Another Christian Dilemma

[Epic Beard Man]

There may be a few valuable philosophical ideas in Islam. I'm not familiar enough with the religion to know one way or another. What I do know about a literal interpretation of the Qur'an is that it promotes violence and misogyny, which is obviously a serious problem. Besides, why can't we just go directly to Socrates and Aristotle if we want to study their ways of thinking?

The Bible promotes slavery, misogyny, elements of justifying racism etc those were different times then and what?

 

[Epic Beard Man]

I suppose a lot of maybe could be tossed around on this subject. Why us? Maybe we were the most pitiful life form and we needed the help.

I may think you’re on to something

 

[Epic Beard Man]

It does basically begin with anthropocentric by declaring we are "made in the likeness and image" of god and stating we are above the rest of the natural world.

Right....

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I may think you’re on to something

After all, what did ameobas ever do wro g?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Unity in what sense, their message?

Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad all brought a message from God. They exhorted their peoples to worship One God and to follow His Commandments. In that sense they were united in their origin, the Unknowable Essence we call God. They were united in their Central Teachings, to know and worship God.

The language and emphasis of each Divine Revelation appears divergent and contradictory due to their being revealed over a span of two thousand years. They each emerged out of three very different cultures, each with unique historic challenges, to peoples of varied capacity.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Moses was the Friend of God. Jesus the Son of God. Muhummad the Messenger of God. Each designation represents how they reflect a distinct and exalted character above ordinary men.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad all brought a message from God. They exhorted their peoples to worship One God and to follow His Commandments. In that sense they were united in their origin, the Unknowable Essence we call God. They were united in their Central Teachings, to know and worship God.

The language and emphasis of each Divine Revelation appears divergent and contradictory due to their being revealed over a span of two thousand years. They each emerged out of three very different cultures, each with unique historic challenges, to peoples of varied capacity.

A messenger is perceived different than being perceived as a son.

 

[Segev Moran]

No more absurd than thinking God was in the form of a bush on fire.

Lol. Agreed.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

The Bible promotes slavery, misogyny, elements of justifying racism etc those were different times then and what?

Agreed that the bible also promotes these things. I'm not a fan of the bible either.

 

[Deeje]

Agreed that the bible also promotes these things. I'm not a fan of the bible either.

Where does the Bible promote slavery, misogyny, elements of justifying racism? In the context of the times and customs and standards of the day, humans may have promoted these things but God never did. He adjusted his laws to serve his nation at that time, in that culture. Transfer them over into today's society and they would be ridiculous.
But God's laws are based on principles, which transcend all times and cultures.
Tell me what employee is not a "slave" to their boss and their job?
Tell me how feminism hasn't made females into the opposite of what they were created to do? The woman was not created to serve the man, but to serve creation alongside of him. She is created as a complement, not as a competitor. Each has specified roles that humans corrupted. Headship ended up like dictatorship...that is not what God created.
And racism, usually had more to do with religion in those times rather than just skin color.

 

[Deeje]

A messenger is perceived different than being perceived as a son.

Why can't the son also be a messenger? See the parable Jesus gave in Matthew 21:33-41.
If the son is "sent", then he becomes a messenger.

 

[Deeje]

Well, he was a human so one way or another he was begotten.

Any living thing that is "begotten" has to have a "begetter".....Jesus in his pre-human existence was a spirit creature, the very first and only creation of his Father, so in that sense he is "only" begotten.

Colossians 1:13-17....."He rescued us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all things were made to exist".

Revelation 3:14 also calls Jesus "the beginning of God's creation".

If Jesus' creation pre-dates all other creation, then he existed before everything else.

In the earliest gospel, Mark, he's an ordinary human until he's baptized by John, at which point God adopts him as God's son: Mark 1:10 [...] he saw the heavens opened and the Spirit descending upon him like a dove 11 and a voice came from heaven, 'Thou art my beloved Son: with thee I am well pleased'. As Acts 13:33 expressly confirms, this refers to Psalm 2:7 I will tell you of the decree of the Lord: / He said to me, "You are my son, today I have begotten you". The same idea is in Psalm 89:26-27 and in 2 Samuel 7:14 (all regarding King David).

So first up, Jesus is the 'begotten' son of Yahweh only in metaphor. His Y chromosome is not from Yahweh.

Well I have to somewhat agree with that. I do not believe that Jesus carried a single chromosome from anyone but YHWH. His lifeforce (from his former existence) was transferred to the womb of a virgin because the child born had to be without the defect of sin in order to pay the "ransom". A ransom is the price demanded for the release of a captive. The price in this case was a perfect life that had to come from outside the now defective human race.

