The implications of God's existence or lack thereof

[Trailblazer]

I believe that if anyone claims to be speaking for God as His mouthpiece, they are delusional.

Then I guess we just have two very different beliefs because I believe that the Manifestations of God act as mouthpieces for God. But it is certainly not something I want to argue about...

However, someone can speak Truth through its many forms that rings truer and clearer than other words, just like that musician who plays that familiar tune with more clarity and substance than other average musicians.That is an expression of divine inspiration, but that does not mean it was God playing the instrument. It was the soul of that person in tune with the divine. It doesn't mean the tune was "infallible", or some other such mythological device layered on top of for believers to believe in, not being yet able to hear with the ears of their hearts.

I agree people can be in tune with the divine but I do not believe that God speaks to anyone except the Manifestations of God, which is done through the Holy Spirit. So I guess you could say I believe in the Abrahamic traditions, that God appeared and communicated to Moses through the Burning Bush, to Jesus through a Dove, to Muhammad through the Angel Gabriel, and to Baha'u'llah through a Maiden.

I consider such devices as training wheels in order to get people to hear that "voice of God" in everything, from the simple smile of a child, to a flower in the sunlight, to the fading light on the face of the dying elderly. Eventually, these "elevated prophets" fall into the distant background when that "voice" is heard in all of creation.

Hearing the *voice* of God is different from getting a *message* from God. The Manifestations of God (Prophets) are needed to convey a message that is needed by everyone, the actual Will of God for humanity in any given age of history. That in no way precludes individuals hearing the voice of God in everything, but just hearing that voice is not going to solve the serious problems we have in the world today.

Don't kid yourself. In the context you used it, in the context of how it is presented in the teachings, it is not just "different", but higher on a ranking scale of value. It's a power-hierarchy, not a growth hierarchy. They make him the Authority, which is a position of power "above" another. This is obvious.

So what is the problem with this? Why can't God appoint someone who speaks for Him as an Authority? You are not the first person I have talked to that take issue with this. My boss is a in a position of power over me but that does not devalue me, not unless my boss misuses his authority.

I'm sorry, what? Are you unaware that Hindus have been teaching about the Avatars of God for millennia before Baha'u'llah? An Avatar is a Manifestation of God. Dashavatara - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dashavatara
Yes, I know that. I do not know much about Avatars of God but Baha'is believe Krishna was a Manifestation of God (Prophet) and Hinduism is a major religion recognized by the Baha'i Faith. Moreover, Baha'is believe that God has sent Prophets ever since mankind evolved.

This is something all of us can do. "You are the Light of the World. Let your Light so shine before men that they may see your good works and glorify God in heaven." How is that, not all of us being a manifestation of God on earth??

I do not disagree that we can all *manifest God* but we cannot all receive communication from God. That is the salient difference. All of God's Creation manifests God. In the following passage, *testifying to the revelation of the names and attributes of God within them* means manifesting God:

“…From that which hath been said it becometh evident that all things, in their inmost reality, testify to the revelation of the names and attributes of God within them. Each according to its capacity, indicateth, and is expressive of, the knowledge of God. So potent and universal is this revelation, that it hath encompassed all things visible and invisible.............Man, the noblest and most perfect of all created things, excelleth them all in the intensity of this revelation, and is a fuller expression of its glory. And of all men, the most accomplished, the most distinguished, and the most excellent are the Manifestations of the Sun of Truth. Nay, all else besides these Manifestations, live by the operation of Their Will, and move and have their being through the outpourings of Their grace.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 177-179

But this not in accord with the teachings of many religious traditions, which the Baha'i claim to represent. For instance, in Buddhist nondual teaching, "Form is emptiness; emptiness is form; form is not other than emptiness; emptiness is not other than form." What this means is that the Essence of God cannot be separate from creation, and that both form and emptiness are inextricably linked together. All of creation is the incarnation of Spirit. We are all the body of God.

This is a very difficult subject. For now all I will say is that we do not have any original scriptures so we do not know what the Buddha taught. There are many different sects of Buddhism that believe different things about God and most Buddhists I know do not even believe in God. BTW, this is *one reason* we need an Authority that speaks for God and clears up all these prior misconceptions. Logically speaking, not all conceptions of God can be correct.

Are you saying the Baha'i' are agreeing with the Buddhists, or that they are wrong and your prophet has the truth? Niraguna? Where does he fit into your flow-chart of "prophets" who start major movements in religion, such as Mahayana Buddhism?

Baha'is do not agree with everything that Buddhists believe because many of them have veered away from the original teachings of the Buddha, particularly their conception of God as One. Also, Baha'is believe that Buddha was a Manifestation of God whereas Buddhists believe that Buddha was just a great teacher.

“Question.—To which category do Buddha and Confucius belong?
Answer.—Buddha also established a new religion, and Confucius renewed morals and ancient virtues, but their institutions have been entirely destroyed. The beliefs and rites of the Buddhists and Confucianists have not continued in accordance with their fundamental teachings. The founder of Buddhism was a wonderful soul. He established the Oneness of God, but later the original principles of His doctrines gradually disappeared, and ignorant customs and ceremonials arose and increased until they finally ended in the worship of statues and images.” Some Answered Questions, p. 165

However, the Baha'i teachings share much in common with Buddhist teachings that have survived. This website explains the differences and similarities: Buddhism and the Bahá'í Faith.

 

[Windwalker]

This is a very difficult subject. For now all I will say is that we do not have any original scriptures so we do not know what the Buddha taught.

We do not have the original scriptures of the Koran, so we do not know what Muhammad taught. We do not have the original scriptures of the NT, so we do not know what Jesus or any of the apostles taught. We do not have the original scriptures of the OT, so we don't know what any of the prophets taught. Therefore, you have no way of verifying anything Baha'u'llah taught.

If this is to be considered your argument, you've just lost your religion. Sorry.

There are many different sects of Buddhism that believe different things about God and most Buddhists I know do not even believe in God. BTW, this is *one reason* we need an Authority that speaks for God and clears up all these prior misconceptions. Logically speaking, not all conceptions of God can be correct.

The thing in all of this you fail to realize is that you are not "told" your way into the Knowledge of God. It is something you discovery on your own. The things I am talking about are "Realized", not "revealed" to you through someone else. If they are not realized by you, they are not something that has actual meaning in the long run. They are nice words you place your hope in, but they don't carry Truth in them in the way you will need them to.

Prophets are just some dudes who have some good insights into things, and people heap their hopes and dreams on them out of their despairations for truth and meaning in the worlds they live in. And given the right personality, this prophet will soak it up and feed it back to followers, who in a projection of their own hopes and desires start a new religion in the prophet's name.

The insights you've shared in these quotes, and those that I've read myself not long ago, are not something that really goes the distance in these areas, and falls quite short at other times, missing the mark completely at others. In other words, listen to what others say, take what you can from it, but ultimately, you will need to be your own Prophet.

