[FOR MUSLIMS] Am I, as a Christian, Officially a Disbeliever/Kaffir under these conditions?

[firedragon]

By association with one's own sincere devotion, perhaps? Meaning that we benefit from the good works, from the fruits of sincere devotion or perhaps from the generosity granted to others that are close to us?

I meant the Quran tells you not to.

You should not even make your ego your ilah.

Monotheism in Islam is not just worshiping one God and no other God like if you are worshiping Allah you should not worship Thor or a saint. Its deeper than that.

It means nothing is divine. Only THE GOD. Not not your wealth or your desire.

If you lose something, God is the only divine. Thus, dont lose yourself. If you believe in it you wont steal or cheat.

Well. Thats it.

 

[LuisDantas]

I meant the Quran tells you not to.

Thanks. Your previous post is therefore a warning against idolatry, or more precisely a reminder that the Qur'an warns against idolatry, correct?

I read it entirely wrong before this clarification. Sorry.

 

[firedragon]

Thanks. Your previous post is therefore a warning against idolatry, or more precisely a reminder that the Qur'an warns against idolatry, correct?

I read it entirely wrong before this clarification. Sorry.

No my post was not very clear. It was more like just a statement.

The fault and the honour are both mine.

 

[Patrick Silverstone]

Part of the reason comes from the post I was responding to, but there was at least one other situation when a Muslim saw the need to point out that God has no partners.

In English those words "association" and "partnership" do not really hint at politheism, but I got the impression that the intent was to deny it anyway.

Am I mistaken? Please feel free to clarify the matter to me if you want to.

I just quoted a verse from Quran "Indeed, the religion in the sight of Allah is being obedient to Him." to answer the question of the page,
"FOR MUSLIMS] Am I, as a Christian, Officially a Disbeliever/Kaffir under these conditions?"

 

[LuisDantas]

I just quoted a verse from Quran "Indeed, the religion in the sight of Allah is being obedient to Him." to answer the question of the page,
"FOR MUSLIMS] Am I, as a Christian, Officially a Disbeliever/Kaffir under these conditions?"

That is unfortunately not very easy to parse. I would even say that it requires commentary and clarification to have a clear meaning.

Would the general meaning be somewhat close to "God cares about whether you obey His will (if you happen to meet/believe in Him) and anything else is secondary"?

 

[Patrick Silverstone]

That is unfortunately not very easy to parse. I would even say that it requires commentary and clarification to have a clear meaning.

Would the general meaning be somewhat close to "God cares about whether you obey His will (if you happen to meet/believe in Him) and anything else is secondary"?

it is definitely hard to get since it is just a tiny verse of Quran. Here are some other verses before and after the one I sent you at first. (the words in parentheses are added by me)
"He has sent down upon you, the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel
Before, as guidance for the people. And He revealed the Qur'an.
...........................................................
Indeed, the religion in the sight of Allah is being obedient to Him. And those who were given the Scripture did not differ (they are considered believers and salvated) except after knowledge had come to them (they reach this conclusion that Islam is the best and the most complete religion)- out of jealous animosity between themselves. And whoever disbelieves in the verses of Allah (Bible, Torah, Quran; of course the intact version of them; not the corrupted ones), then indeed, Allah is swift in [taking] account.
So if they argue with you (Mohammad), say, "I have submitted myself to Allah in Islam, and so have those who follow me." And say to those who were given the Scripture and to the unlearned, "Have you submitted yourselves?" And if they submit in Islam, they are rightly guided; but if they turn away - then upon you is only the duty of notification. And Allah is Seeing of His servants (God knows whether they have reached this conclusion that Islam is the best and don't submit or they are not really sure)

 

[Muffled]

Could I ask if this is also what Christians believe in, if one hears the so called truth, then are they judged by not keeping that truth ?.

I do not believe any born again Christian is under judgement. We are under advisement but some hear better than others.

 

[Muffled]

Peace be on you.
1=True Christianity leads to Islam, as I believe.
2=You can think and read about Islam and pray to God for guidance.
3=Matters are b/n you and God, no one can give verdict about you. One's duty is to let other know what they know about issues. That is all.
You can check Ahmadiyya-Muslim site alislam.org if you wish.


