The implications of God's existence or lack thereof

[LuisDantas]

However, rational analysis does not guarantee ethical behavior. One needs an ethical standards to live by, some kind of guidelines. Otherwise, people can make up their own morality and anything goes.
~~ Yes, responsible is a better word since atheists have nobody to be accountable to except themselves and their loved ones.

I think we have stumbled into a fundamental disagreement between the two of us about the nature and origin of ethics.

Ethics, it is very clear to me, is applied reason. It makes no sense to trust anything but rational analysis in order to pursue and develop it. It takes active reason to develop and improve any guidelines that might happen to be of ethical value.

 

[Thief]

I am new to this forum. I came here about 10 days ago. This will be the first thread I post.

I notice that people talk a lot about religion but I have not seen many threads about God. I belong to a religion but I am more interested in discussing God and all the implications of God’s existence or lack thereof, than in discussing religions and their beliefs and doctrines.

What are the implications of God's existence or lack thereof? Why does it matter if we believe in God?

According to my religion we were created to know and worship God. I sure do not know the inner thoughts and feelings of anyone except myself and those closest to me who have shared those, but as I look around in American society it sure does not seem as if most people are very focused on God. Rather, the focus seems to be on the material world and personal happiness. This bothers me a lot, maybe more than it should, but I feel very much alone because I have no interest in those things anymore.

I have been a member of my religion for 47 years but I have either ignored God or was angry at God for most of that time. I rarely participated in any religious activities, although I tried to follow the teachings and laws of my religion. Then about five years ago I came to a turning point. I decided I needed to do something about my lack of relationship with God and I also decided I wanted to try to do something with my religion. So I embarked upon a journey to learn what I had never known about my religion when I first joined. I have learned so much, mostly by posting on various forums and responding to questions posed to me which required I do a lot of reading and explaining.

Concurrently, I have been trying to figure out what to do about my personal relationship with God, or should I say a lack thereof. This continues to be a matter of great concern, especially how to worship God, which to me means loving God.

It has now been five years since I started what I consider a spiritual journey, and my whole perspective on life has changed as a result of putting my entire focus on my religion and God. Although I know I am a lot happier now than ever before in my life, I have mixed feelings about this because I feel very much alone on this journey of mine. Moreover, sometimes I question what I am doing when I look around and see other people involved in the material world, and they seem so happy with the things they enjoy.

I have spiritual happiness but my material life is a constant struggle, partly because many material world duties have not been tended to as I feel they should be since there are only so many hours in a day. But which is more important, God or the material world? According to my religion, “the world is like the vapor in a desert, which the thirsty dreameth to be water and striveth after it with all his might, until when he cometh unto it, he findeth it to be mere illusion.” Gleanings, p. 328 I truly believe that and that is how I got myself on this spiritual journey. Now I cannot seem to get my old life back, but why would I want to?

I gave up religion.
the more of scripture I read , the more I dropped the dogmatic methods.

I don't have a congregation, and no one follows me
no list of prayers
no list of must believe items
no hat for your head
no rug for your knee
no beads for your hand

no rituals, no ceremonies
no structure to visit and no donations to be made

my relationship to the Creator is developing with each post I make

heaven is watching (so to speak)

 

[Thief]

Absolutely not. No thinking atheist or agnostic believes the big bang happened for no reason. Their position is simply one of; we don't know the reason. Ignorance is not denial.

.

if there was a reason......would it not be God thinking it?

 

[Skwim]

if there was a reason......would it not be God thinking it?

Don't know why. If I recognize the reason you were late for dinner would it be god thinking it?

.

 

[Dan Bruce]

I've written a booklet titled PROOF OF GOD. See if it presents anything new that gives you food for thought about the existence of God. It's available as a free download in PDF format at: http://www.prophecysociety.org/PDF/PG_FREE.pdf

 

[Thief]

Don't know why. If I recognize the reason you were late for dinner would it be god thinking it?

.

and if I recognize your lack of faith.....would I be God?