Baha'is do not agree with everything that Buddhists believe because many of them have veered away from the original teachings of the Buddha, particularly their conception of God as One.

Do you not see the contradictions here? How would you know anything about what the Buddha actually taught if you discount all of the many sutras out there? And please don't tell me that your Prophet corrected the errors of Buddhism.

Also, Baha'is believe that Buddha was a Manifestation of God whereas Buddhists believe that Buddha was just a great teacher.

You don't seem to understand the violence this does to the Buddhist religion, do you?

“Question.—To which category do Buddha and Confucius belong?
Answer.—Buddha also established a new religion, and Confucius renewed morals and ancient virtues, but their institutions have been entirely destroyed. The beliefs and rites of the Buddhists and Confucianists have not continued in accordance with their fundamental teachings. The founder of Buddhism was a wonderful soul. He established the Oneness of God, but later the original principles of His doctrines gradually disappeared, and ignorant customs and ceremonials arose and increased until they finally ended in the worship of statues and images.” Some Answered Questions, p. 165

I don't know how to put this diplomatically. This is sickness. I would run from this religion if I were you.

 

[Trailblazer]

It doesn't sound to me like he agrees with the teachings of any of the Bible, both Old and New Testaments. That's a shame.

Have you ever sat along the shoreline of a lake and watched the sunset? Have you never felt the breeze blow up to your face and you inhaled all of Life in a single breath, breathing God into your soul? I could go on and on, but I can tell you with great confidence, from experience, God speaks through everything, and everyone, including yourself, if you have ears to hear, and eyes to see, as Jesus would say.

First off, the OT was not written when Moses was supposedly alive as a real person. The books of "Moses" were written around 5 BCE, over a thousand years after the supposed events of Exodus. Plus scholarship reveals it was not at all the work of a single author, but up to 5 different ones. So this fact sort of runs a sword through this mythology that Moses ushers in the "age" of the books of the OT. His relationship to it, is that he is a character on the pages of it.

No. The NT was "compiled" out of a list of many different writings from many different religious communities circulating around since 100 years after Jesus died, and only cut and pasted together into the canon of scripture in 382 CE. That's 350 years after Jesus lived. That's hardly Jesus bringing the NT to us! That's his religious followers. Why don't you call them Manifestations of God then?

This is inserting a modern individual into a mythological strain of thought. None of that happened as he or his followers in that day supposed. We know too much know for this "insert into a mythology" approach to work. That mythology doesn't work when you have the light of modern scholarship analyzing the components of it like this.

Why on earth do you imagine numbers of followers validates the truth of the religion? You know Jesus taught the exact opposite? He said, "Many are called, but few are chosen", and again, "strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.". I could go on, but to me, the fact that the masses rally behind something, means it should probably be considered suspect. The true spiritual path is a very lone and solitary one, not one filling with the swelling crowds of believers.

Personally, 7.3 million followers is no small number. But honestly, I think that number will begin to dwindel as modernity continues to bring the light of modern scholarship to the masses, such as what I shared in a couple minor points so far. I believe the beliefs in prophets will give way to something far more grounded in sensible fact that will allow true spiritual growth to happen alongside and within these more modern contents of modern sciences and scholarships. The need to turn to "oracles" to tell children about God will mature to us being able to find God in everything.

Nor does it mean there has to be one that is.

What research? You mean reading the flow charts someone within the religion pieced together from their personal beliefs about what happened? That's not scholarship, and does not stand up to the light of a critical analysis. A pretty chart does not mean its based in reality. Ken Ham has a pretty chart of how children rode around on velociraptors in the Garden of Eden. That doesn't make it credible. It has to pass the test of actual research.

Don't kid yourself that if someone doesn't accept what is being sold, it's because they don't want the truth. On the contrary, it is specifically because they are interested in truth that they are being highly careful, using the best tools available to themselves to make sure if they commit to something, it's based in reality.

History does not demonstrate that. The history as written by your organization, which selects what fits and rejects what doesn't does. It doesn't fit the history actual historians would look at. It's the same thing with the myths of the NT. History does not support those internal myths either.

You mean like the teachings of the Dharma? They've been around for 2500 years. Is there something wrong with these that we need a prophet from Persia to reinvent the wheel?

That's an interesting comment! You don't seem to realize that change happens first within the individual? In fact, without the personal awakening, there will be no actual change in society at large. Personal "salvation" or Enlightenment, is what gets the ball rolling.

But yet, Jesus says "Let your Light so shine", and again, "Christ in you, the hope of glory", "The kingdom of God is inside you". If a sliver of Infinity is inside of me, that that is not a "reflection", but a manifestation of the divine itself, through me.

But what is this fixation on "written"??? Why is that of highest, and utmost importance to you? As we continue our discussion, let's focus on this crucial point with some more depth, if you're willing?

But yet you are insisting on many things being true about God, such as a prophet from him for each age. If that's not an idea about God, then I'm not sure what you'd call that.

And that is why you will fail to see him.

I am not sure what you think Baha’u’llah disagrees with that is in the Bible? I do not know much about the Old Testament except that God revealed Himself to Moses at the Burning Bush, and Baha’u’llah confirms that. It is a Baha’i belief that God is hidden and Jesus declared God, which concurs with the New Testament:

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

I have no problem with God speaking through His Creation. God speaks through all of His Creation. Animals are my favorites but I also like beautiful scenery. However, only Manifestations of God (Prophets) reveal books and found new religions:

“The independent Prophets are the lawgivers and the founders of a new cycle. Through Their appearance the world puts on a new garment, the foundations of religion are established, and a new book is revealed. Without an intermediary They receive bounty from the Reality of the Divinity, and Their illumination is an essential illumination. They are like the sun which is luminous in itself: the light is its essential necessity; it does not receive light from any other star. These Dawning-places of the morn of Unity are the sources of bounty and the mirrors of the Essence of Reality.” Some Answered Questions, p. 164

John 14:6 “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

John 14:6 does not say that Jesus was the only way for all of eternity. Christians just mistook it to mean that.

The Bible does not say that there is “one in every age” because humanity was not ready to hear that at that time in history. That is why Jesus said He had many things to say but you cannot bear them now. This is a whole new age and Baha’u’llah wrote new stuff. He does not negate the old stuff, He just explains what it means.

I talk to Jews a lot and they know the Torah backwards and forwards. They believe that Moses was the greatest Prophet that ever lived and the only Prophet to whom God spoke directly. That concurs with Baha’i beliefs; the only difference is that we do not believe any Prophet is greater than any other and we believe that God has spoken to other Prophets before and after Moses the same way they spoke to Moses, through the Holy Spirit. Jews, like Christians, believe that their Prophet was the last one, just as Muslims believe that Muhammad was the last Prophet. But at least Muslims believe that Moses and Jesus were legitimate Prophets so they are far, far ahead of any Jew or Christian, which makes sense given that revelation came at a later time in history and the Qur’an is much more authentic than the Bible.