Good wishes.

I believe it is the other way around. True Islam leads to Christianity.

I believe God can judge harshly sometimes: Qu'ran Ch 3 V 5Before this, as a guidance to the people; and He has sent down the Discrimination. Surely, those who deny the Signs of Allah shall have a severe punishment. And Allah is Mighty, Possessor of the power to requite

I believe this is a rather general statement. A Christian has accepted the signs of Allah also so does not fall under this judgement

 

[Muffled]

Hello Bjohn74,

I don't have a complete answer to all of this, but I have a Quraanic verse to share. It is (4:48): "God does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills. And those who associate others with God has certainly fabricated a tremendous sin."

The verse above states that anything and everything can be forgiven, except worshiping other than Him. And again, only God knows what goes in one's heart and only he decides if such an act exists and actually applies to that verse in the true definition of association in worship. The verse only states the default position and a general statement of worship association. Who know if there are exception in this huge religion, sophisticated and deeply detailed religion. Who knows, maybe your belief in God is not the complete definition of worship association that verse talks about.

However, those are just attempt to analyze the verse. The default position generally and simply put is that an association with God is an unforgivable sin that send to Hell. That is in case having it unforgivable sends to Hell and not just a sin that cannot be forgiven. Keep in mind that Hell in Islam is not eternal for everyone, but that's another point.

I personally am not sure if believing that Jesus (peace be upon him) being God's Son is a worshiping association with God since it is different than believing he is God. It is a sin, this much I can tell, but if I'm right in my thought, it is a forgivable sin, and God knows better.

Believe it or not, even full fledged Muslims could go to Hell and serve a sentence (if this life's same expression works) for sometime until they pay the debt, then go to Paradise. Muslims are not perfect and they do crimes deserving of punishment too.

Don't worry about Hadeeth too much for now.

May God guide you to the right path.

I believe Muslims tend to think Christians are associating something else with God by way of the Trinity but that is not the case.

 

[Smart_Guy]

I believe Muslims tend to think Christians are associating something else with God by way of the Trinity but that is not the case.

Believe me, I try to find it not the case, out of caring, love and consideration for Christians, but I keep going in circles and coming back to the same spot. This includes the elements of the trinity, calling for Mother of God sometimes, saying the Son or the Father at times instead of the most obvious word "God", confessing sins to priests instead to God, asking those priests for forgiveness instead of God, etc. Yet I still don't take if for a granted perfectly and still have hope that I could be wrong, as I implied in that other post. But that's just a belief or an uncertainty as you may call it. It's taken as so neutrally without disrespecting modern Christianity beliefs.

 

[LuisDantas]

Believe me, I try to find it not the case, out of caring, love and consideration for Christians, but I keep going in circles and coming back to the same spot. This includes the elements of the trinity, calling for Mother of God sometimes, saying the Son or the Father at times instead of the most obvious word "God", confessing sins to priests instead to God, asking those priests for forgiveness instead of God, etc. Yet I still don't take if for a granted perfectly and still have hope that I could be wrong, as I implied in that other post. But that's just a belief or an uncertainty as you may call it. It's taken as so neutrally without disrespecting modern Christianity beliefs.

Would it be fair to say that for most Muslims it is very important to leave no doubt that God is one and only?

Trust me, that is a very odd belief for a religion that claims to be suitable for all of humanity. It could certainly never suit me.

To me pretty much the opposite is self-evident: the exact beliefs about God that any given person might have can never be all that important and it is a grave mistake to take them, whichever they might happen to be, too seriously.

In all honesty, Islam seems to be far too busy worrying about God to have much of a chance of ever becoming an actual religion. I fully expect that statement to sound all-out absurd to any Muslims who might hear of it. But so are the breaks.

 

[psychoslice]

I do not believe any born again Christian is under judgement. We are under advisement but some hear better than others.

So are saying that a so called born again Christian cannot sin ?.

 

[faroukfarouk]

I have heard that any Christian who hears the Truth/Message/Signs of islam but denies it is punished by Allah! Content ive read that may be connected to this are how Islam means submission, Allah is the only god, Jesus wasnt son of god, god himself nor crucified and the context of violent verses. I still believe Jesus was gods son & crucified but im undecided on the Trinity theory. And I also havent read about the evidence to these messages. Plus I haven't read the Hadiths. Does this still mean that I will still be sent to hell if islam is the true religion?