 

[Frater Sisyphus]

As a pantheist I see no difference, practically speaking.

God IS the universe.

 

[Thief]

I think we have stumbled into a fundamental disagreement between the two of us about the nature and origin of ethics.

Ethics, it is very clear to me, is applied reason. It makes no sense to trust anything but rational analysis in order to pursue and develop it. It takes active reason to develop and improve any guidelines that might happen to be of ethical value.

Let us assume (as a proof is otherwise needed)....
there IS a Greater form of life

we should then listen and take heed any guideline given by that Greater form

but as we live in this life we can can held responsible under the laws of men
whether a true ethic is there or not

 

[dfnj]

As a pantheist I see no difference, practically speaking.

God IS the universe.

An omnipotent God can be both types at the same time.

 

[Skwim]

and if I recognize your lack of faith.....would I be God?

No more so than "if there was a reason......would it not be God thinking it."

.

 

[Trailblazer]

Great to see you here.

I guess the implications if there is a God or Not, is if there is any purpose why we exist at all!

Thanks for the welcome. tI is nice to finally SEE some Baha’is on a forum… I have been going it alone on these forums for four years, not that I mind.

As for knowing what the purpose of our existence is, for Baha’is that is an easy one: Short Obligatory Prayer

It is the doing of it that is not that easy.

Regards, Susan

 

[Trailblazer]

The Baha'i practices can be very brief and well suited to the modern well and busy lifes.

How long to do Baha'i practices take?
Short obligatory prayer - one minute
Reciting a verse from the sacred writings morning and evening - one minute
Reciting the greatest name 95 times - two minutes.
That's less than five minutes each day. If you are looking to build a relationship with God, there's your starting point.
Have you ever enjoyed the company of others?

~~ Yes, that is part of the Baha’i formula for getting close to God, but one size does not fit all. It is not really the time element but rather I am not much for rituals. I do my best to do what is actually required, but I am not going to do something that does not feel right to me because it would not be from the heart, and God would know.
~~ I have never really fit the Baha’i mold, but I believe in Baha’u’llah is a Manifestation of God and I definitely believe that the teachings of Baha’u’llah are what humanity need at this stage in its evolution, so I consider myself a Baha’i, albeit a bit of a recalcitrant.
~~ It is not that I do not enjoy the company of others, but I am an introvert so I prefer being alone. I also prefer being at home to going out because I dislike traffic and driving. In addition, I have a lot of responsibilities so I do not have time for socializing.
~~ Also, I do not feel that I fit in in most social circles. That is why I enjoy the forums, because I can be myself and not have to put on any airs. Also, I get to talk to all kinds of people about all kinds of things, that which is not really possible in a real world social situation.

I think there are about 10 Baha'is currently posting on RF. I don't really think of my self as seperate from anyoen else here. What other sites have you been on?

~~ I have only seen about six Baha’is on this forum so far. I know a couple of them from other forums. The other forums I have posted on are in the Delphi Forums group, and the primary forum I had been posting on there is called Believer, un-believer and ex-believer. I also posted on Planet Baha’i, Skeptics & Heretics, Alternatives for Humanity,The Holy Trinity, and the Opinion forum. I have my own forum on Delphi called The Spiritual Horizon which was pretty active when I first started it in 2014, but it became pretty inactive after that because I started spending my time on so many other forums.
~~ Even though I consider myself different from most people, I do not consider myself separate from anyone else anywhere.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm a little perplexed here, because this reads a bit contradictory with respect to how I understand religions. Theism in of itself - that is, acceptance of some particular god-concept - says and does very little in of itself. It's the framework of religion that provides its substance. One cannot even begin to discuss the implications of a particular god-concept without having a surrounding theology telling stories about the nature of those gods, and those narratives about the nature of the gods come out of religions. Thus, I'm confused by your angle here. Could you perhaps clarify your thoughts here? Can't guarantee I'll understand, but I can try.

