I have heard that any Christian who hears the Truth/Message/Signs of islam but denies it is punished by Allah! Content ive read that may be connected to this are how Islam means submission, Allah is the only god, Jesus wasnt son of god, god himself nor crucified and the context of violent verses. I still believe Jesus was gods son & crucified but im undecided on the Trinity theory. And I also havent read about the evidence to these messages. Plus I haven't read the Hadiths. Does this still mean that I will still be sent to hell if islam is the true religion?
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[FOR MUSLIMS] Am I, as a Christian, Officially a Disbeliever/Kaffir under these conditions?
Kelloggs
Member
"I have heard that any Christian who hears the Truth/Message/Signs of islam but denies it is punished by Allah!"
If you read their Hadith, Christians and Jews are considered the People of The Book/Covenant (Dhimmi). In a way you're to be let go and not killed like the Pagans.
Some quotes from the khilafah Website in which may refer directly to the Hadith:
The Messenger of Allah (saw) said: “He who harms a person under covenant, or charged him more than he can, I will argue against him on the Day of Judgement.”11
The Messenger of Allah (saw) said: “He who hurts a dhimmi hurts me, and he who hurts me annoys Allah.”12
(http://www.khilafah.com/dhimmi-non-muslims-living-in-the-khilafah-2/)
I believe different Imam or Muslim elders have different opinions about this matter too. if that direct quote is correct, and that if the Hadith is widely accepted amongst the Muslim, then that's what it says.
"I still believe Jesus was gods son & crucified but im undecided on the Trinity theory"
The word Trinity is not explicitly mentioned in the Bible. It is widely accepted that the term is coined by Tertullian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity)
You will read verses in the New Testament that indicates the Trinitarian relationship:
John 1:1 NRSV
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
John 1:14 NRSV
"And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father’s only son"
John 1:32 NRSV
"And John testified, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him."
John 10:30 NRSV
"The Father and I are one.”
John 10:33-35 NRSV
" The Jews answered, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you, but for blasphemy, because you, though only a human being, are making yourself God.” Jesus answered, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, you are gods’? If those to whom the word of God came were called ‘gods’—and the scripture cannot be annulled"
Colossians 2:9 NRSV
"For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily"
"And I also havent read about the evidence to these messages."
Evidence to what messages? I have laid it down to you in the above answers
"Plus I haven't read the Hadiths."
I quoted some in my answers. Its' digital version should also be widely available.
" Does this still mean that I will still be sent to hell if islam is the true religion"
I cannot answer this for you. You need to decide for yourself.
Hope this helps,
K
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psychoslice
Veteran Member
Could I ask if this is also what Christians believe in, if one hears the so called truth, then are they judged by not keeping that truth ?.
DawudTalut
Peace be upon you.
Peace be on you.
1=True Christianity leads to Islam, as I believe.
2=You can think and read about Islam and pray to God for guidance.
3=Matters are b/n you and God, no one can give verdict about you. One's duty is to let other know what they know about issues. That is all.
You can check Ahmadiyya-Muslim site alislam.org if you wish.
Good wishes.
Hello Bjohn74,
I don't have a complete answer to all of this, but I have a Quraanic verse to share. It is (4:48): "God does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills. And those who associate others with God has certainly fabricated a tremendous sin."
The verse above states that anything and everything can be forgiven, except worshiping other than Him. And again, only God knows what goes in one's heart and only he decides if such an act exists and actually applies to that verse in the true definition of association in worship. The verse only states the default position and a general statement of worship association. Who know if there are exception in this huge religion, sophisticated and deeply detailed religion. Who knows, maybe your belief in God is not the complete definition of worship association that verse talks about.
However, those are just attempt to analyze the verse. The default position generally and simply put is that an association with God is an unforgivable sin that send to Hell. That is in case having it unforgivable sends to Hell and not just a sin that cannot be forgiven. Keep in mind that Hell in Islam is not eternal for everyone, but that's another point.
I personally am not sure if believing that Jesus (peace be upon him) being God's Son is a worshiping association with God since it is different than believing he is God. It is a sin, this much I can tell, but if I'm right in my thought, it is a forgivable sin, and God knows better.