Peace upon you my friend.
You asked a very intelligent question.
I am going to give you a frank answer.
Anyone who is not in Islam their abode is the hell-fire.
My apologies if my answer is offensive to you but you have to understand that the truth does hurts.
Peace

 

[Limo]

I have heard that any Christian who hears the Truth/Message/Signs of islam but denies it is punished by Allah! Content ive read that may be connected to this are how Islam means submission, Allah is the only god, Jesus wasnt son of god, god himself nor crucified and the context of violent verses. I still believe Jesus was gods son & crucified but im undecided on the Trinity theory. And I also havent read about the evidence to these messages. Plus I haven't read the Hadiths. Does this still mean that I will still be sent to hell if islam is the true religion?

Allah is the Almighty the Creator the One
He has sent many prophets with many books. The true belief in the true books by the true prophets have one main message "no god but Allah"
Noah, Ibrahim, Mosa, Elmesiah, and last one Muhammad have the same message
The difference between all of these prophets is in laws and the targeted people.
All followers of Mosa till 30 CE are good people and will be in paradise

But when Elmesiah (not the fictitious character Jesus Christ) the human being prophet is appointed as a prophet all good people should have followed him
All people who followed the true prophet Elmesiah are saved and in paradise . This is valid till 610 CE,
when prophet Muhammed is appointed as a prophet people who followed the true prophet Elmesiah should follow prophet Muhammed

Prophet Muhammed's message is the only valid message that Allah accepts and doesn't accept any other belief or law even if it's of previous true prophet

Any deviation from "no god but Allah and prophet Muhammed is a true messenger from Allah and for x-christian Isa ibn Mariam is servant of Allah and his messenger" implies that the person is a kafr ie non Muslim and will go to hill eternally and no way to be saved

 

[Patrick Silverstone]

Peace upon you my friend.
You asked a very intelligent question.
I am going to give you a frank answer.
Anyone who is not in Islam their abode is the hell-fire.
My apologies if my answer is offensive to you but you have to understand that the truth does hurts.
Peace

I don't agree with you my friend. Islam is not that harsh. Here are some verses from the beginning of Al Imran:

"He has sent down upon you, the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel
Before, as guidance for the people. And He revealed the Qur'an.
...........................................................
Indeed, the religion in the sight of Allah is being obedient to Him. And those who were given the Scripture did not differ (they are considered believers and salvated) except after knowledge had come to them (they reach this conclusion that Islam is the best and the most complete religion)- out of jealous animosity between themselves. And whoever disbelieves in the verses of Allah (Bible, Torah, Quran; of course the intact version of them; not the corrupted ones), then indeed, Allah is swift in [taking] account.
*The words in the parentheses are mine.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Would it be fair to say that for most Muslims it is very important to leave no doubt that God is one and only?

Trust me, that is a very odd belief for a religion that claims to be suitable for all of humanity. It could certainly never suit me.

To me pretty much the opposite is self-evident: the exact beliefs about God that any given person might have can never be all that important and it is a grave mistake to take them, whichever they might happen to be, too seriously.

In all honesty, Islam seems to be far too busy worrying about God to have much of a chance of ever becoming an actual religion. I fully expect that statement to sound all-out absurd to any Muslims who might hear of it. But so are the breaks.

Not sure if I understand the question, but Islam is in the first place meant to identify God and worship Him as the one and only, and to leave no doubt about it. Everything else is just to lead to that and to get along with being human, giving us a way of life to live on since we need such a thing as heavily socializing beings. There are other details in between, but that is basically it, and it goes along with what I mentioned in my first post here.

Acceptance of ideologies/rules/laws/etc. differs from person to person due to a number of reasons, including logical and personal. Some people even approve of evil head on right to our faces without any hesitation at all (just an example, not that I'm comparing it with your view), so I understand and respect your view about it. I believe this is why God put rules and teachings regarding non Muslims, being non Muslims. Islam is full or references of humanity, believers, and people of the book, instead of just Islam and Muslims. I believe God understands that very well, so regardless to the default position of his laws, I have full belief in Him in His ultimate judgement one really deserves.