I agree that narratives about the nature of the God (gods) come out of religions thus implications of a particular god-concept and the surrounding theology tells stories about the nature of God (gods). I guess what I was after here was a discussion about God (gods) vs. no God (gods) in general but I can see that is pretty unrealistic because first God (gods) have to be defined. I mean there needs to be a conception of God (gods) before it can be discussed. So as you can see, people are throwing out their various beliefs/non-beliefs, how they relate to the god-concept. This has helped me to understand how many of those there are.

The nature of the Abrahamic god-concept makes it rather difficult to parse together with day-to-day living. Or at least that's my general impression of it as an outsider. For me, there's not a disconnect between the gods, the material world, and happiness like there seems to be in Abrahamic religions. I don't know how I would navigate such a disconnect myself if that were part of my tradition. The question you ask later - "which is more important, God or the material world" doesn't even come up for me since they are the same thing for me.

I am not that familiar with the other Abrahamic religions so I do not really know exactly what they teach. In my religion, the Baha’i Faith, there really is no disconnect between God, the material world, and happiness like there as there might be in the other Abrahamic religions; at least not according to what Baha’is believe. However, I am kind of different than most Baha’is, so I see the disconnect where other Baha’is do not seem to see it. Let me explain and in so doing I want to draw a parallel between what Jesus said and what Baha’u’llah (the Prophet Founder of the Baha’i Faith) wrote.

Matthew 6:24 “No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.”

“Cleanse from your hearts the love of worldly things, from your tongues every remembrance except His remembrance, from your entire being whatsoever may deter you from beholding His face, or may tempt you to follow the promptings of your evil and corrupt inclinations. Let God be your fear, O people, and be ye of them that tread the path of righteousness.......
Dispute not with any one concerning the things of this world and its affairs, for God hath abandoned them to such as have set their affection upon them. Out of the whole world He hath chosen for Himself the hearts of men—hearts which the hosts of revelation and of utterance can subdue….” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 275, 278
http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-128.html.utf8?query=hearts&action=highlight#gr11
But then there is this:
“Should a man wish to adorn himself with the ornaments of the earth, to wear its apparels, or partake of the benefits it can bestow, no harm can befall him, if he alloweth nothing whatever to intervene between him and God, for God hath ordained every good thing, whether created in the heavens or in the earth, for such of His servants as truly believe in Him. Eat ye, O people, of the good things which God hath allowed you, and deprive not yourselves from His wondrous bounties. Render thanks and praise unto Him, and be of them that are truly thankful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 276
~~ To be clear, Baha’is are not supposed to be ascetics and that means we are not supposed to hide away from other people like monks do. We are supposed to raise families and be fully engaged in society. However, that is different from being attached to the worldly things. We are enjoined to be detached from the worldly things.Keep in mind that I am quoting the mystical Writings, but there are over 177 instances that refer to“world” in the context of detachment in one text alone. I am not close to God Imo but I think one reason is because for most of my life I did not know of this particular teaching. Now, having discovered it, I take it very seriously.
~~ Can you explain why there is no disconnect for you? Maybe I can learn something I need to know.

At any rate, it sounds like you have had quite the journey beginning to develop a meaningful relationship with your god. That does take a lot of work - like any relationship, really - regardless of the deity you're working with. I'm not sure I could offer much of worth when it comes to developing your relationship with your god. There are doubtless others here who can aid in this.

I am trying to go on a journey, but I have not even gotten out of the door.

But to get back to this bit for a moment: IMO, "existence" is a very shallow way of looking at things. I don't intend that as an insult, it's just to me existence of all things is a given and the question is what do I do with that. From there, your god(s) matter as much as you allow them to matter in your life. It's your story of life's meaningfulness, and you get to write that narrative. Well, many pass off that narrative responsibility to someone else and follow stories of a prescribed tradition or philosophy. That's okay too. Still, I think it's good to answer the "why does it matter" question for ourselves at least some of the time. And then maybe ask "why did I respond that way, and who taught me that way of thinking about it?"

