Without God there can be no Lasting Peace

[TransmutingSoul]

In light of the passage above, I remind all that are interested, of this passage.

"The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded." (“Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh”, p. 286)

The above passage from Abdul'baha #380 is such a counsel. Abdul'baha in a book called the Promulgation of Universal Peace has given many talks on this topic.

The Promulgation of Universal Peace | Bahá’í Reference Library

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

The Word of God does not change, but our understanding of it does.

As such, I see that is why Jesus Christ warned us not to add to scripture, not to add our own meanings. Doctrine is man's interpretation, some translations contain elements of interpretation. Imagine if the translator understood the meaning of this verse during translation.

Ezekiel 43:4 "The glory of the LORD entered the temple through the gate facing east."

"Baha'ullah entered the temple through the Bab from the east".

That is why a Baha'i will quote, to give the writing in its pure form. In that way the reader has the writing to consider, and not only the view of the person offering the verse, a verse given in the context of that person's frame of reference.

Regards Tony

I know you must feel so proud of yourself. To have such wisdom and understanding. And all you had to do is read the Baha'i writings and everything became so clear. But no, it is nothing but cherry-picking verses and making them into fulfilled prophecy. I've asked about the context of this, and other verses Baha'is use, and you don't have interpretations of the context. Here is the complete chapter. What is this vision about? Does the context describe the Bab and Baha'u'llah? If not, then how do you justify picking one verse out of the whole chapter and applying it to the Baha'i Faith?

Ezekiel 43:1 Afterward he brought me to the gate, even the gate that looketh toward the east: 2 And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east: and his voice was like a noise of many waters: and the earth shined with his glory.

3 And it was according to the appearance of the vision which I saw, even according to the vision that I saw when I came to destroy the city: and the visions were like the vision that I saw by the river Chebar; and I fell upon my face.

4 And the glory of the LORD came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east.

5 So the spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court; and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house.

6 And I heard him speaking unto me out of the house; and the man stood by me.

7 And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.

8 In their setting of their threshold by my thresholds, and their post by my posts, and the wall between me and them, they have even defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger.

9 Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever.

10 Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.

11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.

12 This is the law of the house; Upon the top of the mountain the whole limit thereof round about shall be most holy. Behold, this is the law of the house.

13 And these are the measures of the altar after the cubits: The cubit is a cubit and an hand breadth; even the bottom shall be a cubit, and the breadth a cubit, and the border thereof by the edge thereof round about shall be a span: and this shall be the higher place of the altar.

14 And from the bottom upon the ground even to the lower settle shall be two cubits, and the breadth one cubit; and from the lesser settle even to the greater settle shall be four cubits, and the breadth one cubit.

15 So the altar shall be four cubits; and from the altar and upward shall be four horns.

16 And the altar shall be twelve cubits long, twelve broad, square in the four squares thereof.

17 And the settle shall be fourteen cubits long and fourteen broad in the four squares thereof; and the border about it shall be half a cubit; and the bottom thereof shall be a cubit about; and his stairs shall look toward the east.

18 And he said unto me, Son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; These are the ordinances of the altar in the day when they shall make it, to offer burnt offerings thereon, and to sprinkle blood thereon.

19 And thou shalt give to the priests the Levites that be of the seed of Zadok, which approach unto me, to minister unto me, saith the Lord GOD, a young bullock for a sin offering.

20 And thou shalt take of the blood thereof, and put it on the four horns of it, and on the four corners of the settle, and upon the border round about: thus shalt thou cleanse and purge it.

21 Thou shalt take the bullock also of the sin offering, and he shall burn it in the appointed place of the house, without the sanctuary.

22 And on the second day thou shalt offer a kid of the goats without blemish for a sin offering; and they shall cleanse the altar, as they did cleanse it with the bullock.

23 When thou hast made an end of cleansing it, thou shalt offer a young bullock without blemish, and a ram out of the flock without blemish.

24 And thou shalt offer them before the LORD, and the priests shall cast salt upon them, and they shall offer them up for a burnt offering unto the LORD.

25 Seven days shalt thou prepare every day a goat for a sin offering: they shall also prepare a young bullock, and a ram out of the flock, without blemish.

