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Would sharks and T Rex buried together lean toward the flood?

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
Something that's always bugged me about creationism is why must things always point towards Christianity? Even if you take the view that this is evidence of a great flood (which I don't) then why must this then indicate that Christianity is true?

Muslims have the same flood story. The ancient Greeks had a flood story, as did the Vikings and the Sumerians.

What makes their stories any less probable than the Christian version?
I've long asked that too. Further, note the Creationists will take flood myths from any other culture and demand we accept them as evidence of the Noah Flood, while simultaneously dismissing every other aspect of the mythologies. Talk about cherry picking.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
Hell Creek rock formation in Montana has both shark and T Rex fossils.
Seems to lean toward rather than against the Noah epic.

Data reported in the Journal of Paleontology pp1-19, 21 Jan 2019

What say you?

Sharks today live in sea water or brackish water.
They could have lived in fresh water.
Also, fossils get mixed up and this makes them hard to date at times.
There was no T-rex in the day putative days of Noah - they were dead
for about 65 million years.
 
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Erebus

Well-Known Member
FLOOD in Norse Mythology
norse-mythology.cba.pl/page,109,flood.html
FLOOD FLOOD At the time of creation in Norse mythology, the giant ymir was killed by the gods. His spurting blood created a flood.

All the giants were drowned except bergelmir and his wife, who created a new race of giants. Oceans, seas, and lakes were formed from Ymir's blood.

That's the gist of it. The version I heard also held that Ymir's brains became the clouds and his bones became mountains.

It's a bit more grisly than the Noah flood.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
That's the gist of it. The version I heard also held that Ymir's brains became the clouds and his bones became mountains.

It's a bit more grisly than the Noah flood.

Why on earth would any adult cling to childish myths? Its like a big monkey wrench in education.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
the actual explanation is the Noah epoch

The actual explanation is that the site was a river basin millions of years ago. And of course humans (i assume you consider noah to be human) did not evolve until many millions of years after that
 

sooda

Veteran Member
The actual explanation is that the site was a river basin millions of years ago. And of course humans (i assume you consider noah to be human) did not evolve until many millions of years after that

The Sumerian tradition has strongly influenced the writers of the biblical Genesis. We can see identically in it, the myth of Noah and his arch.

Let us enter the story of Sumer, to which we associate, in red, the version of the Bible.

After having created men, gods wanted to destroy humankind through floods. Human beings had indeed multiplied to such an extent that they were making too much noise, disturbing the precious gods. They quickly reacted. Namtar, the god of death and plague, was in charge of unleashing a disease upon men and women as an example. Enki, the god who created the human race, managed to save them. The gods sent other calamities, but each time, Enki helped women and men. Enlil, son of Enki, was jealous of the creatures of his father. He decided that a universal flood would drown all mankind.

continued

Noah Of Sumer - Eden Saga - english
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Hell Creek rock formation in Montana has both shark and T Rex fossils.
Seems to lean toward rather than against the Noah epic.

Data reported in the Journal of Paleontology pp1-19, 21 Jan 2019

What say you?

For info only.
I also seem to remember something from school that being mostly cartilage, sharks don't fossilise, so at best the fossil evidence will amount to teeth, possibly fin spines (on some shark species) and fossilised feces
 

We Never Know

No Slack
Sarcastically underlining how little you understand
the topic is really something you could leave to
others! :D

I see you didn't get the sarcasm. The shark on a mountain is one of the Favs of creationists trying to say it got there by the flood.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
The Sumerian tradition has strongly influenced the writers of the biblical Genesis. We can see identically in it, the myth of Noah and his arch.

Let us enter the story of Sumer, to which we associate, in red, the version of the Bible.

After having created men, gods wanted to destroy humankind through floods. Human beings had indeed multiplied to such an extent that they were making too much noise, disturbing the precious gods. They quickly reacted. Namtar, the god of death and plague, was in charge of unleashing a disease upon men and women as an example. Enki, the god who created the human race, managed to save them. The gods sent other calamities, but each time, Enki helped women and men. Enlil, son of Enki, was jealous of the creatures of his father. He decided that a universal flood would drown all mankind.

continued

Noah Of Sumer - Eden Saga - english

Thanks for that, i had read it in the distant past but had mostly forgot it.

