Without God there can be no Lasting Peace

[URAVIP2ME]

But in the lifetime of some of Jesus' audience, as I showed you; and Luke is clearly outvoted, by Mark and Matthew and even by himself. And the majority view is the message of John the Baptist as well as Jesus. Relax. A dud prophecy is a typical prophecy. Don't waste time trying to find excuses for it or force rationalizations on it.

To me, there is nothing to force but relaxing like a cork bobbing on top of the water we can see that man thought
political progress was being made after the Cold War in disarmament, but rather we see now that a 'power' is now needed to unite nations ( that symbolic 8th king or power of Revelation 17:11,14 )
Revelation was written well over 50+ years after Jesus was on Earth, so John knew the kingdom (Daniel 2:44) was still future. The ' thy kingdom come....' that Jesus said to pray for to come.
There was No international preaching work done in the first century as Jesus instructed to do - Matthew 24:14.
The tribulation of the year 70 for un-faithful Jerusalem was Not the great tribulation of Revelation 7:14,9.
Jesus ' Glory Time ' (Matthew 25:31-33) is future.
Thus, what gospel writer John saw in Revelation is that 8th king, like an image, has no real influence or power.
Unlike the League of Nations, the United Nations has never experienced being abandoned like the League was.
International security is now needed, so with backing the UN can be strengthened to be that symbolic 8th king.
Thus, we find No dud prophecy but how accurate Jesus' illustration of Luke 19:11-15 is.
Due to the now global international declaring about God's Kingdom as Jesus instructed to do at Acts of the Apostles 1:8 people are shown to be choosing between rulership by Christ Jesus or rulership by man.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

There is no record of this happening, however one of the guys that wrote one of the books that eventually became the bible claims he did.
Man does not have the credibility to convince everybody.
Problem is; there have been a lot of wicked men who use this written word to spread around the world, and have used this written word to justify atrocities against those who believe differently than they. But now a voice from the sky......
If that were to happen, it would be a lot more effective than what they are doing now. Perhaps he should have started with talking rocks
The problem with Jesus is that he never wrote anything down; so nobody really knows what he said. Yeah; if you listen to the guys that wrote the books that eventually became the Bible, according to those Guys, Jesus claimed to be the Son of God. But if you listen to some of the guys that wrote the Koran, or Gnostic gospels, Jesus never even made such a claim. That’s why there is no credibility when it comes to the claims of Jesus because the claims contradict each other. But a voice from the sky…….

Who says that man had or has the credibility to convince everybody.
Jesus taught his followers would be hated - Matthew 10:22; 24:9; Luke 21:17.
The record of God's voice at Jesus' baptism is recorded at Matthew 3:16-17 and Luke 3:22 and Mark 1:10-11.

Yes, Jesus did claim to be the Son of God when he answered the Jews at John 10:36.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I'm talking about the message of being saved by grace through trust and belief in Jesus. That Jesus paid the penalty for us and that it is a free gift. You know that usual evangelical Christian belief. Is that a misinterpretation?

First step is acceptance of the Messenger, then that faith also requires us to obey the law and live with works and deeds.

They cannot be separated, so yes it is false to see salvation in Jesus as the Christ is by Faith alone. If that fact is not an obvious lesson history has shown us, then we have learnt little.

Regards Tony

 

[Kfox]

Who says that man had or has the credibility to convince everybody.

Religions depend on people to spread their God's word. This would require credibility by the men who do this

Jesus taught his followers would be hated - Matthew 10:22; 24:9; Luke 21:17.

According to Matthew and Luke he did this; again nobody really knows what Jesus said

The record of God's voice at Jesus' baptism is recorded at Matthew 3:16-17 and Luke 3:22 and Mark 1:10-11.

Again; just claims various men made.

Yes, Jesus did claim to be the Son of God when he answered the Jews at John 10:36.

More claims by various men. However if God spoke for himself.....

