The implications of God's existence or lack thereof

[Truthseeker]

Since when should "faith" be considered infallible fact? I think you mean a different word than faith. You must mean dictatorship and a lack of freedom?

One day all the world will accept the Baha'i Faith. It is not dictatorship. it is a free-will decision.

When I say Love, I do not mean egoistic I mean the Love of God. And if that doesn't create Unity, nothing can.

I mean the love of God, too Only a minority are like that, and always will be so we need a framework for peace. We need principles to follow. Foremost is a lack of prejudice and the equality of all mankind including men and women. We must not be nationalistic or put our racial group ahead of others. I know these flow from the love of all mankind, but still people don't believe in these things, so it must be said. Not very many go from a love of God to these principles.

 

[Windwalker]

One day all the world will accept the Baha'i Faith. It is not dictatorship. it is a free-will decision.

I cannot see that happening for many reasons. This would assume everyone will think the same and see reality all through the same lens - the lens which surprisingly happens to be the one you do. Many religions imagine this about themselves, for the same reasons. Conformity of thought is not the same as Unity, either.

I mean the love of God, too Only a minority are like that, and always will be so we need a framework for peace. We need principles to follow.

But in order for someone to choose to follow those there must be some compelling reason for them. What might that be?

Foremost is a lack of prejudice and the equality of all mankind including men and women.

That is being promoted in our culture through a postmodern view of reality, which I of course support. But one needs only look at the Trump support base to understand that not everyone is capable of seeing others this way. I'm not sure why the Baha'i' feel their teaching can do any better to change minds?

We must not be nationalistic or put our racial group ahead of others. I know these flow from the love of all mankind, but still people don't believe in these things, so it must be said. Not very many go from a love of God to these principles.

I would say if they did have a love of God, this would be far easier to embrace, because of a willing heart to set aside one's own pride when they realize the harm they are doing to others. Without that, well, pride rules the day and you have what you have. What do you see as the solution here?

 

[Truthseeker]

One day all the world will accept the Baha'i Faith. It is not dictatorship. it is a free-will decision.

I cannot see that happening for many reasons. This would assume everyone will think the same and see reality all through the same lens - the lens which surprisingly happens to be the one you do. Many religions imagine this about themselves, for the same reasons. Conformity of thought is not the same as Unity, either.

All Baha'is are free to interpret the Baha'i Writings however they want to. I have seen some strange opinions by Baha'is. We have a covenant that says that no one besides the appointed interpreters can impose their interpretation on others.

Of course I realize that no one up to now has been able to convince everybody of the truth of their cause, so of course you think that will continue. But as a Baha'i it has been promised that just about all men and women will become Baha'is. This promise has never been made before by any of the Divine teachers of the past. I consider the Baha'i Faith special. It fulfills all of the religions revealed by God. Of course you will never see it this way because you don't believe that the Prophets of God to be any different from yourself. Also the religions appear to contradict one another. I know I will not convince you of anything.


Truthseeker9 said: ↑

We must not be nationalistic or put our racial group ahead of others. I know these flow from the love of all mankind, but still people don't believe in these things, so it must be said. Not very many go from a love of God to these principles.

I would say if they did have a love of God, this would be far easier to embrace, because of a willing heart to set aside one's own pride when they realize the harm they are doing to others. Without that, well, pride rules the day and you have what you have. What do you see as the solution here?

The time will come when mankind will create disaster because of the lack of unity, and will be forced to a framework of peace. It will not be unity but an enforced peace. Then perhaps people will listen to how we can create real unity so we can keep the peace going. Otherwise the framework of peace may break down. This is how the Baha'i Faith sees it, but I am just offering it as a suggestion to you.

 

[Trailblazer]

@ Windwalker

Thanks for explaining the difference between theism and pantheism and how that is related to dualism... I do understand now... I did not quite understand panentheism but that is okay... I can only take in so much information at one time, especially after the week I have had. Besides, I am trying to make my way through all your posts. I already wrote answers to some of the newer ones but I do not want to post those till I read the older ones.

You said: Our individuality remains individual, yet the individuality is ultimately an appearance. I do exist as me, as that individual wave, but my existence is not separate from the Ocean. And it could be said easily that my individualism is an expression of the Ocean, as me. Your individuality is an expression of the Ocean, as you. The forms of your wave may differ from the shapes and forms of mine, but we are ultimately United by, through, and within the Ocean, or God itself.