Of course many bible stories are adapted from older mythology.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
I see you didn't get the sarcasm. The shark on a mountain is one of the Favs of creationists trying to say it got there by the flood.

I have heard creationists say the earth was flat and Noah's flood cause the mountains to push up... But, the Euphrates River Basin is still relatively flat.. 30 feet above sea level at is highest point and descending to the delta south of Basra.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
4257-Shuruppak-Instructions.jpg
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
From the study:

Recovery of the carcharhinid from the “SUE” Locality is surprising given the freshwater environment from which the fossils derive. This specimen shows clear evidence of reworking (rounded edges and a shiny patina), suggesting that it was not originally deposited at the same time as the Tyrannosaurus rex fossil. That said, there are three modern species of carcharhinid shark that either regularly invade euryhaline habitats or are restricted to freshwater ecosystems: Carcharhinus leucus (Bull shark) (Müllerand Henle, 1839) and two species of Glyphis (including the Ganges shark) (Compagno and Cook, 1995; Martin, 2005). The combination of evidence for taphonomic reworking with the known occurrence of some modern relatives invading freshwater habitats makes it difficult to infer life habits of this shark.
The second novel discovery is Galagadon nordquistae n. gen. n. sp. As mentioned above, there are currently three species of orectolobiform chondrichthyan known from the Hell Creek Formation: Protoginglymostoma estesi (Herman, 1977) (Cappetta, 2006), Restesia americana (Cook et al., 2014), and Chiloscyllium sp. (Cook et al., 2014). Galagadon n. gen. is the only Hell Creek Formation orectolobiform currently known that possesses abundant folds and plications on the labial tooth surface. With the inclusion of Galagadon n. gen., a fourth species can now be included within the freshwater ecosystems. Increasing the species-richness of aquatic ecosystems is not surprising when one considers the complexity and heterogeneity of habitats available to orectolobiformes during the Late Cretaceous. For over 30 million years prior to the deposition of the Hell Creek Formation, the WIS inundated the central portion of North America, generating marine and estuarine ecosystems for orectolobiforms to occupy. Despite all extant orectolobiforms living strictly in marine ecosystems (Martin, 2005), tolerance to varying salinity levels within this group is documented by occurrences of orectolobiform fossils discovered across salinity gradients from the marine into upland river systems (e.g., Kirkland et al., 2013), and the “SUE” locality is considered a freshwater environment based on both its distance to the paleoshoreline and the occurrence of amphibian and baenid turtle remains. Terrestrial landscape heterogeneity due to topographic and climatic microcosms during the Late Cretaceous in Laramidia is posited to have caused an increase in vertebrate biodiversity (Gates et al., 2010a, 2012), which is similar to biozonation identified by Nicholls and Russell (1990) for the seaway itself. As such, it seems reasonable that a number of small-bodied sharks could live together in such diverse habitats, or perhaps they are occurring in short, successive stratigraphic intervals. Many extant carpet-and bamboo shark species also exhibit overlapping or peripatric distributions (Corrigan and Beheregaray, 2009; Compagno et al., 2005).
...
We provide the first analytically supported phylogenetic positions for several Mesozoic orectolobiform taxa by incorporating both modern and ancient taxa through combined evidence data matrices, allowing for preliminary exploration of the evolution and biogeography of the clade. This study adds to others (e.g., Adent and Capetta, 2001; Peart et al., 2015) that combine extant and fossil species to explore the history of shark evolution.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/serv...richtian_late_cretaceous_of_north_america.pdf
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
A fully anchored and cross-matched chronology for oak and pine in central Europe extends back 12,460 years,

Reference: Friedrich M, Remmele S, Kromer B, Hofmann J, Spurk M, Kaiser KF, Orcel C, Küppers M (2004). "The 12,460-year Hohenheim oak and pine tree-ring chronology from central Europe — A unique annual record for radiocarbon calibration and paleoenvironment reconstructions". Radiocarbon. 46 (3): 1111–22. doi:10.1017/S003382220003304X. Archived from the original on 2013-06-30.