You are correct that men wrote the Bible, not Jesus. The degree to which Jesus was accurately depicted in the NT is anyone’s guess but I believe that Jesus was a Manifestation of God because Baha’u’llah validated that. It then makes sense to conclude that at least some of what was written in the NT accurately depicts Jesus. However, that does not mean that all the stories about Jesus such as the bodily resurrection and ascension are true.

Why would Truth from God have to *fit* into mythology. The Bible is no longer necessary to determine what God has revealed to mankind, because we have the Original Writings of Baha’u’llah, as we refer to His scriptures, all of which have been translated into English are in the Baha’i Reference Library online: The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

Baha’u’llah wrote them in His Own Pen and they have been authenticated. What happened in the past does not matter anymore. God has spoken again and He said that He wants us to turn towards His Manifestation for this day Baha’u’llah, and Baha’u’llah explained why:

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when the intervening veils were rent asunder. They themselves have acknowledged their failure in apprehending the meaning of any of the words of God.” Gleanings, pp. 171-172

(Continued on next post)

 

[Trailblazer]

You raised a very good point. When a religion is *new* not that many people recognize it but over time more people do, which is why religions grow and become large. If they never did they would not be of much use to the world. It just so happens I have gotten so much guff about the fact that the Baha’i Faith is still only about 0.1 % of the population, that I have written many posts on that subject. Here is part of one:

Only a few people recognize God’s *new religion* in the beginning, and that is why the Baha’i Faith is still relatively small.

Matthew 7:13-14 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”

As this relates to religion, the religion at the narrow gate is the religion God wants us to find and follow, but it is not that easy for most people to find because most people are steeped in religious tradition and attached to what they already believe. If they do not have a religion, most people are suspicious of the *new religion.*

Jesus told us to enter through the narrow gate, the gate that leads to eternal life, and He said few people would find that gate... It is narrow, so it is difficult to get through... It is difficult to get through because one has to be willing to give up all their preconceived ideas and think for themselves. Most people do not normally embark upon such a journey. They go through the wide gate, the easy one to get through – their own religious tradition. They follow that broad road that is easy to travel, the road that leads to destruction.

There is no indication that the Baha’i Faith is going to dwindle. The growth rates from 1910-2010 were as follows: Judaism .11%, Christianity 1.32%, Islam 1.97%, Baha’i 3.54%. Growth of religion - Wikipedia

Whether people * like* the idea of Prophets of God or not is of no consequence. Logically speaking, they were either sent by God or not. If they were, no amount of modern scholarship can change that, since God is omnipotent.

Who said a pretty chart is all we have? There is so much to research I would not even begin to know where to start. All of the authoritative Writings of the Baha’i Faith that have as yet been translated into English are located here: Baha’i Reference Library online

There is also a lot written *about* the Baha’i Faith.

And that is certainly what we are enjoined to do, investigate using the best tools available to be sure that whatever they commit to is based in reality.

“The first principle Baha’u’llah urged was the independent investigation of truth. “Each individual,” He said, “is following the faith of his ancestors who themselves are lost in the maze of tradition. Reality is steeped in dogmas and doctrines. If each investigate for himself, he will find that Reality is one; does not admit of multiplicity; is not divisible. All will find the same foundation and all will be at peace.” – Abdu’l-Baha, Star of the West, Volume 3, p. 5.

“What does it mean to investigate reality? It means that man must forget all hearsay and examine truth himself, for he does not know whether statements he hears are in accordance with reality or not. Wherever he finds truth or reality, he must hold to it, forsaking, discarding all else; for outside of reality there is naught but superstition and imagination.” – Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 62.

Let me correct what I said. History demonstrates that great world religions *exist* and have had a huge impact upon the lives of many people. Whether people believe they were revealed by God to a Prophet or not is a personal choice.

The teachings of the Dharma that were revealed 2500 years ago are not what humanity needs in this new age. Not only that, but not everyone is ever going to follow them so they could never bring people together. It is true that the spiritual teachings of all major religions are eternal so those teachings address those needs, but religion is about more than the spiritual. It also has practical aspects. A new message was needed that is pertinent to the problems of this day, and we also needed new social teachings and laws. For example: Bahá'í teachings - Wikipedia

I do realize that change starts within the individual, and that is an essential Baha’i teaching. However, personal awakening is not the same as personal salvation. Awakening is about knowing oneself and serving God and others; salvation is only about self, and is selfish.

I do not believe that "The kingdom of God is inside you" meant that God is literally inside of the body. It means that we all have the ability to manifest the beauty of God.

I am not fixated on the written Word but it is just logical that we need something written that everyone can read and follow. How else are people going to *know* what to do? Sure, there are little beacons of light like you all over the world but how is that going to change the world? It only works for you and those people and who come in contact with you. Organized religion is not my thing, but I accept the fact that without an organization through which to funnel the spirit, the spirit will be dissipated and lost. This is a big subject.

What I meant is that I do not know anything

about the Essence (intrinsic nature) of God or what God is *doing* at any time. The only thing I know that God does is send Prophets and the only thing I know *about God* are some of His attributes and the will of God for humanity for this age.

From: God in the Bahá'í Faith

“The Bahá'í view of God is essentially monotheistic. God is the imperishable, uncreated being who is the source of all existence.[1] He is described as "a personal God, unknowable, inaccessible, the source of all Revelation, eternal, omniscient, omnipresent and almighty".[2][3] Though transcendent and inaccessible directly, his image is reflected in his creation.”

Trailblazer said: and I do not believe God is ever going to arrive in any way other than in the Manifestation of God.

You said: And that is why you will fail to see him.

Nobody ever *sees* God, as Jesus said. I can see God reflected in His Creation but that is the *indirect* method of knowing about God.

The most direct* way we have of knowing about God is through a mediator, a Manifestation of God, since they reveal God. They are perfect mirror images of God and that is why Jesus said “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30).

Nobody can come to God directly because God is too great.

“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” (John 14:6).

Nobody can know about God directly because God is hidden.

“He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person.” Gleanings, p. 49

Notice the similarity between what Jesus said and what Baha’u’llah said.

 

[Windwalker]

So, let's focus on why you think "written" word is so much more important than other forms of communication. Why do you elevate "scripture" as the all-important, decisive factor for faith?

 

[Trailblazer]

So, let's focus on why you think "written" word is so much more important than other forms of communication.

Off the top of my head, although God is reflected throughout His Creation, I do not believe that God communicates in any other way . I will mull this over and come up with a more comprehensive answer later.

Why do you elevate "scripture" as the all-important, decisive factor for faith?

Scripture is not necessarily necessary for a person to believe in God, but it is necessary if we are going to know God's Will because God does not reveal that any other way.

 

[Trailblazer]

We do not have the original scriptures of the Koran, so we do not know what Muhammad taught. We do not have the original scriptures of the NT, so we do not know what Jesus or any of the apostles taught. We do not have the original scriptures of the OT, so we don't know what any of the prophets taught. Therefore, you have no way of verifying anything Baha'u'llah taught.

If this is to be considered your argument, you've just lost your religion. Sorry.