In Luke expressly and in Matthew implicitly, Jesus' Y chromosome is indeed from Yahweh. (This accords with Greek tradition where gods have children by copulation with mortals all the time.)

I believe that Greek mythology is based on actual events in connection with the flood of Noah's day.
It is said that "sons of God" noticed the good-looking daughters of men and materialized human bodies in order to indulge the desires of the flesh. It says that they took "all whom they chose" and even produced a hybrid offspring that were freakishly huge and violent in disposition. These "Nephilim" were "human" but produced by the illegitimate coupling of humans and angels. God destroyed every last one of them because they did not have a right to exist. By flooding the earth, God then forced their errant fathers back to the spirit realm, where he dealt with them by preventing them from materializing ever again.

When scientists clone an animal, they remove all genetic information from the egg and introduce DNA from the donor who can then produce offspring that is unrelated to her. If humans can do this, how easy is it for God to transfer the lifeforce of his son into a human egg with all defective human DNA removed?

Jesus was related to Mary and Joseph but not in any normal way. They were chosen for the role of his earthly parents, but he was not genetically related to either of them. His DNA was sin free, allowing him to pay the debt that enslaved Adam's children.

 

[Dawnofhope]

A messenger is perceived different than being perceived as a son.

The language reflects the close association between the Hebrew peoples and their God over Millennia starting with Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses and then culminating with Jesus the Son of God. The synoptic gospels were closely aligned to the Hebrew Bible and then the gospel of John was the last to be written. The designations Son of man, Son of David, and Son of God can all be referenced to Jewish Sacred texts.

In contrast Muhammad united a disparate group of tribes in Arabia. They had been pagans and there was no close history unlike their Hebrew counterparts.

Of course the language was different but each brought a new Revelation from God.

 

[Deeje]

Since I am not a believer in unicorns, I will take the liberty of removing reference to it in your quotes and substitute "God" in bracket, since this is who I am speaking about.....

Here are some important questions:
We know the universe is expanding infinitely, there are billions of planets. [God] being the creator of the universe, why of all the planets that exist and the possible life forms that are more ancient than human beings, why is [God’s] only son a human?

If you read my previous posts I have explained this in detail....FWIW.

Why would [God] choose a human and not some other life form like an amoeba, germ, virus, cell or atom? What is so important about being a human among all the possible creatures in the universe why choose a human being? Hmm, maybe because [God] creates humans in his image, that's the reason.

If you understand why humans were created with God's qualities and moral attributes, you will see why he appointed them to be caretakers as his representatives on this earth. The vastness of the universe and the speck that is our earth helps us to understand the scope of God's intentions when he created it. I believe we are in the very early stages of a much bigger project. This is where God irons out all the 'bugs' that the misuse of free will would introduce. We still have a thousand years to go before God can begin implementing the rest of his purpose for creation.

Why would he choose son instead of daugther? What is so important being a son? Hmm, maybe because son is stronger than daughter, daughter is weak or have other responsibility Because [God] says so.

God created the man as head of his family.....his wife was to be a complement of him, their roles combining to create harmony and balance in the family unit. She was not created to compete for leadership, but to provide what her husband did not...and vice versa in raising well balanced children. We all know how important role models are....today they are all messed up and people are confused and not happy because there is no balance.

Sons were important in Jewish society because sons often had to care for their mother and siblings when a family head died...and they died earlier than women apparently in Bible times (even as they often do today). There were many widows, including Mary where Jesus, as the firstborn, was obligated to care for her. When he was dying, he entrusted her care to the apostle John, even though he had younger brothers...they were not yet believers. He considered her spiritual welfare to be more important than just her physical care.

Why would he choose a son who likes to drink wine instead a son who prefer apple juice? What is so important about wine? Hmm, maybe that's because wine is very holy, wine is holy because [God] says so.

Why would he choose a son who prefer grape wine instead a son who prefer whisky? What is so important about grape wine?

Why would he choose a son who live in village A instead a son who live in village B?
What is so important about village B?

It was prophesied hundreds of years before he was born, that he would be born in "Bethlehem Ephrathah", which is the same town that King David was born in. It was part of his credentials as Messiah that he would be born in that specific town....and considering that Mary and Joseph were not residents of that place but journeyed there due to a decree of Caesar to get registered, God saw to it that the prophesy was fulfilled.

Why would he choose a son who likes to collecting stamps instead a son who prefer jogging? What is so important about collecting stamps?

Now you are just being ridiculous....

Be careful who you mock. (Galatians 6:7)

 

[blü 2]

Any living thing that is "begotten" has to have a "begetter".....Jesus in his pre-human existence was a spirit creature, the very first and only creation of his Father, so in that sense he is "only" begotten.

