The implications of God's existence or lack thereof

[dfnj]

Again, that is certainly an interesting perspective. Now let me explain how I look at this. I believe God is All-Knowing, All-Powerful and All-Wise. God does not have a purpose for existing; God simply exists and always has existed.

I can't disagree with the idea God does not have purpose because God is omnipotent. It's really a question of semantics with regards to time.

However, God does have a function, and that function is to keep the universe going, God having brought it into existence. If for one moment God’s mercy and grace were to be withheld from the world, it would completely perish. That mercy and grace is bestowed upon mankind by means of the Messengers that God sends with the Holy Spirit and a “message” mankind needs to evolve spiritually and materially. This of course is just my belief.

I don't see anything wrong with your belief. The answers to these questions are articles of faith. There are no right or provable answers.

I've often wondered about God's roll in the Universe. There are many pantheistic type religions or ways of thinking about God. And I've argued since God is omnipotent then God could easily be both types of God at once, that is, pantheistic and anthropomorphic or abrahamic type God. I think it is an interesting question as to what God's function might be in the defining or executing the laws of physics.

I've often have trouble using words "mercy and grace" in describing God because of its anthropomorphic projection over God. It just seems to me God is many time indifferent to the affairs of man. There is just so much unnecessary evil in the World and nature is relentless in abiding by the laws of physics. I think the divine exists but superstition has to be taken into account.

Our purpose for existing is to know and love God. That is accomplished by living according to the will of God by living according to what has been revealed by God to humanity. Many people are living this without even being part of any religion because these eternal spiritual verities have been in the world since the beginning of time.

Interpreting just what exactly is the "will of God" can be easily used to manipulate people. Knowing that something revealed to humanity came from God as opposed to just men is very important. Religion is a great source of power and influence in the World. Not everyone is altruistic in their motives. Evil is always where you least expect it. I don't want to sound like I'm invalidating your point of view it is just that I'm am very suspicious when it comes to what is revealed to me and why.

I'm not sure anyone can really "know" God beyond the limitations of knowing oneself.

Again, that is certainly an interesting perspective. Now let me explain how I look at this. I do not believe God has any limitations but I believe in a personal God that is conscious of His creation, so it is possible that God shares our experiences of joy and sorrow, so whatever makes us enthusiastic might make God enthusiastic. Indeed, I believe that God is closer to us than our life vein so God knows us better than we know our own selves.

It's very hard to know what God knows. As I've said God seems so indifferent to the affairs of man. I have not seen God bellowing out commands from the sky scolding someone for acting immorally. I have never seen anything supernatural happen before my eyes. Every time I drop something it hits the ground. Every time! Nature seems mindlessly relentless in executing the laws of physics perfectly. In terms of people, I've seen some people unexpectedly act with compassion which to me felt like a miracle.

So since God seems so indifferent, I thought about what is important to God. And since an omnipotent God needs absolutely nothing from us, what does any of what we do matter to God? As far as I can tell there is no provable answer to this question. To answer the question it has to be an article of faith as to what is the correct answer.

Thanks. You are right that there is no “right answer.”

Overall all I thought your answers were fine and really thought out. Not many people take the time.

I also believe that we are fulfilling God's purpose by participating in God's creation.

I know you are into a personal God. But I tend to think helping others to have enthusiasm in participating in God's creation is important too even though it's a little less personal in focus.

On a day-to-day basis we all have to negotiate the material world and if we are believers we have to balance the more mundane tasks with our spiritual needs and aspirations. Those are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Maybe part of my struggle is that I simply enjoy some activities more than others and the others tend to get left by the wayside. However, they will get done eventually. It’s just money I stand to lose but luckily I have enough of it.

Material world is always a battle. It's just mind boggling to me with all our technology and manufacturing automation that we have so many people living in poverty. I just don't understand how everyone is so accepting of our conditions. Maybe someday love will get a leg up on hate for a change.

There is certainly some truth to that. I think we also tend to criticize or even hate other people because they have a character trait or behavior we do not respect, but since we have the propensity to also have it, it reminds us of what we could become. That makes us angry because they remind us of what we could become.