I am not trying to convince you of anything so I do not have an *argument.*

As I said in one of my longer posts I just posted we DO have the Original Writings of Baha'u'llah, so we know exactly what He wrote.

The Qur'an is much more authentic than the Bible, hands down, but I do not want to get into that now.

The thing in all of this you fail to realize is that you are not "told" your way into the Knowledge of God. It is something you discovery on your own. The things I am talking about are "Realized", not "revealed" to you through someone else. If they are not realized by you, they are not something that has actual meaning in the long run. They are nice words you place your hope in, but they don't carry Truth in them in the way you will need them to.

I hope you realize how illogical that is and why. How do you think you can know about God without a way to know about God? Anything you think you know is just your personal experience and it could be just your imagination. Others have different ideas about what God is so who is right, you or them? Reality is reality. God can only be what God is. Nobody has any way to know what that is without a *mediator* between God and man. That is what I call a Manifestation of God/Messenger/Prophet.

“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” (John 14:6).

Prophets are just some dudes who have some good insights into things, and people heap their hopes and dreams on them out of their despairations for truth and meaning in the worlds they live in. And given the right personality, this prophet will soak it up and feed it back to followers, who in a projection of their own hopes and desires start a new religion in the prophet's name.

That is only a personal opinion unless you can prove that. Good luck trying to prove that about Baha'u'llah.

The insights you've shared in these quotes, and those that I've read myself not long ago, are not something that really goes the distance in these areas, and falls quite short at other times, missing the mark completely at others. In other words, listen to what others say, take what you can from it, but ultimately, you will need to be your own Prophet.

Nobody can *be* a Prophet unless God chooses them and appoints them, although they can *believe* they are a Prophet.

Do you not see the contradictions here? How would you know anything about what the Buddha actually taught if you discount all of the many sutras out there? And please don't tell me that your Prophet corrected the errors of Buddhism.

Are you saying that there are original writings of the Buddha written in His Own Pen, verifiable, authenticated?
No, Baha'u'llah did not even address Buddhism. He was too busy writing His 15,000 Tablets.

You don't seem to understand the violence this does to the Buddhist religion, do you?

It does not do a darn thing to Buddhism, because Baha'u'llah never addressed Buddhism. So having a *new* and *different* religion means doing violence to a previous religions? If that is true, then Christianity did violence to Judaism and Hinduism and Buddhism.

I don't know how to put this diplomatically. This is sickness. I would run from this religion if I were you.

I am not sure what you mean but the Baha'i Faith is the only religion that does not do violence to all the other religions by saying that all the other religions are wrong... If other religious followers believed all the Manifestations of God were from One God and that all religions were right, then they would be Baha'is. Then everyone in the world could live together in harmony and unity instead of fighting about which religion is *right* ~~ which is the primary goal of the Baha'i Faith.

"Beware, O believers in the Unity of God, lest ye be tempted to make any distinction between any of the Manifestations of His Cause, or to discriminate against the signs that have accompanied and proclaimed their Revelation. This indeed is the true meaning of Divine Unity, if ye be of them that apprehend and believe this truth. Be ye assured, moreover, that the works and acts of each and every one of these Manifestations of God, nay whatever pertaineth unto them, and whatsoever they may manifest in the future, are all ordained by God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. Whoso maketh the slightest possible difference between their persons, their words, their messages, their acts and manners, hath indeed disbelieved in God, hath repudiated His signs, and betrayed the Cause of His Messengers.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 59-60

 

[LuisDantas]

What am I glossing over?

The nature of Dharma and the core concepts and goals of Hinduism and Buddhism.

There is also the matter of the ambiguous, self-important way how Islaam defines itself as a contrast to Judaism and Christianity.

What doctrines are those that are rigid?

Abrahamic Monotheism and its typical consequences, mainly. Including an attachment to scripture and authority.

It is. God chooses whom He chooses.

That is an article of faith, of the most arbitrary nature. As an argument it is not very useful at all.

 

[Windwalker]

Off the top of my head, although God is reflected throughout His Creation, I do not believe that God communicates in any other way . I will mull this over and come up with a more comprehensive answer later.

I hope you are still mulling this over, because I too find a hard time making this artificial distinction between "reflecting" and "communicating". Even if something is reflected, it's still seen, it's still recognized, it's still heard. And echo of another's voice off a cavern wall, is still that person's voice. Is it not? Why do you need Bob to come tell you what Fred said, when you hear his words echoing yourself?

Scripture is not necessarily necessary for a person to believe in God, but it is necessary if we are going to know God's Will because God does not reveal that any other way.

You keep saying those words, as if somewhat rehearsed. But do you really believe them? Someone can know God's will quite easily. You don't need to read it on a page and try to comprehend it with your mind. You just simply come to know God, and then you will know what is God's will. It will become your own will.

 

[Trailblazer]

So, let's focus on why you think "written" word is so much more important than other forms of communication.

The written word is the way God communicates His Will to humanity, what He wants us to do. God is All-Knowing and All-Wise so God knows what humanity needs in every age of history. It logically follows that written scripture which contains God’s Will for humanity is pretty important, especially at this critical juncture in history. Do you deny that the world we live in has serious problems? How do you think those will be solved?

“We can well perceive how the whole human race is encompassed with great, with incalculable afflictions. We see it languishing on its bed of sickness, sore-tried and disillusioned. They that are intoxicated by self-conceit have interposed themselves between it and the Divine and infallible Physician. Witness how they have entangled all men, themselves included, in the mesh of their devices. They can neither discover the cause of the disease, nor have they any knowledge of the remedy. They have conceived the straight to be crooked, and have imagined their friend an enemy.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213

Why do you elevate "scripture" as the all-important, decisive factor for faith?

Scripture is not necessarily the decisive factor in faith. Everyone comes to faith by their own means. The primary purpose of scripture is to reveal God’s Will for humanity. God’s Creation provides inspiration but scripture provides important information.

Scripture is not simply there for inspiration although it also provides that.

 

[Trailblazer]

The nature of Dharma and the core concepts and goals of Hinduism and Buddhism.

There is also the matter of the ambiguous, self-important way how Islaam defines itself as a contrast to Judaism and Christianity.

I do not gloss those over simply because I have a different religion.

I am not a Muslim. I am a Baha’i. I do not know what you mean about Islam defining itself as self-important but Islam supersedes Judaism and Christianity since it was a later revelation from God.

Abrahamic Monotheism and its typical consequences, mainly. Including an attachment to scripture and authority.

There have never been many gods. There has always been only One God. Therefore, Abrahamic Monotheism is the Truth from God.

The Bible, Qur’an and Baha’i Writings are all the Word of God. God appoints Prophets/Messengers who speak with authority and they establish *new* religions in every *new* age of humanity. I am sorry some people just don’t like that but there really is nothing anyone can do about it since God is omnipotent.

That is an article of faith, of the most arbitrary nature. As an argument it is not very useful at all.