26 Seven days shall they purge the altar and purify it; and they shall consecrate themselves.

27 And when these days are expired, it shall be, that upon the eighth day, and so forward, the priests shall make your burnt offerings upon the altar, and your peace offerings; and I will accept you, saith the Lord GOD.

​

 

[danieldemol]

I know you must feel so proud of yourself. To have such wisdom and understanding. And all you had to do is read the Baha'i writings and everything became so clear. But no, it is nothing but cherry-picking verses and making them into fulfilled prophecy. I've asked about the context of this, and other verses Baha'is use, and you don't have interpretations of the context. Here is the complete chapter. What is this vision about? Does the context describe the Bab and Baha'u'llah? If not, then how do you justify picking one verse out of the whole chapter and applying it to the Baha'i Faith?

Ezekiel 43:1 Afterward he brought me to the gate, even the gate that looketh toward the east: 2 And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east: and his voice was like a noise of many waters: and the earth shined with his glory.

3 And it was according to the appearance of the vision which I saw, even according to the vision that I saw when I came to destroy the city: and the visions were like the vision that I saw by the river Chebar; and I fell upon my face.

4 And the glory of the LORD came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east.

5 So the spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court; and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house.

6 And I heard him speaking unto me out of the house; and the man stood by me.

7 And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.

8 In their setting of their threshold by my thresholds, and their post by my posts, and the wall between me and them, they have even defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger.

9 Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever.

10 Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.

11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.

12 This is the law of the house; Upon the top of the mountain the whole limit thereof round about shall be most holy. Behold, this is the law of the house.

13 And these are the measures of the altar after the cubits: The cubit is a cubit and an hand breadth; even the bottom shall be a cubit, and the breadth a cubit, and the border thereof by the edge thereof round about shall be a span: and this shall be the higher place of the altar.

14 And from the bottom upon the ground even to the lower settle shall be two cubits, and the breadth one cubit; and from the lesser settle even to the greater settle shall be four cubits, and the breadth one cubit.

15 So the altar shall be four cubits; and from the altar and upward shall be four horns.

16 And the altar shall be twelve cubits long, twelve broad, square in the four squares thereof.

17 And the settle shall be fourteen cubits long and fourteen broad in the four squares thereof; and the border about it shall be half a cubit; and the bottom thereof shall be a cubit about; and his stairs shall look toward the east.

18 And he said unto me, Son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; These are the ordinances of the altar in the day when they shall make it, to offer burnt offerings thereon, and to sprinkle blood thereon.

19 And thou shalt give to the priests the Levites that be of the seed of Zadok, which approach unto me, to minister unto me, saith the Lord GOD, a young bullock for a sin offering.

20 And thou shalt take of the blood thereof, and put it on the four horns of it, and on the four corners of the settle, and upon the border round about: thus shalt thou cleanse and purge it.

21 Thou shalt take the bullock also of the sin offering, and he shall burn it in the appointed place of the house, without the sanctuary.

22 And on the second day thou shalt offer a kid of the goats without blemish for a sin offering; and they shall cleanse the altar, as they did cleanse it with the bullock.

23 When thou hast made an end of cleansing it, thou shalt offer a young bullock without blemish, and a ram out of the flock without blemish.

24 And thou shalt offer them before the LORD, and the priests shall cast salt upon them, and they shall offer them up for a burnt offering unto the LORD.

25 Seven days shalt thou prepare every day a goat for a sin offering: they shall also prepare a young bullock, and a ram out of the flock, without blemish.

26 Seven days shall they purge the altar and purify it; and they shall consecrate themselves.

27 And when these days are expired, it shall be, that upon the eighth day, and so forward, the priests shall make your burnt offerings upon the altar, and your peace offerings; and I will accept you, saith the Lord GOD.

​

It looks to me as though in context the Glory of God entering the gate from the east is past tense, making it not even a prophecy.