And that is precisely what I meant when I asked about “implications.” I was looking for some feedback as to how belief in God (or gods) plays out or how non-belief in a God (or gods) play out for nonbelievers). What do people DO with beliefs and non-beliefs?
~~ According to my religion we were created to know and worship God, so what I ask myself is what the implications of that are. I mean how does that play out in my life?How should it play out? I know what I am enjoined to do according to my religion as there is a lot written about the various responsibilities, but more emphasis is put on some responsibilities than on others. I tend to focus on the top priorities rather than spreading myself thin because that is my style. However, at the end of the day we all come from different backgrounds so we all see things differently and do things differently, as it should be, because otherwise we would just be robots…

 

[Trailblazer]

Hold on a sec. You said:

"Again, God does not need our worship for His sake, it is for our sake that God wants us to worship Him."​

"For our sake" means for our benefit; fulfilling some need we have. We gain some benefit by worshiping him .So I'm asking, what is this benefit-need?

However, now you say---contradicting yourself---that it's not for some benefit to us that we worship god, but "it is about fulfilling the purpose of our existence." which, not benefiting us, must benefit god---who else? The purpose of our existence on earth is to benefit god, which would contradict your previous" God does not need our worship for His sake."

So, if our purpose on earth is not to benefit either god or ourselves, what is it.

I am sorry what I said was so confusing. Let me start from scratch. We worship God for our own benefit. God wants us to worship Him, but that is because God loves us and worshiping God benefits us. God does not need anything from humans because God is self-subsisting and detached from all things.

Don’t you think that fulfilling the purpose of our existence is a benefit to us? What else could ever be more important than that? The purpose of our existence on earth is not to benefit God because God is self-subsisting and as such God has no needs at all.

“The one true God, exalted be His glory, hath wished nothing for Himself. The allegiance of mankind profiteth Him not, neither doth its perversity harm Him. The Bird of the Realm of Utterance voiceth continually this call: “All things have I willed for thee, and thee, too, for thine own sake…….” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 260

According to my beliefs, the purpose of our existence is to know and worship God. Worshiping God means loving God, but first we have to know God’s attributes and God’s will for us, which is really all we can know about God.The only way we can know God’s attributes and God’s will for us is through what the Messenger of God reveals.

The passage above continues and explains in a nutshell the will of God, what God wants us to know:

“……… If the learned and worldly-wise men of this age were to allow mankind to inhale the fragrance of fellowship and love, every understanding heart would apprehend the meaning of true liberty, and discover the secret of undisturbed peace and absolute composure. Were the earth to attain this station and be illumined with its light it could then be truly said of it: “Thou shall see in it no hollows or rising hills.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 260

The way we worship (love) God is by loving God’s creation, especially our fellow human beings. If love is not an action it is not really love.

 

[Trailblazer]

God exists and I will prove it to you. God is just a word. What the word God means is how we use it. God exists in our mind-space. No one denies the existence of the word God. God represents all that is, all that will be, all that could ever be imagined, and all that could ever possibly be realized.

It does matter to believe in God because God provides us a sacred meaning to our being here.

That is certainly an interesting perspective. Now let me explain how I look at this. If God was just a word and did not exist in reality, I would have no interest in believing in God or worshiping God, because I think it would be silly to worship a nonentity. So if I was not certain that God existed, I would be an agnostic, looking to determine if God exists or not. Sure, it might give our lives meaning to live as if a God existed, but I think it would be more honest to find meaning as an atheist, if God does not exist.

Some people prefer not to use the word God or experience the benefits for having any sacred meanings in their lives. For many people, reality is just random patterns of energy swirling around according to the laws of physics with no pattern having any more meaning than any other. I say to them that they are right that it is meaningless but it is also meaningless that it is meaningless. Therefore, since it doesn't matter from their point of view, we can choose meaningful over meaningless and thereby enjoy the benefits of living a life having sacred meaning. It doesn't have to be proven or be a decision based on reason or evidence. Choosing to believe in God is an irrational choice based on no reason and no evidence that is consciously made choice as an article of faith.