It is not an argument. There is nothing arbitrary about it. It is just is what it is according to my beliefs....

“Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth, by virtue of His sovereignty, and doeth whatsoever He willeth at His own behest. He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain. He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p, 284

 

[Trailblazer]

I hope you are still mulling this over, because I too find a hard time making this artificial distinction between "reflecting" and "communicating". Even if something is reflected, it's still seen, it's still recognized, it's still heard. And echo of another's voice off a cavern wall, is still that person's voice. Is it not? Why do you need Bob to come tell you what Fred said, when you hear his words echoing yourself?

Are you saying you hear the voice of God and you are getting a message?

First, even if you think you are hearing God speak you cannot possibly know it is God. Many people believe God is speaking to them; do you think they are all right? Secondly, even if God is communicating to you and some other people in *some fashion* what about all the other people who hear nothing? I am a firm believer in nobody being left behind. Sure, you can say they can do the same thing that you do *if they want to* but everyone is different, so what works for some people does not work for all people...

Do you realize how many atheists and agnostics are on this forum? I have heard the spiel from believers telling nonbelievers to listen for God’s voice and they will hear it, and the implication is if they don’t that there must be something *wrong* with them... I do not hear God’s voice but I *know* God exists unequivocally because I have the evidence in Baha’u’llah. Moreover, I do not need a *personal* relationship with God. I believe I will have plenty of time to get close to God after I leave this mortal realm; in fact, I will have all of eternity. Till then I will be open to getting closer to God but it is not a deal breaker. According to Baha’u’llah knowledge of God and observance of His Will are the *beginning* and the *end* of all things. One cannot *know God* without a Manifestation of God and one cannot *observe* what He has sent down if they do not know what it is.

“The beginning of all things is the knowledge of God, and the end of all things is strict observance of whatsoever hath been sent down from the empyrean of the Divine Will that pervadeth all that is in the heavens and all that is on the earth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 5

*Inspiration* from God is different from an actual message a Messenger gets and writes down for all to read. That is God’s Will for all of humanity and it gets everyone on the same page if they all read the same scriptures, which results in unity of the human race. Unity is not uniformity because humans are all unique and people will always understand the message in their own way, but at least they will be in the same ball park with the primary spiritual message and the social teachings and laws.

You keep saying those words, as if somewhat rehearsed. But do you really believe them? Someone can know God's will quite easily. You don't need to read it on a page and try to comprehend it with your mind. You just simply come to know God, and then you will know what is God's will. It will become your own will.

If my words sound rehearsed that is because I have had this conversation so many times with so many people, for three years almost daily. You have no idea.

How do you think you can *know* God’s will unless God reveals His Will to you in some way? Is God speaking to you in some way? If people do not even believe Messengers heard God’s voice and they have evidence to support their claim, why should they believe you do? Fine, if that works for you, but it does not work for other people; in fact it works for very few people. I do not believe that God speaks to anyone except Messengers, although many Christians believe that. They are free to believe that if they want to but there is *no reason* for me to believe that and every reason to believe it is just their imagination, a hope, a wish fulfillment. I certainly know it is for some people because of what they said they heard from God, because it is flat out wrong.

 

[LuisDantas]

I do not gloss those over simply because I have a different religion.

I am not a Muslim. I am a Baha’i. I do not know what you mean about Islam defining itself as self-important but Islam supersedes Judaism and Christianity since it was a later revelation from God.

There have never been many gods. There has always been only One God. Therefore, Abrahamic Monotheism is the Truth from God.

The Bible, Qur’an and Baha’i Writings are all the Word of God. God appoints Prophets/Messengers who speak with authority and they establish *new* religions in every *new* age of humanity. I am sorry some people just don’t like that but there really is nothing anyone can do about it since God is omnipotent.

It is not an argument. There is nothing arbitrary about it. It is just is what it is according to my beliefs....

“Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth, by virtue of His sovereignty, and doeth whatsoever He willeth at His own behest. He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain. He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p, 284

You are illustrating what I meant.

You are decreeing that non-Abrahamic doctrines should be treated as if Abrahamic they were. You are also decreeing that Islaam is correct when it itself declares that it obsoletes Judaism and Christianity.

Both stances are, at best, arbitrary.

 

[Windwalker]

Are you saying you hear the voice of God and you are getting a message?

Hearing the voice of God, does not mean auditory hallucinations. "Hello there! I'm God! What's up, dude?" God speaks to the heart, the mind, and the soul far more "without words". "Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they reveal knowledge. They have no speech, they use no words; no sound is heard from them. "

So circling back, why do you imagine written words, or audible sounds care more Truth than that "Still small voice" inside your soul? Why do you distrust your heart in favor of your cognitive faculties? When one hears God, no matter how one hears, with which set of ears one listens, that "voice" is quite clear, like a clear stream of living waters. You know what water tastes like, when you taste it.

But to answer your question, yes, I hear God quite clearly, when I'm listening. Everything speaks to me both of God's being, and God's will. And that will is Love. It just doesn't come in the form of an auditory hallucination of another person's voice booming in my brain, like a schizophrenic might suffer with.

First, even if you think you are hearing God speak you cannot possibly know it is God.

Why would you say that? You don't think you would know God if you met God "face to face"; a direct and immediate encounter with the Divine itself? I can tell you, you would. It's unmistakable. You really can't confuse it.

Many people believe God is speaking to them; do you think they are all right?

I would listen to what they have to say, and look at where it is coming from in them. No of course not everyone is having a genuine mystical experience. But if they have had one, it will be clear they did. "By their fruits you shall know them," says Jesus, not simply by believing their claims. Another quote from Jesus, "My sheep hear my voice." Cleary, God is talking to more than just your prophet and a few dozen others out of the entire population of the planet earth's history.

Secondly, even if God is communicating to you and some other people in *some fashion* what about all the other people who hear nothing?

That's simply a matter of receptivity. For instance, if you're too busy in your brain trying to figure out where God is, you're not paying attention to the simply obvious which was never anywhere else but right there the whole time. Ever have one of those moments where you exclaim, "How could I have not seen that!"? It like that, only regarding Reality itself.

I am a firm believer in nobody being left behind. Sure, you can say they can do the same thing that you do *if they want to* but everyone is different, so what works for some people does not work for all people...

This is very true. There is no one size fits all path, except for death. We all die. We all pass through that door. So, I'd say there is a universal door to God, and that is surrendering everything you cling to in place of God. How you come to that place in yourself, is customized to you and your own life.

Do you realize how many atheists and agnostics are on this forum? I have heard the spiel from believers telling nonbelievers to listen for God’s voice and they will hear it, and the implication is if they don’t that there must be something *wrong* with them...

I would never presume to tell someone such things. Why would you tell someone who doesn't believe God exists to listen for God? That's kind of ridiculous, actually.

If however someone is seeking to hear God, or sense God, or otherwise experience God and find that elusive to them, there are certain things that naturally create obstacles for ourselves. It's sort of like asking, why can't I turn this screw with a hammer? The answer is you need a screwdriver, not a hammer. Ultimately, what those obstacles are, are unique to you, and you have to do the work to identify them and learn to let them go so you can do what you already have the natural ability to do so.