How does it look to you?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I know you must feel so proud of yourself. To have such wisdom and understanding. And all you had to do is read the Baha'i writings and everything became so clear. But no, it is nothing but cherry-picking verses and making them into fulfilled prophecy. I've asked about the context of this, and other verses Baha'is use, and you don't have interpretations of the context. Here is the complete chapter. What is this vision about? Does the context describe the Bab and Baha'u'llah? If not, then how do you justify picking one verse out of the whole chapter and applying it to the Baha'i Faith?

I will give you my thoughts CG, not sure why you started your OP as you have. O am but a human as you are. I have no special gift but of my own choice of heart

Ezekiel 43:1 Afterward he brought me to the gate, even the gate that looketh toward the east: 2 And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east: and his voice was like a noise of many waters: and the earth shined with his glory.

The Gate is the Bab, the Glory of God is Baha'u'llah, it offers Baha'u'llah would come to Israel from the East. To me the voice like many waters, is the voice of all the Messengers.

3 And it was according to the appearance of the vision which I saw, even according to the vision that I saw when I came to destroy the city: and the visions were like the vision that I saw by the river Chebar; and I fell upon my face.

Can not offer much with this, the visions by the river Chebar do have significance.

"And so it came to pass that I was in Baghdad "among captives on the banks of the Chebar' (Ezek 1:1), the Tigris Chebar

The "Glory of God" Baha'u'llah Declared openly Hid Revelation in the Ridvan Garden which is on the banks of the Tigris River

4 And the glory of the LORD came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east.

As above, Baha'u'llah came via the Bab, from the East.

5 So the spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court; and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house.

Reference to Baha'u'llah. Look up the inner court, it has many significant meanings in that time. Link to one explanation.
Two Courts, Two Lifestyles and One God - GMMI.

6 And I heard him speaking unto me out of the house; and the man stood by me.

Nothing comes to mind, but what it says.

7 And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.

Well it is prophecy still unfolding, to me it is saying Israel will recognise the Glory of God. Baha'u'llah also took all power from the kings, Queens and rulers.

8 In their setting of their threshold by my thresholds, and their post by my posts, and the wall between me and them, they have even defiled my holy name by their abominations that they have committed: wherefore I have consumed them in mine anger.

I see that is self explanatory, this is unfolding still, the anger is our neglect, which is unfolding into a 3rd world conflict

9 Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever.

To me also self explanatory, it is what this OP is about.

10 Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.

Prophecy still unfolding, the time will come when Israel will embrace the Glory of God.

11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.

Not much comes to mind, except it seems to be an admonishing and a promise that the right path will be again shown.

12 This is the law of the house; Upon the top of the mountain the whole limit thereof round about shall be most holy. Behold, this is the law of the house.

To me this is talking about what is now in Mount Carmel and the Law going out from Zion.

13 to 27

Nil comes to mind, units of measurements and days and sacrifices have deep meaning, but I am not aware of what these passage would be referring to.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It looks to me as though in context the Glory of God entering the gate from the east is past tense, making it not even a prophecy.

How does it look to you?

These are prophecy of the future.

"In Judaism and Christianity, he is also viewed as the 6th-century BCE author of the Book of Ezekiel, which reveals prophecies regarding the destruction of Jerusalem, and the restoration to the land of Israel."

Ezekiel - Wikipedia

Regards Tony

 

[danieldemol]

These are prophecy of the future.

Your mere assertion is noted.

"In Judaism and Christianity, he is also viewed as the 6th-century BCE author of the Book of Ezekiel, which reveals prophecies regarding the destruction of Jerusalem, and the restoration to the land of Israel."

Ezekiel - Wikipedia

That doesn't make the whole book prophecy, only parts of it.

Also the destruction of Israel is long before Baha'u'llah's time, and according to your Wikipedia article;

'The last recorded prophecy of Ezekiel dates to April 571 BCE,[7][8] sixteen years after the destruction of Jerusalem in 587 BCE. On the basis of dates given in the Book of Ezekiel, his span of prophecies can be calculated to have occurred over the course of about 22 years, starting in 593 BCE.[9]'

Which means part of the book would have been written with the destruction of Jerusalem as a past event anyway.

In my opinion.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Your mere assertion is noted.


That doesn't make the whole book prophecy, only parts of it.