Again, that is certainly an interesting perspective. Now let me explain how I look at this. God doesn't have to be proven to exist but the decision to believe in God has to be a decision based on reason and evidence. Choosing to believe in God for no good reason and with no good evidence is (to me) an irrational choice. It is in effect blind faith.

To put it simply the purpose of religion is to provide us a sacred meaning to our lives. To answer the question why does it matter if we believe in God you have to answer the question what is the purpose of God's existence? Then you can answer the question what is the purpose of our existence? Since there will not be any evidence supporting our answers our answers will be articles of faith. But whatever answers we come up with they should be the best possible answers that provide us the greatest amount of divine meaning in our lives.

Again, that is certainly an interesting perspective. Now let me explain how I look at this. I think that one purpose of religion is to provide us a sacred meaning to our lives, and this is the mystical part of religion that is reflected in our relationship to God, ourselves and other people. Another purpose of religion which is more pragmatic is to provide teachings and laws for us to live by. Baha’u’llah wrote:

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.” Gleanings, p. 81
(((Continued...)))

 

[Trailblazer]

Maybe someone could come up with better answers but here are mine. God's purpose for existing is to realize God's omnipotence. Our purpose in existing is to be a finite component of God realizing His infinite omnipotent experience in reality.

Again, that is certainly an interesting perspective. Now let me explain how I look at this. I believe God is All-Knowing, All-Powerful and All-Wise. God does not have a purpose for existing; God simply exists and always has existed. However, God does have a function, and that function is to keep the universe going, God having brought it into existence. If for one moment God’s mercy and grace were to be withheld from the world, it would completely perish. That mercy and grace is bestowed upon mankind by means of the Messengers that God sends with the Holy Spirit and a “message” mankind needs to evolve spiritually and materially. This of course is just my belief.

Our purpose for existing is to know and love God. That is accomplished by living according to the will of God by living according to what has been revealed by God to humanity. Many people are living this without even being part of any religion because these eternal spiritual verities have been in the world since the beginning of time.

So if we are here to help God realize His omnipotence what behaviors in our lives are most important to God? Again, our answer to this question will not be based on evidence but will be a chosen article of faith. So we might as well choose the best answer to the question. I think morality matters to God. And God experiences what it means to have a finite experience by sharing our experiences from our perspective. So experiences we have that give us a sense of enthusiasm and a desire to participate in God's creation are the experiences that are the most important to God.

I believe in our modern society any discussion of religion must include implications of our latest and deepest understandings of nature. So another aspect of God realizing His omnipotence has to do with the deterministic nature of our Universe. For God to realize His omnipotence every possible configuration and pattern of reality must be realized. We could argue over the mechanisms of physics involved but it really doesn't matter. I think our space-time dimension of the Universe repeats over an infinite number of times until every possible pattern of energy is realized. In one space-time dimension vanilla is your favorite ice cream. In another it is chocolate. Each of us exists an infinite number of times until every possible choice we could ever possibly make gets played out to the nth degree so God can complete the realization of His omnipotence.

I believe we exist so our omnipotent God can experience the thrill of having limitations by sharing our experiences of joy and sorrow. And what makes us enthusiastic makes God enthusiastic. So the very best thing we can do to have reverence for God is by culturing our enthusiasm for participating in God's creation for ourselves and for other people. And we are against God when we make other people suffer or lose enthusiasm. The way to have the best possible relationship to God is to consciously and purposely work on cultivating enthusiasm for yourself and for other people in participating in God's creation.

Again, that is certainly an interesting perspective. Now let me explain how I look at this. I do not believe God has any limitations but I believe in a personal God that is conscious of His creation, so it is possible that God shares our experiences of joy and sorrow, so whatever makes us enthusiastic might make God enthusiastic. Indeed, I believe that God is closer to us than our life vein so God knows us better than we know our own selves.