Believe it or not, even full fledged Muslims could go to Hell and serve a sentence (if this life's same expression works) for sometime until they pay the debt, then go to Paradise. Muslims are not perfect and they do crimes deserving of punishment too.
Don't worry about Hadeeth too much for now.
May God guide you to the right path.
firedragon
Veteran Member
No.
Servant_of_the_One1
Well-Known Member
Prophet PBUH said those who hears about him but rejects to follow him then they will enter hellfire.
Rejecting one prophet is equal to rejecting all prophets.
Know, that ur rejection of prophet Muhammad pbuh means u also rejected Noah Moses Abraham and Jesus peace be upon them.
U are disbeliever in the sight of Allah because u disbelieve in his messsengers and u blaspheme Allah swt by saying that Jesus is His son.
Rejecting one prophet is equal to rejecting all prophets.
Know, that ur rejection of prophet Muhammad pbuh means u also rejected Noah Moses Abraham and Jesus peace be upon them.
U are disbeliever in the sight of Allah because u disbelieve in his messsengers and u blaspheme Allah swt by saying that Jesus is His son.
Patrick Silverstone
Member
There is a verse in Quran saying: "Indeed, the religion in the sight of Allah is being obedient to Him."
@Smart_Guy : So, in that verse of the Qur'an, "to associate" someone with God describes a situation of belief in a second God (or even more)? Could it perhaps also cover syncretism (deciding that God is the one and the same as, say, Odin) as well?
You probably know that already, but this choice of verb will lead to a lot of confusion, at least for those who have been exposed to the usual Christian expectation of a God who associates personally with His believers - obviously not in the sense of being God themselves, but in the sense of being listened to and occasionally favored by God.
You probably know that already, but this choice of verb will lead to a lot of confusion, at least for those who have been exposed to the usual Christian expectation of a God who associates personally with His believers - obviously not in the sense of being God themselves, but in the sense of being listened to and occasionally favored by God.
Patrick Silverstone
Member
What to you mean by a second God?
I mean politheism.
As an aside, you remind me that many Muslims seem to find non-Monotheism not only unbelievable, but even difficult to imagine. Word reached me that the idea of Trinitarianism can be difficult to even explain to some.
While there is much that I question in Islam, I don't think it can be fairly be said that it is not quite Monotheistic.
As an aside, you remind me that many Muslims seem to find non-Monotheism not only unbelievable, but even difficult to imagine. Word reached me that the idea of Trinitarianism can be difficult to even explain to some.
While there is much that I question in Islam, I don't think it can be fairly be said that it is not quite Monotheistic.
Patrick Silverstone
Member
I know what it means. I meant how on earth you comprehended the verse like that!!! more than one God.
Part of the reason comes from the post I was responding to, but there was at least one other situation when a Muslim saw the need to point out that God has no partners.
In English those words "association" and "partnership" do not really hint at politheism, but I got the impression that the intent was to deny it anyway.
Am I mistaken? Please feel free to clarify the matter to me if you want to.
Association here means anything starting with other than God (as described in the Quraan), to putting someone in between us and God as an connection, ending with polytheism. Everything the word association could imply is considered here. Anything other than worshiping God, and only God, directly as if we are talking to Him directly is included. There is a saying in the Islamic heritage that goes "worship God as if you can see Him".
He's probably bringing an example to see if he understands the verse I provided. I took it that way. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt.
Actually, it is the other way around. Polytheist and partnership are included in association, as I mentioned above. At least that's what I believe. Unless I'm screwing up my English again.
firedragon
Veteran Member
In Islam, your children, your wealth and even your ego could be elevated by yourself to the status ilah (Divine, deity, god).
Anything other than the Qur'an, I assume? Surely it is not un-Islamic to use the Qur'an as a connection to God?
I take it that Sheiks, Imams and Caliphs are then understood not to be a connection to God? Perhaps not even Prophets?
Meaning that the relationship between Muslim and God should be very direct and personal, without intermediaries (other than arguably the Qur'an), correct?
Thanks, and that is quite correct, too.
As I said above, I am a bit puzzled by the use of that specific word. Particularly because from my perspective Muslims sure seem to see God as their associate, so it is apparent that there are subtleties of meaning there.