But it is not just that. I think there can be a genuine criticism or anger based upon something we see in other people we do not consider moral behavior or hypocrisy. Sometimes criticisms are justified but it is rarely appropriate to express them towards others unless a real cruelty or injustice has been perpetrated.

I've wrestled with the idea of "genuine criticism" with "you only criticize..." sentence. My current thinking is there are always ways of being in relationship that will make the other person a better person. People do not like to be criticized. But there are ways you can interact with people that are not based on criticisms that will transform their consciousness. And in doing so, maybe the other person will no longer require the original criticisms. I have found most people become hardened in their bad behaviors in response to criticism. It's a very tricky tight rope to walk.

 

[Thief]

I am not sure what you mean by applied reasoning. I think we have to apply our reasoning, but the problem as I see it is that everyone reasons differently, so that results in many different ideas about what is ethical and no standard that can bring people together.

I like it
but will offer....

Do unto others as you would have it do unto you
(standard)

 

[Thief]

If we somehow know that such a form is willing and able to establish constructive guidelines for us, is that what you mean?

Sure. But that is quite a restraining parameter.

There is also the matter of what would constitute such a greater form of life. I take it that you don't mean blue whales, viruses or cockroaches.


There is not. Laws have little more than an accidental, fleeting acquaintance of ethics, which are a far more substantial and dynamic field than law itself.

see previous post

 

[Thief]

May I ask what religion you were before you gave up religion?

As I said, about five years ago I decided to give God and my religion another chance. As far as religion goes, I am not really a participant in the organized religion but I am a believer in the teachings. As far as God goes that is a work in progress.

Most of my spiritual journey has taken place on forums, reading and writing. Like you, I am developing my relationship to God through every post I make. Religious observances such as prayer and meditation and reading scriptures are supposed to get people close to God but reading and posting seems to work better for me.

I lived with my grandparents for a while.....Methodist
I lived with my mother for a while.....Roman Catholic
I lived with my Dad and stepmother for a while.....Southern Calvary Bapist

almost became a Catholic priest......
but only two openings at the seminary and twelve candidates showed up
apparently there are at least two other people holier than me

no hard feelings

I broke from religion altogether as I kept on reading scripture
seems there is a quote that takes away each of the dogmatic methods

so.....
I pray alone
I do unto others with as much grace as I can muster (which is a test in it's own rite)

and I hope to stand well before God and heaven after my last breath

 

[Quintessence]

I am not that familiar with the other Abrahamic religions so I do not really know exactly what they teach. In my religion, the Baha’i Faith, there really is no disconnect between God, the material world, and happiness like there as there might be in the other Abrahamic religions; at least not according to what Baha’is believe. However, I am kind of different than most Baha’is, so I see the disconnect where other Baha’is do not seem to see it. Let me explain and in so doing I want to draw a parallel between what Jesus said and what Baha’u’llah (the Prophet Founder of the Baha’i Faith) wrote.

This was an interesting read; thanks for the illustration! I can see how it'd be challenging to wrestle with seemingly contradictory statements in one's sacred texts.

~~ Can you explain why there is no disconnect for you? Maybe I can learn something I need to know.

I don't think what works for me would work for you, but I'll describe anyway. In terms of general philosophy, I reject the common Western notion of substance dualism, which states there are two substances, matter and spirit, that are separate. Theologically, that translates into rejecting that nature/reality and gods are distinct from each other; for me, the gods are the various aspects of nature/reality. That means I see myself as experiencing and relating to the gods on a daily basis because they are everything and all around me. My challenge is to be mindful of the divinity of things around me.

And for that, it doesn't have to be big things. Most of the time it's little things. Today so far, being mindful of the gods has been saying hello to Squirrel on the way into the office and giving thanks to Snow for delivering beautiful weather to us this morning.

I am trying to go on a journey, but I have not even gotten out of the door.

Nah, you've gotten out the door. I think that you might be being a bit too hard on yourself and what you've accomplished so far.

And that is precisely what I meant when I asked about “implications.” I was looking for some feedback as to how belief in God (or gods) plays out or how non-belief in a God (or gods) play out for nonbelievers). What do people DO with beliefs and non-beliefs?

My brain translates this to asking "how do people worship their gods?" Worship looks different for various traditions, for sure. I came up with a good list of that somewhere a few years back... I can dig it up to refresh my memory and maybe post some of that up here if it seems relevant.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

Welcome to RF and thank you for raising the question of God in our lives.

