choices.

I see the apex of our conscience can only be found in embracing God given Messengers.

What gives you authority over what Joe sees for himself? This is spiritual bullying. You telling someone that they are deficient and you have a solution for them. This is why we can't religious people if they were in a position of power.

Jesus offered that as being born again from the flesh into the Spirit from God. This Spirit transcends Human consciousness, it can bring out the best in us.

Yet it fails to allow some to see their own weakness.

If we do not use this balance, human Consciousness can be lower then the animal. That is why we are a rational soul.

Arguably consciousness is an animal trait. There's no need to assign higher or lower to it. And if we are going to acknowledge that we humans are rational, we'd better be sure we have adequate skill learned about reasonings so we can use it to make more true and real conclusions. And let's note, belief in any god is not a rational conclusion.