 

[blü 2]

Revelation was written well over 50+ years after Jesus was on Earth, so John knew the kingdom (Daniel 2:44) was still future. The ' thy kingdom come....' that Jesus said to pray for to come.

It'll still be in the future long after Christianity's died out.

The tribulation of the year 70 for un-faithful Jerusalem was Not the great tribulation of Revelation 7:14,9.

By golly, the idea that the Jews deserved to suffer and die for rejecting Jesus ─ who in no way resembles a Jewish messiah ─ is one of those enduring antisemitic myths that has led only to oppression, rapine and murder. Shame on on you, shame!

Thus, we find No dud prophecy but how accurate Jesus' illustration of Luke 19:11-15 is.

No, dear blind man, the trunk is up this end of the elephant, and the prophecies ─ the unambiguous and repeated promises ─ by the Jesus of Mark, the Jesus of Matthew and the Jesus of Luke that the kingdom would be established on earth in the lifetime of some of Jesus' hearers is a total dud, an unequivocal failure.

 

[Sheldon]

there is no life without God.

Argument from assertion fallacy.

I have a life, and no deity is needed or evidenced in it, ipso facto there is life without any deity.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Argument from assertion fallacy.

I have a life, and no deity is needed or evidenced in it, ipso facto there is life without any deity.

There is this life indeed. This life is not true life as it results in death.

Jesus offered we can be born again into a life that the first death cannot overcome.

That life is a choice, one does not have to pursue an understanding of it.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

First step is acceptance of the Messenger, then that faith also requires us to obey the law and live with works and deeds.

They cannot be separated, so yes it is false to see salvation in Jesus as the Christ is by Faith alone. If that fact is not an obvious lesson history has shown us, then we have learnt little.

Regards Tony

Nothing about religion is "obvious". You know the Born-again Christian belief that Adam sinned. That caused God to curse him, the serpent and the Earth. That we can't be right with good on our own good works, because we can never be good enough. So, Jesus had to pay the penalty. And still, Christians aren't perfect in their actions. They still fall short. But, they say, it is not the good works that save them, it is the believe and faith in Jesus that saves them. The doing good is part of believing and following Jesus. That interpretation, I think, sounds like what the NT is trying to say.

If so, there is no need for new messengers like Muhammad, The Bab or Baha'u'llah. It is implied in the NT that the world will continue to go bad. The Christians believe a big part of the problem is Satan. Supposedly Jesus said there will be wars right up to the end. But then what happens? Jesus returns. Does away with Satan and all the evil people and sets up God's kingdom on Earth.

So, they too say that without God there will be no peace. But their version is way different then the Baha'i version. I don't mind the Baha'i version that much. And I learned about it before I knew the Born-Again Christian version. But I don't think they can be reconciled. They are way too different. And that's a big problem I have with the Baha'i Faith. Is that they do try and reconcile their beliefs and what will happen in the end times with Christian beliefs... and the end time beliefs of all the other major religions. Too general, too vague, too many things have to be interpreted symbolically and on and on. If you believe it and can live with it, then fine. But I don't think anything about the Baha'i Faith is "obvious".

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Nothing about religion is "obvious". You know the Born-again Christian belief that Adam sinned. That caused God to curse him, the serpent and the Earth. That we can't be right with good on our own good works, because we can never be good enough. So, Jesus had to pay the penalty. And still, Christians aren't perfect in their actions. They still fall short. But, they say, it is not the good works that save them, it is the believe and faith in Jesus that saves them. The doing good is part of believing and following Jesus. That interpretation, I think, sounds like what the NT is trying to say.

If so, there is no need for new messengers like Muhammad, The Bab or Baha'u'llah. It is implied in the NT that the world will continue to go bad. The Christians believe a big part of the problem is Satan. Supposedly Jesus said there will be wars right up to the end. But then what happens? Jesus returns. Does away with Satan and all the evil people and sets up God's kingdom on Earth.