I listened to a debate recently between Richard Dawkins and atheist and John Lennox a Christian.

I was struck by how much I could learn from the insights of both atheists and Christians.

My own personal journey is having grown up with Christianity and agnosticism, I became a Baha'i after a 5 year search at age 26. That was nearly 28 years ago. During that time I expored Buddhism and Hinduism as well as the Christain Faith.

In regards my spiritual life the practices are simple. A short obligatory prayer recited once a day, reciting from sacred writings morning and evening, saying the greatest name of God, studying the writings of my religion and trying each day to put it into practice, sharing the little I know with others, and assisting in the life of my community through my work, family, and faith community.

Great to have you here.

I have watched the Dawkins-Lennox debate. Dawkins utterly dominated as per usual.

 

[LuisDantas]

see previous post

Which one?

 

[Lyndon]

the previous one, duh!!

 

[LuisDantas]

#102?

How does it connect to the subject matter at hand? It is not exactly a clarification.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I have watched the Dawkins-Lennox debate. Dawkins utterly dominated as per usual.

Although I am neither an Atheist or Christian, I think John Lennox holds his own. Who performs the best in a debate can dependant on what ideas resonate and which ones grate. If Christianity grates, then sure...Dawkins is the winner.

 

[Windwalker]

I am more interested in discussing God and all the implications of God’s existence or lack thereof, than in discussing religions and their beliefs and doctrines.

This is a good thing, since religions are in essence just structural supports around the building, and not the building itself. To argue religions is like getting hung up on arguing which manufacturer and type of scaffolding is better for this or that task, when the focus should be on building the building, or the spiritual path.

as I look around in American society it sure does not seem as if most people are very focused on God. Rather, the focus seems to be on the material world and personal happiness.

The funny thing about this is they actually are focused on God, as they seek to find truth and meaning in their lives. What materialism is is a substitute, a fill-in, a placeholder for what they are seeking for. But the same impulse is at play. It's just that materialism promises fulfillment that appears an easier path than one dying to one's own desires in order to find God.

This bothers me a lot, maybe more than it should, but I feel very much alone because I have no interest in those things anymore.

That's a good sign.

I have been a member of my religion for 47 years but I have either ignored God or was angry at God for most of that time.

Might I make a suggestion that you could substitute the word "myself" for "God" above and that would probably be more accurate? People blame God when their own personal expectations fail to materialize the way they hope they would, stemming out of their own imaginations of what would make them truly fulfilled in life. Being angry at God is a projection of our ego's failing us when it comes to finding peace and resolution to life's biggest questions. So.... no surprise there.

Then about five years ago I came to a turning point. I decided I needed to do something about my lack of relationship with God

What changed? Were you finding what you were doing wasn't working and you became willing to give up trying all of that?

and I also decided I wanted to try to do something with my religion. So I embarked upon a journey to learn what I had never known about my religion when I first joined.

The purpose of this for many is to find some way to try to relate themselves to something that transcends themselves, that scaffolding to climb on to work on your building. The thing about this though is that a certain point, in order to truly find the Transcendent, the scaffolding itself has to transcended. Often times people become so attached to and dependent the religion, that they cannot see the building underneath the scaffolding. In other words, like materialism, religion becomes a substitute for God as well.

Concurrently, I have been trying to figure out what to do about my personal relationship with God, or should I say a lack thereof. This continues to be a matter of great concern, especially how to worship God, which to me means loving God.

Again, what is it in yourself that is making this a concern? I would focus on that concern itself as holding the keys.

It has now been five years since I started what I consider a spiritual journey, and my whole perspective on life has changed as a result of putting my entire focus on my religion and God. Although I know I am a lot happier now than ever before in my life, I have mixed feelings about this because I feel very much alone on this journey of mine.

The path to God is a solitary path. No one but you passes through that door with you. In the end, you die alone. And that's where a final release from the things of the world happens. You alone have to walk into that place. You alone will then rise from it. Religion may help point you to that door, but it, like everything else ends up being left on the floor as you strip fully naked and enter alone into the Ocean.

Moreover, sometimes I question what I am doing when I look around and see other people involved in the material world, and they seem so happy with the things they enjoy.