There is a difference between default position and ultimate judgement.

 

[LuisDantas]

Wow.

I thought nothing was further from what I could conceivably believe in than Spiritism. But Islam is giving me serious reason to reconsider.

It is almost like it is meant not to be believed in.

 

[Patrick Silverstone]

Allah is the Almighty the Creator the One
He has sent many prophets with many books. The true belief in the true books by the true prophets have one main message "no god but Allah"
Noah, Ibrahim, Mosa, Elmesiah, and last one Muhammad have the same message
The difference between all of these prophets is in laws and the targeted people.
All followers of Mosa till 30 CE are good people and will be in paradise
But when Elmesiah (not the fictitious character Jesus Christ) the human being prophet is appointed as a prophet all good people should have followed him
All people who followed the true prophet Elmesiah are saved and in paradise till 610
Now when prophet Muhammed is appointed as a prophet people who followed the true prophet Elmesiah should follow prophet Muhammed

Prophet Muhammed's message is theory valid message that Allah accepts and doesn't accept any other belief or law even if it's of previous true prophet

Any deviation from "no god but Allah and prophet Muhammed is a true messenger from Allah and for x-christian Isa ibn Mariam is servant of Allah and his messenger" implies that the person is kafr ie non Muslim and will go to hill eternally and no way to be saved

All prophets sent by God to authenticate the ones sent before him and inform people of the future prophets. I agree with you that all prophets had the same message. I would like to add a point to yours: the reason of sending a new prophet each time was that the followers of each religion deviated from the truth and/or altered and distorted the holy book of their time for different reasons, e.g. manipulating people, financial reasons, etc.
But I don't agree with you that the followers of the previous religions will be cast into hell. They will be punished only if they reach the fact that Islam is the best religion and avoid converting into it out of racial bias or any other reasons.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Wow.

I thought nothing was further from what I could conceivably believe in than Spiritism. But Islam is giving me serious reason to reconsider.

It is almost like it is meant not to be believed in.

Believe me, I have the exact same wow at a conclusion such as the above!. I'm so very puzzled, specially that Islam has billions of followers already.

 

[Pastek]

I have heard that any Christian who hears the Truth/Message/Signs of islam but denies it is punished by Allah! Content ive read that may be connected to this are how Islam means submission, Allah is the only god, Jesus wasnt son of god, god himself nor crucified and the context of violent verses. I still believe Jesus was gods son & crucified but im undecided on the Trinity theory. And I also havent read about the evidence to these messages. Plus I haven't read the Hadiths. Does this still mean that I will still be sent to hell if islam is the true religion?

It's very difficult to answer this question but i'll try.

Rejecting Islam when you heard about it means you rejected what Allah said and asked you to believe about.
So you can end in Hell for that.
Imagine someone heard the message of Jesus but rejected it. It's like he rejected God because Jesus came with God's message.

But if you are a (good) christian and the message of Islam came in a distorted way then it's not your fault.
You will be judged according to your faith.
Let say you haven't had the chance to read the Quran or meet (good) muslims then the religion correct for you is Christianity and God will judge you according to this faith.

The fact that you believe Jesus was crucified won't lead you to Hell.
You can believe that Isaac was the sacrified son too, it won't lead you to Hell.
It's ok because you believe in your Book and that's what your Book said.

Believing that Allah had a son is a big sin, and believing that Jesus is God is like polytheism.
Those beliefs are not teachings of Jesus, it's wrong interpretations from the Church.

It's true that Christians are still called "People of the Book" even with this belief but i think it's because of the core of the religion.
There's a confusion because of the Trinity's teaching but the "base" (Scriptures) is good.

As a muslim i would say there's a big risk to end in Hell but i can't say you'll be in Hell for sure because i am not God.

Remember that the unforgivable sin is giving partners to God (polytheism).

In Islam asking help (praying) to someone else that God is "shirk" (association).
So praying Jesus, Mary, Joseph or mother Theresa is all the same.

By the way there's muslims who also go in some tombs and pray(ask help) to prophets and saints, this is shirk and they end in the same sin as christians. So they also risk Hell (even if they believe in the Quran).