So, they too say that without God there will be no peace. But their version is way different then the Baha'i version. I don't mind the Baha'i version that much. And I learned about it before I knew the Born-Again Christian version. But I don't think they can be reconciled. They are way too different. And that's a big problem I have with the Baha'i Faith. Is that they do try and reconcile their beliefs and what will happen in the end times with Christian beliefs... and the end time beliefs of all the other major religions. Too general, too vague, too many things have to be interpreted symbolically and on and on. If you believe it and can live with it, then fine. But I don't think anything about the Baha'i Faith is "obvious".

The Word of God does not change, but our understanding of it does.

As such, I see that is why Jesus Christ warned us not to add to scripture, not to add our own meanings. Doctrine is man's interpretation, some translations contain elements of interpretation. Imagine if the translator understood the meaning of this verse during translation.

Ezekiel 43:4 "The glory of the LORD entered the temple through the gate facing east."

"Baha'ullah entered the temple through the Bab from the east".

That is why a Baha'i will quote, to give the writing in its pure form. In that way the reader has the writing to consider, and not only the view of the person offering the verse, a verse given in the context of that person's frame of reference.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

The Word of God does not change, but our understanding of it does.

As such, I see that is why Jesus Christ warned us not to add to scripture, not to add our own meanings. Doctrine is man's interpretation, some translations contain elements of interpretation. Imagine if the translator understood the meaning of this verse during translation.

Ezekiel 43:4 "The glory of the LORD entered the temple through the gate facing east."

"Baha'ullah entered the temple through the Bab from the east".

That is why a Baha'i will quote, to give the writing in its pure form. In that way the reader has the writing to consider, and not only the view of the person offering the verse, a verse given in the context of that person's frame of reference.

Regards Tony

Again, talking about the NT, we don't know for sure what Jesus said or warned us about. Some Christians, understandably, take it as God's Word and as literal as possible. Baha'is don't take much of it at all. Any miracle can be made as being symbolic. Satan and the resurrection are made symbolic. What good is it when a religion can make the Scriptures of another religion say what they want it to say? That is the problem with the Baha'i Faith. Maybe what Baha'is say is true maybe not.

One verse in Ezekiel says that glory of the Lord came through a gate. Well, if he wanted to get into the place he'd have to come in through one of the gates. This one Gate, I assume faced due East. Was the place where The Bab declared himself exactly East of that gate? Or would the gate that faced South East or North East point more accurately in that direction?

Then one verse? What was the context? Too easy to yank on verse out and make it a prophecy. Then, why name yourself the "Glory of God" or "The Gate"? It's like the guy that calls himself Maitreya. He picked that name. Does it make him Maitreya?

But, if you want to look at what the Bible says, what else does it say about the end-times? But Baha'is need to fulfill the prophecies in all the religions. So, when the Messiah, Jesus, Maitreya, Kalki or all the others come, what will they do? I've asked these questions before. Does is say there will be two Messiahs, two Kalki's, two Jesus's? And does it say they will be rejected and be thrown in jail and die before peace gets established? And that actually, after they die, they predict a time of tribulation the likes of which the world has never known?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

One verse in Ezekiel says that glory of the Lord came through a gate. Well, if he wanted to get into the place he'd have to come in through one of the gates. This one Gate, I assume faced due East. Was the place where The Bab declared himself exactly East of that gate? Or would the gate that faced South East or North East point more accurately in that direction?

I read that differently CG.

"The Glory of God", is the English translation of Baha’u’llah. "Gate" is the English translation of the Bab.

We know that the Gate (Bab) is who (The Glory of God) Baha'u'llah entered by. That Gate prospect was towards the East of the Holy Land.

Thus to get to the Holy Land, Baha'u'llah came via the Bab from the East and further Ezekiel offeres, in other various verses.