It sounds like you're in a place of transitioning. At a certain point, you can look around and see all that, and understand it from a place of having been there yourself before and see with the eyes of empathy, the eyes of non-judgement.

I have spiritual happiness but my material life is a constant struggle, partly because many material world duties have not been tended to as I feel they should be since there are only so many hours in a day.

At a certain point, doing the dishes and the laundry, mowing the lawn, working your job, etc, are all expressions of the spiritual path itself. When you are transitioning, they appear to be distractions. Try approaching this things as all a worship of God. It's really just a perceptual shift, and letting go of your expectations of what you think God should look like and be experienced like by you.

But which is more important, God or the material world?

Both are. God is not separate from Creation. You can find God in the material world as well.

"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they reveal knowledge. They have no speech, they use no words; no sound is heard from them. Yet their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world". ​

According to my religion, “the world is like the vapor in a desert, which the thirsty dreameth to be water and striveth after it with all his might, until when he cometh unto it, he findeth it to be mere illusion.” Gleanings, p. 328 I truly believe that and that is how I got myself on this spiritual journey. Now I cannot seem to get my old life back, but why would I want to?

This is true, but best understood as hanging onto the ideal that you can find ultimate fulfillment through these things, alone. It seems paradoxical to say you both cannot find God by seeking the things of the world, but that you can find God through the world. You are in the world, but not of the world. You shouldn't seek to escape this life, but to find Life in all things by seeking Life itself, for its own Sake. Then you find your true Self, and see God in this world.

 

[Prometheus85]

I am new to this forum. I came here about 10 days ago. This will be the first thread I post.

I notice that people talk a lot about religion but I have not seen many threads about God. I belong to a religion but I am more interested in discussing God and all the implications of God’s existence or lack thereof, than in discussing religions and their beliefs and doctrines.

What are the implications of God's existence or lack thereof? Why does it matter if we believe in God?

According to my religion we were created to know and worship God. I sure do not know the inner thoughts and feelings of anyone except myself and those closest to me who have shared those, but as I look around in American society it sure does not seem as if most people are very focused on God. Rather, the focus seems to be on the material world and personal happiness. This bothers me a lot, maybe more than it should, but I feel very much alone because I have no interest in those things anymore.

I have been a member of my religion for 47 years but I have either ignored God or was angry at God for most of that time. I rarely participated in any religious activities, although I tried to follow the teachings and laws of my religion. Then about five years ago I came to a turning point. I decided I needed to do something about my lack of relationship with God and I also decided I wanted to try to do something with my religion. So I embarked upon a journey to learn what I had never known about my religion when I first joined. I have learned so much, mostly by posting on various forums and responding to questions posed to me which required I do a lot of reading and explaining.

Concurrently, I have been trying to figure out what to do about my personal relationship with God, or should I say a lack thereof. This continues to be a matter of great concern, especially how to worship God, which to me means loving God.

It has now been five years since I started what I consider a spiritual journey, and my whole perspective on life has changed as a result of putting my entire focus on my religion and God. Although I know I am a lot happier now than ever before in my life, I have mixed feelings about this because I feel very much alone on this journey of mine. Moreover, sometimes I question what I am doing when I look around and see other people involved in the material world, and they seem so happy with the things they enjoy.

I have spiritual happiness but my material life is a constant struggle, partly because many material world duties have not been tended to as I feel they should be since there are only so many hours in a day. But which is more important, God or the material world? According to my religion, “the world is like the vapor in a desert, which the thirsty dreameth to be water and striveth after it with all his might, until when he cometh unto it, he findeth it to be mere illusion.” Gleanings, p. 328 I truly believe that and that is how I got myself on this spiritual journey. Now I cannot seem to get my old life back, but why would I want to?

I am new to this forum. I came here about 10 days ago. This will be the first thread I post.

I notice that people talk a lot about religion but I have not seen many threads about God. I belong to a religion but I am more interested in discussing God and all the implications of God’s existence or lack thereof, than in discussing religions and their beliefs and doctrines.

What are the implications of God's existence or lack thereof? Why does it matter if we believe in God?