The 12,460-year Hohenheim oak and pine tree-ring chronology from Central Europe; a unique annual record for radiocarbon calibration and paleoenvironment reconstructions. | Friedrich | Radiocarbon

The 12,460-year Hohenheim oak and pine tree-ring chronology from Central Europe; a unique annual record for radiocarbon calibration and paleoenvironment reconstructions. | Friedrich | Radiocarbon

and an oak chronology goes back 7,429 years in Ireland and 6,939 years in England.

Reference: Walker, Mike (2013). "5.2.3 Dendrochronological Series". Quaternary Dating Methods. John Wiley and Sons. Archived from the original on 2016-11-28.

Quaternary Dating Methods

Comparison of radiocarbon and dendrochronological ages supports the consistency of these two independent dendrochronological sequences.

Because there's evidence of having been trees growing each and every year for consecutive years on Earth over the last 12,000 years, there was no global flood that killed all trees on Earth during any given point in time within the last 12,000 years.
 

The Reverend Bob

Fart Machine and Beastmaster
You missed the point. The T-rex wasn't an ocean creature, the shark was. They were found side by side. How did that happen?
Used to be ocean? If it used to be ocean then the pin head size shark teeth and T-rex sue wouldn't be side by side. The shark would be deeper buried in my opinion.
The T-Rex got swept out into the ocean
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
Human genetic diversity is too great for there to have ever been a human population size within the last few thousand generations consisting of much less than ca. 10,000 individuals. Pairwise Sequentially Markovian Coalescent (PSMC) analysis confirms a population bottleneck in humans that consisted of no fewer than probably ca. 10,000 individuals. (Li, Heng and Durbin, Richard ) "Inference of Human Population History from Individual Whole-Genome Sequences" Nature International Weekly Journal of Science 28 July 2001 http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v47...10231.html

If there were the most severe population bottle-necking such as some few breeding pairs that is portrayed in the aftermath of Noah's flood as portrayed in the Bible, there would not have been genetic diversity in the small group of 8 flood survivors. A lack of genetic diversity would have persisted for thousands of generations until genetic mutations could cause the genetic diversity of today's population. Based on the number of different alleles there are for the number of genes within the current population and the known rate of mutations per nucleotide sites in humans, geneticists can calculate the minimum number of people needed to create the current amount of genetic diversity. Numerous genetic studies suggest that there were several thousands of people more than 8 persons during the most severe population bottleneck which ever occurred in human history.

DNA segments (Alu repeats ) insert themselves at various chromosomal locations. There are various forms of Alu sequences and several thousand families of Alu. One well-studied family of Alu is called Ya5, which has been inserted into human chromosomes at 57 mapped locations. If we were to have descended from a single pair of ancestors such as Adam and Eve, then we all would have each of the 57 elements inserted at the same location points of our chromosomes. "However, the human population consists of groups of people who share some insertion points but not others. The multiple shared categories make it clear that although a human population bottleneck occurred, it was definitely never as small as 8. In fact, this line of evidence also indicates that there were at least several thousand people when the population was at its smallest". ( Venema, Dennis and Falk, Darrel ) " Does genetics Point to a Single Primal Couple?" 5 April 2001 http://biologos.org/blog/does-genetics-p...mal-couple
Coalescent theory analysis of single nucleotide polymorphism and linkage disequilibrium indicates the mean effective population size for hominid lineage is 100,000 individuals over the course of the last 30 million years. "The effective population size estimated from linkage disequilibrium is a minimum of ca, 10,000 followed by an expansion in the last 20,000 years." ( Tenesa, Albert, Navarro, Paul, Hayes, Ben J., Duffy, David L., Clarke, Geraldine, Goodard, Mike E. and Visscher, Peter M. ) " Recent Human Effective Population Size Estimated from Linkage Disequilibrium" Genome Research 17 April 2007 Ancestral Population Genomics: The Coalescent Hidden Markov Model Approach

Indeed, there is ample genetic evidence that a human bottleneck population so few as only eight persons had ever existed at any given point within the last few thousand human generations.
 
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columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
So,
In this thread we have Christians arguing against the science of evolution.
In another thread we have Christians arguing against the medical science of vaccines.
In yet another, we have a Christian complaining that it's a smear and false caricature of Christianity to point out the anti-science tendencies of conservative Christianity.

What's with that?
Tom
 
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