I do not hear God’s voice but I *know* God exists unequivocally because I have the evidence in Baha’u’llah.

Yes, well, that is not a "know" that is a belief. A "know" means you have experience, not a deductive logical conclusion.

Moreover, I do not need a *personal* relationship with God. I believe I will have plenty of time to get close to God after I leave this mortal realm; in fact, I will have all of eternity.

That is a pitiable shame. Why on earth do you think God is inaccessible to you in this world? It is my firm conviction that to forestall the fulfillment of your life until after you die, is a tragedy and a waste of life. It's like what Jesus said, "No one lights a lamp and hides it in a clay jar or puts it under a bed. Instead, they put it on a stand, so that those who come in can see the light." You don't wait until after death, to find God.

Till then I will be open to getting closer to God but it is not a deal breaker.

I don't see a reason to follow any religion if the end result is not to grow spiritually, which means "getting closer to God". If to you, it's only about making sure you get a reward for yourself, that the goal is you'll get heaven, that is probably why it's not happening for you. Try seeking love for love's sake alone, abandoning any self-seeking, and see if that maybe doesn't change things a little.

According to Baha’u’llah knowledge of God and observance of His Will are the *beginning* and the *end* of all things. One cannot *know God* without a Manifestation of God and one cannot *observe* what He has sent down if they do not know what it is.

"The heavens declare the glory of God...." "The invisible things through creation are clearly seen and made known, even his eternal power and Godhead, so they are without excuse". God is manifesting himself, in all of creation.

*Inspiration* from God is different from an actual message a Messenger gets and writes down for all to read.

You know what the funny thing about this is? I was trying to get to this with you before. It has to do with "written down". Why do you imagine this is somehow superior? The words of others on the pages of a book means nothing, if you don't have ears to hear. The words of God written on every flower of the field are likewise not understood by ears that can't hear and eyes that can't see.

You may enjoy reading this thread I did that touches on that: The Impossibility of Scriptural Authority

Why don't you read that and come back to me and let's talk about why you think "scriptures" have more weight and value than anything else God reveals, not with prophets, but with his very Being?

 

[Truthseeker]

I hope you are still mulling this over, because I too find a hard time making this artificial distinction between "reflecting" and "communicating". Even if something is reflected, it's still seen, it's still recognized, it's still heard. And echo of another's voice off a cavern wall, is still that person's voice. Is it not? Why do you need Bob to come tell you what Fred said, when you hear his words echoing yourself?


You keep saying those words, as if somewhat rehearsed. But do you really believe them? Someone can know God's will quite easily. You don't need to read it on a page and try to comprehend it with your mind. You just simply come to know God, and then you will know what is God's will. It will become your own will.

11. O SON OF BEING!
Thou art My lamp and My light is in thee. Get thou from it thy radiance and seek none other than Me. For I have created thee rich and have bountifully shed My favor upon thee.
(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

God's light is in us, but we are not pure. There is a dark part of ourselves also, born of the world of matter. Without the Word of God, when we look into ourselves to find God, we are really looking at our own spirit, and our own spirit is imperfect. In many cases It can give us good guidance, but not always.

Besides this, the Word of God can get us high in the spirit. I know it can do this for me. If you don't have the Word of God, you are in relative darkness.

 

[Trailblazer]

You are illustrating what I meant.

You are decreeing that non-Abrahamic doctrines should be treated as if Abrahamic they were.

I never said that non-Abrahamic doctrines should be treated as if they are Abrahamic. I only ever said *I believe* there is only One God and Many Messengers of God who establish many different religions.

You are also decreeing that Islaam is correct when it itself declares that it obsoletes Judaism and Christianity.

Both stances are, at best, arbitrary.

I do not know what Islam declares but *I believe* it supersedes Judaism and Christianity so in that sense it renders them obsolete. I do not consider that arbitrary because *I believe* the Qur’an is the Word of God and it is much more authentic than the Torah or the Bible.

 

[Trailblazer]

Hearing the voice of God, does not mean auditory hallucinations. "Hello there! I'm God! What's up, dude?" God speaks to the heart, the mind, and the soul far more "without words". "Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they reveal knowledge. They have no speech, they use no words; no sound is heard from them. "

So circling back, why do you imagine written words, or audible sounds care more Truth than that "Still small voice" inside your soul? Why do you distrust your heart in favor of your cognitive faculties? When one hears God, no matter how one hears, with which set of ears one listens, that "voice" is quite clear, like a clear stream of living waters. You know what water tastes like, when you taste it.

But to answer your question, yes, I hear God quite clearly, when I'm listening. Everything speaks to me both of God's being, and God's will. And that will is Love. It just doesn't come in the form of an auditory hallucination of another person's voice booming in my brain, like a schizophrenic might suffer with.

Why would you say that? You don't think you would know God if you met God "face to face"; a direct and immediate encounter with the Divine itself? I can tell you, you would. It's unmistakable. You really can't confuse it.

I would listen to what they have to say, and look at where it is coming from in them. No of course not everyone is having a genuine mystical experience. But if they have had one, it will be clear they did. "By their fruits you shall know them," says Jesus, not simply by believing their claims. Another quote from Jesus, "My sheep hear my voice." Cleary, God is talking to more than just your prophet and a few dozen others out of the entire population of the planet earth's history.

That's simply a matter of receptivity. For instance, if you're too busy in your brain trying to figure out where God is, you're not paying attention to the simply obvious which was never anywhere else but right there the whole time. Ever have one of those moments where you exclaim, "How could I have not seen that!"? It like that, only regarding Reality itself.

This is very true. There is no one size fits all path, except for death. We all die. We all pass through that door. So, I'd say there is a universal door to God, and that is surrendering everything you cling to in place of God. How you come to that place in yourself, is customized to you and your own life.

I would never presume to tell someone such things. Why would you tell someone who doesn't believe God exists to listen for God? That's kind of ridiculous, actually.

If however someone is seeking to hear God, or sense God, or otherwise experience God and find that elusive to them, there are certain things that naturally create obstacles for ourselves. It's sort of like asking, why can't I turn this screw with a hammer? The answer is you need a screwdriver, not a hammer. Ultimately, what those obstacles are, are unique to you, and you have to do the work to identify them and learn to let them go so you can do what you already have the natural ability to do so.

Yes, well, that is not a "know" that is a belief. A "know" means you have experience, not a deductive logical conclusion.

That is a pitiable shame. Why on earth do you think God is inaccessible to you in this world? It is my firm conviction that to forestall the fulfillment of your life until after you die, is a tragedy and a waste of life. It's like what Jesus said, "No one lights a lamp and hides it in a clay jar or puts it under a bed. Instead, they put it on a stand, so that those who come in can see the light." You don't wait until after death, to find God.