I believe we are part of the ocean but I do not believe God is in that ocean. I see myself as part of God’s Creation, especially as part of humanity, which is all one family, as that is a Baha’i belief:

“The utterance of God is a lamp, whose light is these words: Ye are the fruits of one tree, and the leaves of one branch. Deal ye one with another with the utmost love and harmony, with friendliness and fellowship. He Who is the Day Star of Truth beareth Me witness! So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth. The one true God, He Who knoweth all things, Himself testifieth to the truth of these words.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 288

You said: Some waves are higher, some lower, some smaller, some bigger, some flatter, some rounder, but each single wave has exactly the same Wetness. They are not separate from the Ocean. It is the same Wetness in each wave that unites us as both One, and Many at the same time.

Yes, all humans are very different, just like the waves in the ocean; that is explained in this chapter and what our attitude should be about that:

“Consider the world of created beings, how varied and diverse they are in species, yet with one sole origin. All the differences that appear are those of outward form and colour. This diversity of type is apparent throughout the whole of nature.

Behold a beautiful garden full of flowers, shrubs, and trees. Each flower has a different charm, a peculiar beauty, its own delicious perfume and beautiful colour. The trees too, how varied are they in size, in growth, in foliage—and what different fruits they bear! Yet all these flowers, shrubs and trees spring from the self-same earth, the same sun shines upon them and the same clouds give them rain.....

Thus should it be among the children of men! The diversity in the human family should be the cause of love and harmony, as it is in music where many different notes blend together in the making of a perfect chord....

Likewise, when you meet those whose opinions differ from your own, do not turn away your face from them. All are seeking truth, and there are many roads leading thereto. Truth has many aspects, but it remains always and forever one.

Do not allow difference of opinion, or diversity of thought to separate you from your fellow-men, or to be the cause of dispute, hatred and strife in your hearts.

Rather, search diligently for the truth and make all men your friends.” Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, pp. 51-53

Those are excerpts.... For the whole chapter: BEAUTY AND HARMONY IN DIVERSITY

And speaking of waves being different, it is a Baha’i belief that the Manifestations of God (Prophets) are higher waves and ones that come crashing to shore with a great impact.

You said: The strictly dualistic mind sees another wave and says "other". The strictly monistic mind sees another wave as says "same". The nondual mind see itself and all waves as unique, powerful, beautiful, individual, and forever bound together both in and as an expression of the Ocean itself, which is both within each wave, and each wave itself expressing itself as That from which it arises.

According to what you said, I do not consider myself dualistic since I believe I am part of one whole of humanity, and that whatever I do affects the whole in some way... For example my kindness to a stranger can have a ripple effect even though I will never see it. But I do not consider myself part of God or God part of me.

You said: What that translates into is this, again from that blog I just found,

In other words, the appearance of the separate wave is not a problem for the Ocean. The appearance of your life story is itself a perfect expression of Being. In this unconditional love, nothing is denied.

Are you trying to say that the appearance of humans as separate from God is not a problem for God, that God wants us to be a part of Him?

You said: But if God is not fully within us, then God does not exist somewhere. That's like saying there is no wetness in the wave, as if it were hollowed out and could exclude God somehow, removing God from existing everywhere equally at once.

Why does God have to exist within us in order to exist somewhere? Why can’t God be separate from us while at the same time being omnipresent? Do you consider that a contradiction? The way I see it God is All-Powerful so it is God’s choice as to whether we are part of Him or not. But God is still omnipresent although that is not something our minds can grasp.

You said: But I have already pointed out we in fact can apprehend the intrinsic nature of God in our being, which I make a clear distinction between that perceptivity and the perceptivity of the cognitive mind with relies on the dualistic structures of language.

I do not believe that the intrinsic nature of God (God’s Essence) is within us (our own waves) but rather the attributes of God are within our own waves... Everything in creation reflects the attributes of God but nobody can ever know the intrinsic nature of God or have it within them.

You said: But if the wetness of the Ocean is within our own waves, then while the wave cannot comprehend the endless of the Ocean as something outside itself, it most certainly can understand the whole of the Ocean within the wetness of itself. That wetness is the same in each wave. One is not trying to define or understand the Ocean as something outside of oneself, but as the Nature of our very existence as that wave itself.