According to my religion we were created to know and worship God. I sure do not know the inner thoughts and feelings of anyone except myself and those closest to me who have shared those, but as I look around in American society it sure does not seem as if most people are very focused on God. Rather, the focus seems to be on the material world and personal happiness. This bothers me a lot, maybe more than it should, but I feel very much alone because I have no interest in those things anymore.

I have been a member of my religion for 47 years but I have either ignored God or was angry at God for most of that time. I rarely participated in any religious activities, although I tried to follow the teachings and laws of my religion. Then about five years ago I came to a turning point. I decided I needed to do something about my lack of relationship with God and I also decided I wanted to try to do something with my religion. So I embarked upon a journey to learn what I had never known about my religion when I first joined. I have learned so much, mostly by posting on various forums and responding to questions posed to me which required I do a lot of reading and explaining.

Concurrently, I have been trying to figure out what to do about my personal relationship with God, or should I say a lack thereof. This continues to be a matter of great concern, especially how to worship God, which to me means loving God.

It has now been five years since I started what I consider a spiritual journey, and my whole perspective on life has changed as a result of putting my entire focus on my religion and God. Although I know I am a lot happier now than ever before in my life, I have mixed feelings about this because I feel very much alone on this journey of mine. Moreover, sometimes I question what I am doing when I look around and see other people involved in the material world, and they seem so happy with the things they enjoy.

I have spiritual happiness but my material life is a constant struggle, partly because many material world duties have not been tended to as I feel they should be since there are only so many hours in a day. But which is more important, God or the material world? According to my religion, “the world is like the vapor in a desert, which the thirsty dreameth to be water and striveth after it with all his might, until when he cometh unto it, he findeth it to be mere illusion.” Gleanings, p. 328 I truly believe that and that is how I got myself on this spiritual journey. Now I cannot seem to get my old life back, but why would I want to?

Whatever happen to the other deities throughout history? People just dropped them like a bad habit and embraced the Abrahamic god?

 

[Trailblazer]

Whatever happen to the other deities throughout history? People just dropped them like a bad habit and embraced the Abrahamic god?

I believe there is only one deity, the one that created the universe and revealed all the world religions.

The image below shows the Major Prophets and all of them revealed a major world religion.

 

[Windwalker]

I believe there is only one deity, the one that created the universe and revealed all the world religions.

The image below shows the Major Prophets and all of them revealed a major world religion.

View attachment 20076

Even those who try to write themselves into this map! How about we add me to the last layer of that? Why not? It's just as arbitrary.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't see anything wrong with your belief. The answers to these questions are articles of faith. There are no right or provable answers.

I've often wondered about God's roll in the Universe. There are many pantheistic type religions or ways of thinking about God. And I've argued since God is omnipotent then God could easily be both types of God at once, that is, pantheistic and anthropomorphic or abrahamic type God. I think it is an interesting question as to what God's function might be in the defining or executing the laws of physics.

I've often have trouble using words "mercy and grace" in describing God because of its anthropomorphic projection over God. It just seems to me God is many time indifferent to the affairs of man. There is just so much unnecessary evil in the World and nature is relentless in abiding by the laws of physics. I think the divine exists but superstition has to be taken into account.

I do not believe that God could be both the Abrahamic and pantheistic. Those are mutually exclusive because the Abrahamic God is separate from His Creation and the pantheistic God is part of creation. It is not a Baha’i belief that God is anthropomorphic. Wikipedia summarized the Baha’i view of God pretty well:

While the Bahá'í writings teach of a personal god who is a being with a personality (including the capacity to reason and to feel love), they clearly state that this does not imply a human or physical form.[2]Shoghi Effendi writes:
What is meant by personal God is a God Who is conscious of His creation, Who has a Mind, a Will, a Purpose, and not, as many scientists and materialists believe, an unconscious and determined force operating in the universe. Such conception of the Divine Being, as the Supreme and ever present Reality in the world, is not anthropomorphic, for it transcends all human limitations and forms, and does by no means attempt to define the essence of Divinity which is obviously beyond any human comprehension. To say that God is a personal Reality does not mean that He has a physical form, or does in any way resemble a human being. To entertain such belief would be sheer blasphemy.[17][18]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God in the Baha'i Faith

~~~ I do not believe God is indifferent to human affairs because I believe God is a personal God. I believe God is benevolent and has mercy and grace, despite the suffering we see in the world because I do not attribute suffering to God but rather to human free will decisions to commit evil acts. Sure, theoretically an omnipotent God could intervene and prevent suffering, but that would require that He interfere with human free will. God might sometimes intervene in human affairs to prevent suffering but there is no way we can ever know if or when because God is unknowable.
~~~ Mind you, this is my belief and what my rational mind tells me, but sometimes my feelings are not on board, because it is difficult to believe in a benevolent God that allows so much suffering. The only way to accommodate it in my mind is to understand that the material world was never intended to be a paradise. Owing to the nature of the material world there will always be some suffering as well as joy, but this world is just a very small part of our total existence. If we live this life as intended there will be no suffering in the spiritual world, there will only be joy.
~~~ What bothers me most about suffering is the unequal distribution as that does not seem like justice, but we are told that those who suffer most attain the most perfection and also there will be recompense for undue suffering in the afterlife.

Interpreting just what exactly is the "will of God" can be easily used to manipulate people. Knowing that something revealed to humanity came from God as opposed to just men is very important. Religion is a great source of power and influence in the World. Not everyone is altruistic in their motives. Evil is always where you least expect it. I don't want to sound like I'm invalidating your point of view it is just that I'm am very suspicious when it comes to what is revealed to me and why.

I'm not sure anyone can really "know" God beyond the limitations of knowing oneself.

I think you should be suspicious. You hit the nail on the head when you said “Knowing that something revealed to humanity came from God as opposed to just men is very important.” That is basically the whole ball of wax.

There is certainly some truth to that statement that we can know God by knowing ourselves since we are made in the image of God…

“Whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth is a direct evidence of the revelation within it of the attributes and names of God, inasmuch as within every atom are enshrined the signs that bear eloquent testimony to the revelation of that Most Great Light....To a supreme degree is this true of man, who, among all created things, hath been invested with the robe of such gifts, and hath been singled out for the glory of such distinction. For in him are potentially revealed all the attributes and names of God to a degree that no other created being hath excelled or surpassed....” Gleanings, pp. 177-178

But we can also know God by what is revealed by God to Messengers and by the attributes of God that they reflect, since they are a perfect mirror image of God.
~~~ We can also know more about ourselves and become our true selves by knowing the inherent potentialities that lie within us...

“The Purpose of the one true God, exalted be His glory, in revealing Himself unto men is to lay bare those gems that lie hidden within the mine of their true and inmost selves. That the divers communions of the earth, and the manifold systems of religious belief, should never be allowed to foster the feelings of animosity among men, is, in this Day, of the essence of the Faith of God and His Religion.” Gleanings, p. 287

(Continued on next post)

 

[Trailblazer]

It's very hard to know what God knows. As I've said God seems so indifferent to the affairs of man. I have not seen God bellowing out commands from the sky scolding someone for acting immorally. I have never seen anything supernatural happen before my eyes. Every time I drop something it hits the ground. Every time! Nature seems mindlessly relentless in executing the laws of physics perfectly. In terms of people, I've seen some people unexpectedly act with compassion which to me felt like a miracle.

So since God seems so indifferent, I thought about what is important to God. And since an omnipotent God needs absolutely nothing from us, what does any of what we do matter to God? As far as I can tell there is no provable answer to this question. To answer the question it has to be an article of faith as to what is the correct answer.

~~~ Indeed. It is impossible to know what God is doing or not doing or why at any time or how God thinks or feels. When people start projecting that onto God (usually Christians do this) that is anthropomorphism. The only thing wecan know is that God sends Messengers in every new age because there is evidence of these Messengers. What they reveal about God is all we can know but that is very limited limited to the attributes and the will of God for any age, which is very general. The Messenger sets out a plan for humanity to follow but the specifics are left up to humans to inculcate.
~~~ It is also impossible to know what matters to God, although according to my beliefs we know a few things that have been revealed such as why God created us.

3: O SON OF MAN! Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty.

4: O SON OF MAN! I loved thy creation, hence I created thee. Wherefore, do thou love Me, that I may name thy name and fill thy soul with the spirit of life.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 4

Those Words above indicate that God is not indifferent to humans, but that does not mean God needs us to love Him. God wants us to love Him because if we choose not to love Him God’s love will not reach us, given God does not force His love upon us.