I don't see a reason to follow any religion if the end result is not to grow spiritually, which means "getting closer to God". If to you, it's only about making sure you get a reward for yourself, that the goal is you'll get heaven, that is probably why it's not happening for you. Try seeking love for love's sake alone, abandoning any self-seeking, and see if that maybe doesn't change things a little.

"The heavens declare the glory of God...." "The invisible things through creation are clearly seen and made known, even his eternal power and Godhead, so they are without excuse". God is manifesting himself, in all of creation.

You know what the funny thing about this is? I was trying to get to this with you before. It has to do with "written down". Why do you imagine this is somehow superior? The words of others on the pages of a book means nothing, if you don't have ears to hear. The words of God written on every flower of the field are likewise not understood by ears that can't hear and eyes that can't see.

You may enjoy reading this thread I did that touches on that: The Impossibility of Scriptural Authority

Why don't you read that and come back to me and let's talk about why you think "scriptures" have more weight and value than anything else God reveals, not with prophets, but with his very Being?

I understand that hearing God’s voice is not a physical thing like auditory hallucinations. I understand that God speaks to the heart, the mind and the soul, but here is the problem… There is absolutely no way to know if it is God speaking or one’s imagination, there just isn’t… I am not saying that you do not hear God as you say; I am saying I do not think that everyone who claims to does because that is impossible to know, impossible.

Of course I would know if I met God face to face but I do not believe that is possible, not even in the hereafter, let alone in this mortal realm of existence. That is a Baha’i belief but even if that was not a Baha’i belief I would not believe it because it is highly illogical. Nobody ever “sees God.” Jesus said that (John 1:18, 1 John 4:12) and of course Baha’u’llah confirmed it in so many words.So if someone told me they “saw God” I would send them to a psychiatrist.

A mystical experience is a mystical experience. I never had one so I cannot know what that is like. I do not question others who have had them but I do question whether God was actually communicating to them… I believe God can communicate to our minds in some way and through other people but there is no way one can really know if it is God or not… Sorry, I am a true skeptic.

The Baha’i Faith is a very mystical religion while at the same time being practical. There is a book written by a Baha’i called Mysticism, Science and Revelation by Glenn A. Shook. I just found in the bookcase I might read soon. I just discovered that it is also online to read:

https://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/shook_mysticism_science_revelation.pdf

Mysticism, Science and Revelation

“Mysticism, Science and Revelation, by Glenn A. Shook (1953). The essence of true religion is that feeling which unites man with God. Some mystics believes that man may become one with the Absolute, but this is not scientific. Differences between mystical experience and prophetic religion. Books.[about]”

Documents by Glenn A. Shook

"By their fruits you shall know them," is a way to know whether people are true Prophets or false prophets. It is not about ordinary people who claim to hear God’s voice.

John 10:16 “And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”

Jesus is referring to His Second Coming, when all the religions would be gathered together and be one religion. This was the mission of Baha’u’llah. Baha’u’llah was the return of the Christ Spirit prophesied in the NT and the Messiah prophesied in the OT. The one fold was prophesied in Isaiah 11:6-9 and the one shepherd was prophesied in Isaiah 9:6-7.

(Continued on next post)

 

[Trailblazer]

I do not believe it is simply a matter of receptivity although I agree some people are more receptive to inspiration from God than others. However, there is no way to know where God is or what God is doing. I have oft referred to this as the “naïve believer syndrome.”

Well, I fully agree with surrendering to God, but it would take a new thread. Baha’u’llah wrote so much about that, and said the human heart cannot be divided between the world and God; Jesus said the same thing

Well, what I meant is that some believers tell people they would believe in God if only they listened to God. In other words, they are saying that would be proof to them that God exists. So what about these nonbelievers, are you saying they just have to remove the obstacles? Self and attachment to this world are obstacles for everyone but nonbelievers have additional obstacles, skepticism and confirmation bias regarding religion.

True, a belief is a mental thing based upon objective evidence but knowing is a subjective thing. I know because I have had the experience of God speaking to me, every time I read the Writings of Baha’u’llah.

I am not “looking” for God because I will never “find” God. The promise of Baha’u’llah is that if we sacrifice self and worldly desires we will be close to God, so that is my goal. It seems to be working so far. I do feel close to God when so I am not forestalling fulfillment. Fulfillment for me is doing what I know God wants me to do, sacrificing self and helping other people who are not as fortunate as me to know what I know about God and Baha’u’llah. What Jesus taught was for another time in history and his message was about having a personal connection to God personal salvation… That is still necessary but it is not the primary message for this new day… The individual must subjugate their own needs for the good of the whole:

“I confess that Thou hast no desire except the regeneration of the whole world, and the establishment of the unity of its peoples, and the salvation of all them that dwell therein.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 243

Apparently you have completely misconstrued what I have been saying but that happens a lot on these forums. It is nobody’s fault. Growing spiritually and getting closer to God is the primary goal of every Baha’i but we all go about it differently because we all have different backgrounds, personalities, capacities and understandings of what Baha’u’llah wrote. My goal is absolutely not to get to heaven.

“WORSHIP thou God in such wise that if thy worship lead thee to the fire, no alteration in thine adoration would be produced, and so likewise if thy recompense should be paradise.... Fire and paradise both bow down and prostrate themselves before God. That which is worthy of His Essence is to worship Him for His sake, without fear of fire, or hope of paradise.” Selections From the Writings of the Báb, p. 77

I abandoned self-seeking five years ago. Things have change, more than a little. Please go back and read the thread header of this thread, which I ended with “Now I cannot seem to get my old life back, but why would I want to?”

I do not deny that God manifests Himself in all of creation. I am sure I already said that and provided a passage that says that. However, scriptures revealed to Messengers of God are superior because they contain information we cannot get from any other source. Baha’u’llah had the knowledge of God.

“O KING! I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow.” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 57

God chooses these individuals and they are not ordinary human beings only but were pre-existent souls in the spiritual world endowed with the ability and capacity to receive God’s message and convey it to us.

Thanks... I look forward to reading your thread as soon as I have time.

 

[LuisDantas]

I never said that non-Abrahamic doctrines should be treated as if they are Abrahamic. I only ever said *I believe* there is only One God and Many Messengers of God who establish many different religions.

Fair enough. Except that some of those doctrines that you believe to be legitimate are Christianity and (most of all) Islaam. Those two are exclusivist doctrines that don't really allow such a reading.

It seems to me that in attempting to do so anyhow you are failing to appreciate what are ultimately some of the best traits of non-Abrahamics.

I do not know what Islam declares but *I believe* it supersedes Judaism and Christianity so in that sense it renders them obsolete. I do not consider that arbitrary because *I believe* the Qur’an is the Word of God and it is much more authentic than the Torah or the Bible.

Yeah, that is one of the most serious drawbacks of the Qur'an and of Islaam.

I don't know that there is any remedy to that except simply learning better than to believe the Qur'an quite that much. You Bahai are probably the leading group in that much worthwhile goal.