Again, there is no evidence to support the right answers to your questions. The answers to your questions are not decisions based on reason. The answers to your questions are choices that become articles of faith. So to answer the question God or the material world we should come up with the best possible answer. I would say the answer is both are equally important. Everything we experience interacting with the material world must be thought of as being divine is the best possible answer. We are fulfilling God's purpose by participating in God's creation. When we create a fine piece of art it is sacred. Some activities in the material world like cleaning toilets that are not so pleasing. However, there is no job or no activity you do in your life that when doing it you can do it in a way that gives you the most amount of pride in your work. Having personal pride in our work gives us enthusiasm. Whatever it is we do interacting with the material world if it gives us enthusiasm then God is pleased and our lives have divine meaning.

Thanks. You are right that there is no “right answer.” I also believe that we are fulfilling God's purpose by participating in God's creation. On a day-to-day basis we all have to negotiate the material world and if we are believers we have to balance the more mundane tasks with our spiritual needs and aspirations. Those are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Maybe part of my struggle is that I simply enjoy some activities more than others and the others tend to get left by the wayside. However, they will get done eventually. It’s just money I stand to lose but luckily I have enough of it.

You only criticize and hate in other people what you do not like about your own character. Being polite means you are worthy of respect. Appreciating how other people think means you are divine.

There is certainly some truth to that. I think we also tend to criticize or even hate other people because they have a character trait or behavior we do not respect, but since we have the propensity to also have it, it reminds us of what we could become. That makes us angry because they remind us of what we could become.

But it is not just that. I think there can be a genuine criticism or anger based upon something we see in other people we do not consider moral behavior or hypocrisy. Sometimes criticisms are justified but it is rarely appropriate to express them towards others unless a real cruelty or injustice has been perpetrated.

 

[Trailblazer]

I think we have stumbled into a fundamental disagreement between the two of us about the nature and origin of ethics.

Ethics, it is very clear to me, is applied reason. It makes no sense to trust anything but rational analysis in order to pursue and develop it. It takes active reason to develop and improve any guidelines that might happen to be of ethical value.

I am not sure what you mean by applied reasoning. I think we have to apply our reasoning, but the problem as I see it is that everyone reasons differently, so that results in many different ideas about what is ethical and no standard that can bring people together.

 

[Trailblazer]

I gave up religion.
the more of scripture I read , the more I dropped the dogmatic methods.

I don't have a congregation, and no one follows me
no list of prayers
no list of must believe items
no hat for your head
no rug for your knee
no beads for your hand

no rituals, no ceremonies
no structure to visit and no donations to be made

my relationship to the Creator is developing with each post I make

heaven is watching (so to speak)

May I ask what religion you were before you gave up religion?

As I said, about five years ago I decided to give God and my religion another chance. As far as religion goes, I am not really a participant in the organized religion but I am a believer in the teachings. As far as God goes that is a work in progress.

Most of my spiritual journey has taken place on forums, reading and writing. Like you, I am developing my relationship to God through every post I make. Religious observances such as prayer and meditation and reading scriptures are supposed to get people close to God but reading and posting seems to work better for me.

 

[LuisDantas]

Let us assume (as a proof is otherwise needed)....
there IS a Greater form of life

we should then listen and take heed any guideline given by that Greater form

If we somehow know that such a form is willing and able to establish constructive guidelines for us, is that what you mean?

Sure. But that is quite a restraining parameter.

There is also the matter of what would constitute such a greater form of life. I take it that you don't mean blue whales, viruses or cockroaches.

but as we live in this life we can can held responsible under the laws of men
whether a true ethic is there or not

There is not. Laws have little more than an accidental, fleeting acquaintance of ethics, which are a far more substantial and dynamic field than law itself.

 

[LuisDantas]

I am not sure what you mean by applied reasoning. I think we have to apply our reasoning, but the problem as I see it is that everyone reasons differently, so that results in many different ideas about what is ethical and no standard that can bring people together.

That is quite true. It is also far more of a learning opportunity than a problem.