"...My flock strayed throughout all the mountains and upon every lofty hill, and upon the entire face of the land My flock scattered—and none searches or seeks… For so said the L‑rd G‑d: Behold I am here, and I shall search for My flocks and I shall seek them out… and I will save them from all the places where they have scattered on a cloudy and dark day. I will take them out from among the nations, and I will gather them from the lands and bring them to their land, and I will shepherd them to the mountains of Israel… I will seek the lost and I will retrieve the one who went astray; I will bind up the broken and I will strengthen the sick…"

One G_d, brings the scattered peoples of all Faiths back to the promised land. Mount Carmel fulfilled that vision.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

I read that differently CG.

"The Glory of God", is the English translation of Baha’u’llah. "Gate" is the English translation of the Bab.

We know that the Gate (Bab) is who (The Glory of God) Baha'u'llah entered by. That Gate prospect was towards the East of the Holy Land.

Thus to get to the Holy Land, Baha'u'llah came via the Bab from the East and further Ezekiel offeres, in other various verses.

"...My flock strayed throughout all the mountains and upon every lofty hill, and upon the entire face of the land My flock scattered—and none searches or seeks… For so said the L‑rd G‑d: Behold I am here, and I shall search for My flocks and I shall seek them out… and I will save them from all the places where they have scattered on a cloudy and dark day. I will take them out from among the nations, and I will gather them from the lands and bring them to their land, and I will shepherd them to the mountains of Israel… I will seek the lost and I will retrieve the one who went astray; I will bind up the broken and I will strengthen the sick…"

One G_d, brings the scattered peoples of all Faiths back to the promised land. Mount Carmel fulfilled that vision.

Regards Tony

Okay, how does taking the titles, the Bab and Baha'u'llah, and setting up headquarters in Haifa fulfill the prophecies of the other religions? And still, what is the context of the verses in Ezekiel? It's way too easy to find verses you can fit into almost anything you want to. And, of course, ignore or "spiritualize" or make symbolic verses that you can't make fit. Like NT and Bible verses that make Jerusalem and Zion the place where God gathers and restores his people. Here's one about the Mt. of Olives...

Zechariah 14:4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.
5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.
6 On that day there will be neither sunlight nor cold, frosty darkness.
7 It will be a unique day—a day known only to the LORD—with no distinction between day and night. When evening comes, there will be light.
8 On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it east to the Dead Sea and half of it west to the Mediterranean Sea, in summer and in winter.
9 The LORD will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one LORD, and his name the only name.
10 The whole land, from Geba to Rimmon, south of Jerusalem, will become like the Arabah. But Jerusalem will be raised up high from the Benjamin Gate to the site of the First Gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the royal winepresses, and will remain in its place.
11 It will be inhabited; never again will it be destroyed. Jerusalem will be secure.
​

Christians use this verse to say Jesus will return to the place he ascended, the Mt. of Olives. How do Baha'is interpret these verses?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

7 It will be a unique day—a day known only to the LORD—with no distinction between day and night. When evening comes, there will be light.

How about I give an idea what I see in this verse.

Day and night, light and darkness and a whole day without distinction between day and light.

A day of God can be seen as a dispensation of a Messenger, so that could tell us about what happened to Islam, as that also ties into Revelation where the two witnesses lay dead in the street for 1260 years. So we have a faith that has no distinction between the Light, which is the Message from God, and the Darknesses, which are the teachings of men.

Then when the evening comes the darkness sets in, yet there will be light. The Bab declared his Message to Mulla Husayn after sunset the light that dispelled all darkness, also signifies the light that is the dawn of a new day.

But hey, I am but a man like you, no special skill of interpretation, but to look for One God in all Faiths.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

This was written around 1954. It is interesting, as the remedy noted in this passage has not yet been given. It is talling about the destiny of America.