That view is supported by Paul (in his 'kenosis hymn') and some passages in John. It's contradicted in Mark (the first gospel), where Jesus is simply a human who at a mature age is baptized by John and adopted by Yahweh in a manner following Tanakh precedent.

Bear in mind with Paul that he never met the living Jesus (given there was one to meet) and that he states expressly (Galatians 1:11+) that everything he tells you about Jesus comes out of his own head.

If Jesus' creation pre-dates all other creation, then he existed before everything else.

Except Yahweh, the god Jesus worships and whose servant he is.

I do not believe that Jesus carried a single chromosome from anyone but YHWH. His lifeforce (from his former existence) was transferred to the womb of a virgin because the child born had to be without the defect of sin in order to pay the "ransom".

Medically, the Mark version avoids a great many peculiar questions about chromosomes. If we use Occam's razor, it wins easily.

A ransom is the price demanded for the release of a captive. The price in this case was a perfect life that had to come from outside the now defective human race.

The Fall was not invented till centuries after the Garden story, and we have Ezekiel 18 to tell us again and again that sin can't be inherited (eg 20 The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.)

So I've never understood what the ransom is supposed to be for. Nor, even were a case for 'original sin' possible, why a blood sacrifice to God by God of his own son could possibly be necessary when the whole issue would be resolved with one snap of those omnipotent fingers. Human sacrifice is bronze age mentality, to be noted as ancient barbarism, not as anything admirable.

 

[dfnj]

Considering scientific evidence states that the universe is expanding infinitely (or to infinity) and considering there are perhaps billions of planets, God being the ruler of the universe why of all the planets that exist and the possible life forms that are more ancient than human beings why is God’s “only son” a human?

All things considered if we took a more logical approach at what is more likely than not, why would God choose a human and not some other life form like an amoeba? What is so important about being a human among all the possible creatures in the universe why choose a human being?

God's only son is human because the word God is in human language. I'm sure there are other life forms who believe in God, have their own word for God, and have their own stories about God. An omnipotent God can be in more places at once. An omnipotent God can be an infinite number of things to and infinite number of species.

Why would you think an omnipotent God would NOT hold the human race in the highest possible esteem. My faith is in an omnipotent God of unconditional love who sees each of us as the most sacred thing to ever have existed in all of creation.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Where does the Bible promote slavery, misogyny, elements of justifying racism? In the context of the times and customs and standards of the day, humans may have promoted these things but God never did. He adjusted his laws to serve his nation at that time, in that culture. Transfer them over into today's society and they would be ridiculous.
But God's laws are based on principles, which transcend all times and cultures.
Tell me what employee is not a "slave" to their boss and their job?
Tell me how feminism hasn't made females into the opposite of what they were created to do? The woman was not created to serve the man, but to serve creation alongside of him. She is created as a complement, not as a competitor. Each has specified roles that humans corrupted. Headship ended up like dictatorship...that is not what God created.
And racism, usually had more to do with religion in those times rather than just skin color.

But aren't the authors of the Bible guided by divine providence?

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Why can't the son also be a messenger? See the parable Jesus gave in Matthew 21:33-41.
If the son is "sent", then he becomes a messenger.

In the Judeo-Christian and Islamic narrative all messengers are the same with the same message, that being said Jesus had no special title other than messiah. So his "Sonship" is really not of value if you compare his mission to others (if you take away the Pauline Christian/Nincene Creed narrative).

 

[Deeje]

But aren't the authors of the Bible guided by divine providence?

Well, their thoughts were inspired by God's spirit, but what does that have to do with the culture of the times? We operate by the principles upon which those laws and practices were based, which transcend all times and cultures.

In the Judeo-Christian and Islamic narrative all messengers are the same with the same message, that being said Jesus had no special title other than messiah. So his "Sonship" is really not of value if you compare his mission to others (if you take away the Pauline Christian/Nincene Creed narrative).

Jesus was the only prophet to claim to be the son of God. Those attending his baptism heard God's voice acknowledging Jesus as his son and bestowing his approval.

In the parable posted previously, the son and heir was sent last but the cultivators murdered him. The owner of the vineyard assumed that the cultivators would respect his son. The value of Jesus' sonship is certainly highlighted in the narrative.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Well, their thoughts were inspired by God's spirit, but what does that have to do with the culture of the times?

The spirit of God could have inspired things such as:
Thou shalt not own slaves.
Thou shalt honor men and women as equals.
Thou shalt respect thy neighbor.
Thou shalt not hit children.