Whatever that verse means exactly, I assume we can all agree that it does not mean to say that God disapproves of people seeking to commune with God (presumably by becoming sincere and devoted Muslims). Right?
I suspect that there is some issue of translation here.
Here are some other English translations of Surah 4 (Al-Nisa, The Women), verse 48 that I found online:
- Lo! Allah forgiveth not that a partner should be ascribed unto Him. He forgiveth (all) save that to whom He will. Whoso ascribeth partners to Allah, he hath indeed invented a tremendous sin.
- GOD does not forgive idolatry, but He forgives lesser offenses for whomever He wills. Anyone who sets up idols beside GOD, has forged a horrendous offense.
- Surely Allah forgives not that a partner should be set up with Him, and forgives all besides that to whom He pleases. And whoever sets up a partner with Allah, he devises indeed a great sin.
- Indeed, Allah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills. And he who associates others with Allah has certainly fabricated a tremendous sin.
According to the second translation above, it would seem that the verse aims to warn against idolatry. Association is really not a very clear word to use for that purpose, at least when the verse is taken alone and in English.
Were the first part of the verse to be taken by itself, it would even seem to say that God disapproves of the existence of Muslims. Quite clearly, that is not what is meant.
Comparing the various translations, there seems to be an understanding that polytheism is to be considered a form of idolatry. For that matter, so is henotheism, including Trinitarianism.
All of those are Islam's understandings to have as it pleases, of course. But in all honesty, it is dangerous to assume that they will be perceived as natural or all that logical by any non-Muslims. We simply don't often take those premises, or even think of them by chance.
By association with one's own sincere devotion, perhaps? Meaning that we benefit from the good works, from the fruits of sincere devotion or perhaps from the generosity granted to others that are close to us?
Not even the Quraan. The Quraan is a record that for the word of God, and its respect is merely for that, nothing else.
As for the others mentioned, they are not used as connection to God.
But I'm confused, how are they used as a connection in your understanding? A connection is something/someone to connect to another. All those above are not so, they are means to get information on how to worship God directly, not as associated connections to reach God. Example: a priest that some Christians confess to to get forgiveness is an association of having a connection with God. At some cases the priest says things like "go, you are forgiven", while forgiveness is something for God to give. A direct connection with God would be asking him for forgiveness directly, like some other Christians do when they say "God, please forgive me".
As for the rest of your post, I'm afraid I'm not knowledgeable enough to explain it well. Making effort to do that without knowledge, puts an expected risk of doing it wrong, and that's bad. Sorry about that.
Thanks.
This is interesting. My impression that there are significant language subtleties that may be lost in translation (not always in an obvious manner) keeps getting stronger. It is small wonder that most Muslims insist that the Qur'an proper is the text in Arabic and not the translations, useful as they may be.
A connection (by my understanding, anyway) may be anything that enables understanding and/or communication between two entities or places. It can be faithful learning and devotion, even. It would not be unproper nor disrespectful to say that a Prophet is connected to God.
I see. Sure, it makes sense for a believer to prefer not to have a human priest as an intermediary for God's forgiveness. God is exalted, a priest is only human.
This is interesting. My impression that there are significant language subtleties that may be lost in translation (not always in an obvious manner) keeps getting stronger. It is small wonder that most Muslims insist that the Qur'an proper is the text in Arabic and not the translations, useful as they may be.
I don't doubt that there is a good reason why you won't call the Qur'an a connection to God, but it is not obvious, at least to me.
Connections do not necessarily imply a surrender of perception, decision or judgement. Intermediaries would, but that is of course a different word with a different meaning.
A connection (by my understanding, anyway) may be anything that enables understanding and/or communication between two entities or places. It can be faithful learning and devotion, even. It would not be unproper nor disrespectful to say that a Prophet is connected to God.
I see. Sure, it makes sense for a believer to prefer not to have a human priest as an intermediary for God's forgiveness. God is exalted, a priest is only human.
Good point about language. I believe part of what makes older Abrahamic scriptures corrupt is related to this point. But that's another story and just a belief that I don't mean any disrespect with.
Well I guess I said what I can say about it. I hope it helped.