"....Collateral with this ominous laxity in morals, and this progressive stress laid on man's material pursuits and well-being, is the darkening of the political horizon, as witnessed by the widening of the gulf separating the protagonists of two antagonistic schools of thought which, however divergent in their ideologies, are to be commonly condemned by the upholders of the standard of the Faith of Bahá'u'lláh for their materialistic philosophies and their neglect of those spiritual values and eternal verities on which alone a stable and flourishing civilization can be ultimately established. The multiplication, the diversity and the increasing destructive power of armaments to which both sides, in this world contest, caught in a whirlpool of fear, suspicion and hatred, are rapidly contributing; the outbreak of two successive bloody conflicts, entangling still further the American nation in the affairs of a distracted world, entailing a considerable loss in blood and treasure, swelling the national budget and progressively depreciating the currency of the state; the confusion, the vacillation, the suspicions besetting the European and Asiatic nations in their attitude to the American nation; the overwhelming accretion of strength to the arch enemy of the system championed by the American Union in consequence of the re-alignment of the powers in the Asiatic continent and particularly in the Far East--these have, moreover, contributed their share, in recent years, to the deterioration of a situation which, if not remedied, is bound to involve the American nation in a catastrophe of undreamed-of dimensions and of untold consequences to the social structure, the standard and conception of the American people and government...."

Citadel of Faith, Pages 124-127

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

This was written around 1954. It is interesting, as the remedy noted in this passage has not yet been given. It is talling about the destiny of America.

"....Collateral with this ominous laxity in morals, and this progressive stress laid on man's material pursuits and well-being, is the darkening of the political horizon, as witnessed by the widening of the gulf separating the protagonists of two antagonistic schools of thought which, however divergent in their ideologies, are to be commonly condemned by the upholders of the standard of the Faith of Bahá'u'lláh for their materialistic philosophies and their neglect of those spiritual values and eternal verities on which alone a stable and flourishing civilization can be ultimately established. The multiplication, the diversity and the increasing destructive power of armaments to which both sides, in this world contest, caught in a whirlpool of fear, suspicion and hatred, are rapidly contributing; the outbreak of two successive bloody conflicts, entangling still further the American nation in the affairs of a distracted world, entailing a considerable loss in blood and treasure, swelling the national budget and progressively depreciating the currency of the state; the confusion, the vacillation, the suspicions besetting the European and Asiatic nations in their attitude to the American nation; the overwhelming accretion of strength to the arch enemy of the system championed by the American Union in consequence of the re-alignment of the powers in the Asiatic continent and particularly in the Far East--these have, moreover, contributed their share, in recent years, to the deterioration of a situation which, if not remedied, is bound to involve the American nation in a catastrophe of undreamed-of dimensions and of untold consequences to the social structure, the standard and conception of the American people and government...."

Citadel of Faith, Pages 124-127

Regards Tony

Do Baha'is expect people to ever be perfect? This "new race of men" that Baha'is talk about... How perfect are they going to be? If not "perfect" there will still be problems and conflict. If God makes changes to our ways of thinking that makes us more spiritual, then God could have fixed the problem by fixing the human brain not to be so selfish and evil but be good and to follow God's laws. So, what is it? One of those or something else that Baha'is expect to happen?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Do Baha'is expect people to ever be perfect? This "new race of men" that Baha'is talk about... How perfect are they going to be? If not "perfect" there will still be problems and conflict. If God makes changes to our ways of thinking that makes us more spiritual, then God could have fixed the problem by fixing the human brain not to be so selfish and evil but be good and to follow God's laws. So, what is it? One of those or something else that Baha'is expect to happen?

I would say the new race of men will be focused on the oneness of mankind CG.

That oneness will change the way we live and look at life, and the first sign of that maturity will be the adoption of a world auxiliary language to be taught in all schools in all nations.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

I would say the new race of men will be focused on the oneness of mankind CG.

That oneness will change the way we live and look at life, and the first sign of that maturity will be the adoption of a world auxiliary language to be taught in all schools in all nations.