5: O SON OF BEING! Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovestMe not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 4

I have to say that sometimes does not seem fair, but given we have the opportunity and the choice to love God or not, it is fair. We were all created with the capacity to know and love God, but some people have a greater capacity than others, so I believe all God requires is sincerity and effort. If we do not come to know and love god in this mortal world we will have the opportunity to do so after we die. Keep in mind that Word above does not mean that God does not love us even when we do not love Him. God still loves us, but we cannot feel that love if we reject God.

Overall all I thought your answers were fine and really thought out. Not many people take the time.

I know you are into a personal God. But I tend to think helping others to have enthusiasm in participating in God's creation is important too even though it's a little less personal in focus.

Thanks.
~~~ I think you might have misunderstood what I said. By personal God I simply meant a God that’s conscious of His Creation and cares about it. I did not mean what many Christians believe, that God is personal in the sense of having a one-on-one relationship with each human. Actually I do not believe that we can even have a direct connection to God as Christians believe we can have through the Holy Spirit. God is much too far above us to relate to us personally. There can be no direct intercourse between God and ordinary humans (with the exception of the Messenger who is a higher order of Creation than an ordinary human being.)
~~~ Speaking of helping others to have enthusiasm in participating in God's creation that brought to mind this passage I really like. I am reticent to post because someone might think that Baha'is believe in Satan. The Evil One represents our lower selfish nature that is always waiting to entrap us. Indeed, it is our selfish nature that hinders the progress of mankind. Just think of what the world would be like if everyone put aside their own selfish interests in favor of humanity as a whole.

“How high the reward of him that hath not deprived himself of so great a bounty, nor failed to recognize the beauty of his Best-Beloved in this, His new attire.Watch over yourselves, for the Evil One is lying in wait, ready to entrap you. Gird yourselves against his wicked devices, and, led by the light of the name of the All-Seeing God, make your escape from the darkness that surroundeth you. Let your vision be world-embracing, rather than confined to your own self. The Evil One is he that hindereth the rise and obstructeth the spiritual progress of the children of men.” Gleanings, p. 94

Material world is always a battle. It's just mind boggling to me with all our technology and manufacturing automation that we have so many people living in poverty. I just don't understand how everyone is so accepting of our conditions. Maybe someday love will get a leg up on hate for a change.

Most people are accepting of people living in poverty because they don’t care, since most people have deep concern only for their immediate family and friends. I am glad I posted that passage above after all because it is related to what you just said. Jesus said we should love our neighbor as ourselves, but in this new day Baha’u’llah upped the ante and said we should prefer our brothers to ourselves. Until that becomes a reality the world will never change.

I've wrestled with the idea of "genuine criticism" with "you only criticize..." sentence. My current thinking is there are always ways of being in relationship that will make the other person a better person. People do not like to be criticized. But there are ways you can interact with people that are not based on criticisms that will transform their consciousness. And in doing so, maybe the other person will no longer require the original criticisms. I have found most people become hardened in their bad behaviors in response to criticism. It's a very tricky tight rope to walk.

~~~ I was more referring to righteous indignation over a behavior that is not just, for example me letting my tenants go without paying rent for months on end only to have them leave and not know where they are now, after they promised to pay the debt.
~~~ But you are right about criticism and that is another very basic Baha’i principle. If someone has one good quality and nine bad qualities we are enjoined to focus only on the one good quality. As far as criticism is concerned:

“The most hateful characteristic of man is fault-finding.” (‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Star of the West, Vol. IV, No.11, p. 192)

“Beware lest ye offend the feelings of anyone, or sadden the heart of any person, or move the tongue in reproach of and finding fault with anybody, whether he is friend or stranger, believer or enemy . . . Beware, beware that any one rebuke or reproach a soul, though he may be an ill-wisher and an ill-doer.” (Abdu’l-Bahá, Tablets of Abdu’l-Bahá v1, p. 44)

From: Finding Fault and Blaming Others

 

[Trailblazer]

Even those who try to write themselves into this map! How about we add me to the last layer of that? Why not? It's just as arbitrary.

They did not write themselves into the map... God wrote them onto the map... and there will be more to follow these since there are even bigger and better spiritual destinations that lie ahead for humanity...