 

[Windwalker]

I understand that hearing God’s voice is not a physical thing like auditory hallucinations. I understand that God speaks to the heart, the mind and the soul, but here is the problem… There is absolutely no way to know if it is God speaking or one’s imagination, there just isn’t…

In the words of the immortal Yoda, "So certain, are you?" You seem so adamant, not having experience yourself. That is curious.

To use a fair comparison, imagine being the officiant of a young couples wedding, and then you standing there and saying to the two of them, "There is absolutely no way for you to know what you are experiencing here is really love, or just your imagination talking to you. You do realize love is just a chemical release in your bodies, don't you two?"

I think they would probably feel badly for you that you've never experienced love and understand how you "just know", and you know without so-called "skepticism". "How do you know I just smacked your knee-cap with this board?"

BTW, you're wrong. As I said before, it's unmistakable.

I am not saying that you do not hear God as you say; I am saying I do not think that everyone who claims to does because that is impossible to know, impossible.

Again, I agree there are lots of people claiming these things, when it fact it is just an extension of their egos. But then there are those who genuinely have experiences of the Divine, "face to face" (in quotes). And it is not "impossible" to recognize that in another, when you yourself have been there as well.

It's like that young couple in love with each other. They can tell when it's genuine love in others when they see it them. They can tell it is genuine because they can recognize it in themselves. And, they can also tell when it's just some "infatuation", and extension of one's ego, hoping to find themselves in someone else. They can see the difference, because they are experienced. Experience counts. Experience is what can help one divide between the sheep and the goats.

Perhaps you are so adamant about these things being "impossible" because you can't imagine something outside your own personal experience at this point? I'm sure on the other side of that at some point however, you might probably laugh looking back at your insistence here today.

Of course I would know if I met God face to face but I do not believe that is possible, not even in the hereafter, let alone in this mortal realm of existence.

Metaphors. They are "as if" statements. When I said a "face to face" encounter with God, I put them in quotes because I wanted to make sure you didn't imagine I thought God had an actual, literal face. In addition however, I put it into quotes like that because it is actually a direct quote from the Apostle Paul in 1. Cor. 13. "For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known."

Of course God doesn't have a literal face because "God is Spirit" (Jn. 4:24). But one certainly can have a direct, unmediated, immediate encounter with Infinite Spirit "face to face". I have. To attempt to describe what is indescribable; Time ceases. It is an encounter with the Infinite. Infinite Knowledge, Infinite Love. Infinite Light. Infinite Compassion. Infinite Grace. Infinite Joy. Life itself. Being. Creativity. Awareness. And an endless stream of Peace, flowing to everything, from everything, through everything, all connected as the body of God itself. All of Creation speaks of God, because God is expressed in and through and to all things.

As I said, it's pretty unmistakable. It blows the roof off anything your mind can conjure up in what it can imagine in its speculations of Reality. You experience that, and there is no more place of doubt. No room for fear. No room for separation. It is a Knowledge of the Infinite, or God itself, within you, and all of Reality.

That is a Baha’i belief but even if that was not a Baha’i belief I would not believe it because it is highly illogical.

Illogical? Yes! Of course it is! Haven't you ever heard someone describe God as "incomprehensible"? The word best to describe the experience of God is ineffable, which means, "too great or extreme to be expressed or described in words".

Logic functions by describing things in words, by drawing boundaries around things, dividing them up into positive and negative statements. So yes, naturally, it goes beyond logic! Can you draw a boundary around God? And if so, how logically, is that God anymore?

Nobody ever “sees God.” Jesus said that (John 1:18, 1 John 4:12)

Yes, of course. God does not have a corporeal body. God is Spirit. But one can in fact experience and see a manifestation of that, whether that is seeing God in Creation, or an image projected to the mind and soul of one encountering the Divine. I won't get into all of that at this point, but would be happy to if you want to narrow the focus of this discussion. It's a little unwieldy at this point to continue to add more complexity to it.

So if someone told me they “saw God” I would send them to a psychiatrist.

And if they went to a psychiatrist who understood mystical experiences, such as having done research into these areas and not assume it's some prerational, infantile, oceanic experience and a dysfunction, they would understand these are natural, normal, and healthy things.

In other words, if someone claimed God told them to kill their dog, chances are high, they are sick in the mind. If they said God revealed himself to them, and their lives are changed and they are to do the work of helping others, then what is unhealthy about this?

A mystical experience is a mystical experience. I never had one so I cannot know what that is like.

Well, there you go then. I certainly have, and so what I am saying comes from a place of deep understanding through personal experience, as well as research into these areas of quite some depth. Some religious person making absolute statements based on speculations, such as "How do you know that wasn't actually the devil?," are at a marked disadvantage. The one with the experience is holding all of the winning cards in their hand.

I believe God can communicate to our minds in some way and through other people but there is no way one can really know if it is God or not… Sorry, I am a true skeptic.

Actually, and with respect to you, you are not a true skeptic. A valid skeptic questions what they hear, but they consider it with an open mind as possible, that their own understanding may be lacking some important parts, and they carefully procede in examining and inquiring into something that they don't fully understand. On the other hand, a cynic dismisses things as "impossible", "I've heard it all before and I don't believe it,", and so forth.

What a lot of folks proudly call "skepticism" is not, but is actually cynicism. Cynicism, I have found, is rooted in fear. Fear of maybe being wrong. Fear they can't trust themselves to know or decide for themselves, etc. It masks itself as skepticism, putting a respectable face on them shutting themselves off from things that challenge their beliefs, something that might make validity of their religious beliefs be called into question. It's a form of denialism.

The essence of true religion is that feeling which unites man with God. Some mystics believes that man may become one with the Absolute, but this is not scientific.

This statement is a bit bizarre. What does science have to do with validating anything about God? It's not mathematical either, but that doesn't mean it's not valid. But if you want to address this from a scriptural position, which you like to do, then when Jesus says, "I pray they may all be one, just as I am in you and you are in me." That is very much a mystical statement of Oneness with God. It is one I have, and do experience myself. It's not a scientific statement, but a statement of lived reality.

"By their fruits you shall know them," is a way to know whether people are true Prophets or false prophets. It is not about ordinary people who claim to hear God’s voice.

It is also how you tell if anyone who claims to believe in God actually has any genuine experience of God. Galatians 5:

"But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.... But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law."​

In other words, it's not just about false prophets (even if that immediate context was addressing that), but about anyone claiming to be a "believer". "By their fruits you shall know them," applies to everyone.

John 10:16 “And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”

Jesus is referring to His Second Coming,

No it does not. First off, read the first section of that chapter,

Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.” Jesus used this figure of speech, but the Pharisees did not understand what he was telling them.​

As you can see, the principle is that people who are attuned to the things of Spirit, of God, can recognize Truth, no matter when or where they exist. This context was not talking about the future, but the reality of things right then with those from the religious communities, armed with their scriptures to bolster their beliefs, were missing that Jesus was pointing to. It's not about beliefs and theologies, but "hearing" that Voice.