So what you are saying is that you believe we have God’s nature within us, the combination of divine and human natures within us (hypostatic union?) I do not believe that. I do believe we have God’s attributes within us, but not God’s nature. Not even the Prophets share God’s nature although they are different from us in that they are made differently, not something we can ever understand... As I told a Christian today, they are kind of like a God-man and that is why they can be mediators between God and man.

 

[Trailblazer]

@ Windwalker

You said: I do not believe God communicates in terms of human concepts. God communicates God's Being in us, that God Is, that God exists. And the essence of what that is, exists within us, as the Wetness of the Ocean is 100% the same wetness as the Ocean is in its infinite, endless Being.

Okay, so you believe that God’s Essence is within us. Can you explain what you mean by that? How does that manifest in us?

You said: All "revelation" is the human mind's translation of the Being of God into our human sphere, through our own individuality within God as a human. God is not a human being. We are. We speak what God is, to us. That's the "revelation".

Can you explain what you mean by that? Do you mean that by what God is in us we can speak and reveal who God is? So what God is to us is what God is? So God is whatever we experience God as? The first question that comes to mind is how we can know if our experiences are genuine or just imaginary or even delusional? What is there to measure them against, what is the standard by which to measure them?

You said: There is a big difference between non-rational, and irrational. While God may transcend rationality, making the Knowledge of God a non-rational affair, this does not need to be a violation of reason, or rationality itself. One does not rationally experience love. Love is not irrational.

I agree that non-rational is different from irrational. However, I think that the way by which we acquire Knowledge of God should be rational, because otherwise there is no way to know it is really Knowledge of God, as opposed to our own imagination.

You said: Now as far as God doesn't exist inside our bodies, then you have declared that God doesn't exist everywhere, and yourself just made God finite.

I do not see it that way at all. That God is infinite does not mean God exists everywhere. It means what this definition says:

Infinite: limitless or endless in space, extent, or size; impossible to measure or calculate. https://www.google.com/search

That God exists everywhere is the definition of omnipresent but that still does not mean that God exists in our bodies; rather it means that God is everywhere all at once so God knows everything everywhere all the time. That does not require that we are part of God, because God does not need us for anything at all, God is fully self-sufficient. A rather silly analogy would be like a prison guard that knows what all his prisoners are up to but he does not need them for anything and he is not part of them; he is an overseer... God is the great overseer.

You said: The irrationality at this point, is the wall that dualism hits where rationality falls apart. The irrationality is to try to make the Infinite fit within a dualistic system which divides this from that. That is where irrationality, violations of logic begin to fall all over itself. Speaking of God in terms of the Absolute with a dualistic system will result in irrationality. You have to move beyond duality if you truly wish for it to not violate reason.

There is no contradiction between infinite and dualism. In fact they fit nicely together. God is infinite and we are finite creatures and in that sense we are different from God, and separate. Infinite means limitless or endless in space, extent, or size; impossible to measure or calculate. Only God is infinite. We are finite.

I said: In fact, it is the opposite because any God that was accessible to finite humans would cease to be Infinite.

You said: Why? No one is claiming the ego can contain the whole of God. No one is claiming the wave can say of itself, "I alone am the Ocean," denying all other waves or the Ocean itself. The wave is both the wave, and the Ocean. My wave, your wave, all waves. Humility says, "I as the wave am not the Ocean itself. I am the Ocean as this wave. I am a wave, because the Ocean becomes me".

So, you are saying that we are both human and divine by nature? I cannot buy that at all, as is said earlier on. Do you consider that humble to say that we all have a divine nature and that we can become like God? I think we have the potential to perfectly reflect God’s attributes, be like God, but we cannot BE God; not even Prophets can BE God... they can only reflect God’s attributes and reveal God’s will to us... NOBODY can ever share God’s nature, or know God’s nature.

“Exalted, immeasurably exalted, art Thou above the strivings of mortal man to unravel Thy mystery, to describe Thy glory, or even to hint at the nature of Thine Essence. For whatever such strivings may accomplish, they never can hope to transcend the limitations imposed upon Thy creatures, inasmuch as these efforts are actuated by Thy decree, and are begotten of Thine invention. The loftiest sentiments which the holiest of saints can express in praise of Thee, and the deepest wisdom which the most learned of men can utter in their attempts to comprehend Thy nature, all revolve around that Center Which is wholly subjected to Thy sovereignty, Which adoreth Thy Beauty, and is propelled through the movement of Thy Pen.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 3-4