Sorry, but you have to have scriptures and a mission and a history and a religion in order to be like these guys.

 

[Trailblazer]

I lived with my grandparents for a while.....Methodist
I lived with my mother for a while.....Roman Catholic
I lived with my Dad and stepmother for a while.....Southern Calvary Bapist

almost became a Catholic priest......
but only two openings at the seminary and twelve candidates showed up
apparently there are at least two other people holier than me

no hard feelings

I broke from religion altogether as I kept on reading scripture
seems there is a quote that takes away each of the dogmatic methods

so.....
I pray alone
I do unto others with as much grace as I can muster (which is a test in it's own rite)

and I hope to stand well before God and heaven after my last breath

Thanks for sharing. I was never a Christian since both my parents dropped out of Christianity at some point before any children were born. I was raised with no religion at all and cannot even recall thinking about God till I stumbled upon my religion at age 17 and joined shortly thereafter. I have attended Baha’i activities off and on but I have never been a regular participant… I do believe in the teachings but I do my own thing in trying to live by them. I value of religion for me is in the teachings and laws but I understand why there has to be a religious community and why people need to work together as a group... However, I am an introvert and I like mixing with people of all beliefs and non-beliefs so I prefer my community to be on forums.

Yes, there are many verses in the Bible that take away the dogmatic methods of the Christian Church since those are man-made dogmas that have little to do with what Jesus ever said.

 

[savagewind]

I am new to this forum. I came here about 10 days ago. This will be the first thread I post.

I notice that people talk a lot about religion but I have not seen many threads about God. I belong to a religion but I am more interested in discussing God and all the implications of God’s existence or lack thereof, than in discussing religions and their beliefs and doctrines.

What are the implications of God's existence or lack thereof? Why does it matter if we believe in God?

According to my religion we were created to know and worship God. I sure do not know the inner thoughts and feelings of anyone except myself and those closest to me who have shared those, but as I look around in American society it sure does not seem as if most people are very focused on God. Rather, the focus seems to be on the material world and personal happiness. This bothers me a lot, maybe more than it should, but I feel very much alone because I have no interest in those things anymore.

I have been a member of my religion for 47 years but I have either ignored God or was angry at God for most of that time. I rarely participated in any religious activities, although I tried to follow the teachings and laws of my religion. Then about five years ago I came to a turning point. I decided I needed to do something about my lack of relationship with God and I also decided I wanted to try to do something with my religion. So I embarked upon a journey to learn what I had never known about my religion when I first joined. I have learned so much, mostly by posting on various forums and responding to questions posed to me which required I do a lot of reading and explaining.

Concurrently, I have been trying to figure out what to do about my personal relationship with God, or should I say a lack thereof. This continues to be a matter of great concern, especially how to worship God, which to me means loving God.

It has now been five years since I started what I consider a spiritual journey, and my whole perspective on life has changed as a result of putting my entire focus on my religion and God. Although I know I am a lot happier now than ever before in my life, I have mixed feelings about this because I feel very much alone on this journey of mine. Moreover, sometimes I question what I am doing when I look around and see other people involved in the material world, and they seem so happy with the things they enjoy.

I have spiritual happiness but my material life is a constant struggle, partly because many material world duties have not been tended to as I feel they should be since there are only so many hours in a day. But which is more important, God or the material world? According to my religion, “the world is like the vapor in a desert, which the thirsty dreameth to be water and striveth after it with all his might, until when he cometh unto it, he findeth it to be mere illusion.” Gleanings, p. 328 I truly believe that and that is how I got myself on this spiritual journey. Now I cannot seem to get my old life back, but why would I want to?

Welcome to the forum. What was your old life that you might get back? I don't believe that you @Trailblazer are alone.

"Trapped in a Broken Century"

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1756197291078577

 

[Windwalker]

They did not write themselves into the map... God wrote them onto the map... and there will be more to follow these since there are even bigger and better spiritual destinations that lie ahead for humanity...

Sorry, but you have to have scriptures and a mission and a history and a religion in order to be like these guys.

So in other words, I need some promotion men to get my name out, get a following, and then have them say I'm from God. That's not too hard to do. Lots of those guys out there.