Regards Tony

Without all people the world over on the same page, I don't see how it's going to work. In the Christian version of the end times the "evil" people are done away with along with Satan. So, unless God plans on "smiting" evil people, the world is still going to have some "old race of men" living along side of the "new race of men". But that old race is going to be mean, nasty and probably have some weapons. How are they going to be dealt with?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Without all people the world over on the same page, I don't see how it's going to work. In the Christian version of the end times the "evil" people are done away with along with Satan. So, unless God plans on "smiting" evil people, the world is still going to have some "old race of men" living along side of the "new race of men". But that old race is going to be mean, nasty and probably have some weapons. How are they going to be dealt with?

CG, it is all available, we have been discussing this for a few years now, so why continue to ask me?

Baha'u'llah gave a Revelation from God that contains the promises and the warnings.

Abdul'baha lived, gave his life entirely to teaching that promise and also personally shared all the warnings at an advanced age all across Europe and America, openly and abundantly. Shoghi Effendi spent his life building the structure of that promise, that can and will eventually in a distant future overcome all evil, but most importantly also kept repeatedly warning us what we needed to do and the results of our failure to do so.

Its all there as a Google Search, no one on this forum has any excuse if they have not chosen for their own self to follow up on this.

IMHO of course. Yet in reality, the Message of Baha’u’llah has naught to do with my opinions, as it is given and unfolds only to the extent humanity chooses to embrace it.

Regards Tony

 

[Sheldon]

There is this life indeed. This life is not true life as it results in death.

You are using a no true Scotsman fallacy now, to defend your argument from assertion fallacy.

Jesus offered we can be born again into a life that the first death cannot overcome.

I don't believe you sorry, since all we have is hearsay about what Jesus may or may not have said, and even is he did say it, that would simply be an unevidenced claim.

That life is a choice, one does not have to pursue an understanding of it.

Ah, the old appeal to mystery, sorry but I don't find god of the gaps polemics very compelling.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Without all people the world over on the same page, I don't see how it's going to work. In the Christian version of the end times the "evil" people are done away with along with Satan. So, unless God plans on "smiting" evil people, the world is still going to have some "old race of men" living along side of the "new race of men". But that old race is going to be mean, nasty and probably have some weapons. How are they going to be dealt with?

Abdul'baha offered 2 Talks to the Hague about Universal Peace and how it can be obtained.

In those letters he offered the League of Nations could not obtain peace, as it did not have the structure and the required Global Support. The United Nations has the same issues, it has to have Global support.

I will post an extract from the following link, from the first letter below, but both those letters to the Hague offer what is required for Peace to be found.

https://www.bahai.org/library/autho...-baha/tablets-hague-abdul-baha.xhtml?6cba3c60

".... For example, the question of universal peace, about which Bahá’u’lláh says that the Supreme Tribunal must be established: although the League of Nations has been brought into existence, yet it is incapable of establishing universal peace. But the Supreme Tribunal which Bahá’u’lláh has described will fulfil this sacred task with the utmost might and power. And His plan is this: that the national assemblies of each country and nation—that is to say parliaments—should elect two or three persons who are the choicest of that nation, and are well informed concerning international laws and the relations between governments and aware of the essential needs of the world of humanity in this day. The number of these representatives should be in proportion to the number of inhabitants of that country. The election of these souls who are chosen by the national assembly, that is, the parliament, must be confirmed by the upper house, the congress and the cabinet and also by the president or monarch so these persons may be the elected ones of all the nation and the government. The Supreme Tribunal will be composed of these people, and all mankind will thus have a share therein, for every one of these delegates is fully representative of his nation. When the Supreme Tribunal gives a ruling on any international question, either unanimously or by majority rule, there will no longer be any pretext for the plaintiff or ground of objection for the defendant. In case any of the governments or nations, in the execution of the irrefutable decision of the Supreme Tribunal, be negligent or dilatory, the rest of the nations will rise up against it, because all the governments and nations of the world are the supporters of this Supreme Tribunal. Consider what a firm foundation this is! But by a limited and restricted League the purpose will not be realized as it ought and should. This is the truth about the situation, which has been stated..........."

Regards Tony