Also the destruction of Israel is long before Baha'u'llah's time, and according to your Wikipedia article;

'The last recorded prophecy of Ezekiel dates to April 571 BCE,[7][8] sixteen years after the destruction of Jerusalem in 587 BCE. On the basis of dates given in the Book of Ezekiel, his span of prophecies can be calculated to have occurred over the course of about 22 years, starting in 593 BCE.[9]'

Which means part of the book would have been written with the destruction of Jerusalem as a past event anyway.

In my opinion.

Yes one can have that opinion.

Yet Ezekiel, seems to have mentioned the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

 

[danieldemol]

Baha'u'llah also took all power from the kings, Queens and rulers.

Not all of them, He didn't take power from Queen Victoria.

In my opinion.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Not all of them, He didn't take power from Queen Victoria.

In my opinion.

Yes Baha'u'llah praised the Queen and said her reign would last.

Another Prophecy fulfilled.

Regards Tony

 

[danieldemol]

Yes Baha'u'llah praised the Queen and said her reign would last.

Another Prophecy fulfilled.

Regards Tony

But then the original prophecy from Ezekiel to be accurate should have said, Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me *except for Queen Victoria*, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever.

In my opinion.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But then the original prophecy from Ezekiel to be accurate should have said, Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me *except for Queen Victoria*, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever.

In my opinion.

It gives some dots of the bigger picture, not all the dots.

God does as God so chooses.

Regards Tony

 

[danieldemol]

It gives some dots of the bigger picture, not all the dots.

God does as God so chooses.

Regards Tony

If God doesn't choose to accurately fulfill God's allegedly own prophecies there is not much point in revealing them in the first place - unless your God wants intelligent people to be led astray.

In my opinion.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If God doesn't choose to accurately fulfill God's allegedly own prophecies there is not much point in revealing them in the first place - unless your God wants intelligent people to be led astray.

In my opinion.

Well many see they are fulfilled.

Thus intelligence must be a relative frame of reference.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I see that Abdu’l‑Bahá’s outstanding contribution to the future reorganization of the world is worth offering at this time of a world on the edge of war, we read the following:

“True civilization will unfurl its banner in the midmost heart of the world whenever a certain number of its distinguished and high-minded sovereigns—the shining exemplars of devotion and determination—shall, for the good and happiness of all mankind, arise, with firm resolve and clear vision, to establish the Cause of Universal Peace. They must make the Cause of Peace the object of general consultation, and seek by every means in their power to establish a Union of the nations of the world. They must conclude a binding treaty and establish a covenant, the provisions of which shall be sound, inviolable and definite. They must proclaim it to all the world and obtain for it the sanction of all the human race. This supreme and noble undertaking—the real source of the peace and well-being of all the world—should be regarded as sacred by all that dwell on earth. All the forces of humanity must be mobilized to ensure the stability and permanence of this Most Great Covenant. In this all-embracing Pact the limits and frontiers of each and every nation should be clearly fixed, the principles underlying the relations of governments towards one another definitely laid down, and all international agreements and obligations ascertained. In like manner, the size of the armaments of every government should be strictly limited, for if the preparations for war and the military forces of any nation should be allowed to increase, they will arouse the suspicion of others. The fundamental principle underlying this solemn Pact should be so fixed that if any government later violate any one of its provisions, all the governments on earth should arise to reduce it to utter submission, nay the human race as a whole should resolve, with every power at its disposal, to destroy that government. Should this greatest of all remedies be applied to the sick body of the world, it will assuredly recover from its ills and will remain eternally safe and secure.”

The setting of National Boarders is a sound prediction, given the current news.

Regards Tony

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

That is what I believe.

But is it more than a just a belief, is it the chance of fulfillment that all Faiths have been waiting for?

Is that not the quandary faced in every age, is that not a lesson that history has taught us, that God has been found in many Names and in many ways?

For me to be true to that belief, that there is no Peace without God, my role first and foremost, in my daily life, is to be an example of what that lasting peace entails.

Another major part of that example is to make mention of that possibility, only to those that desire to talk upon that subject. That is where an individual's responsibly with God ceases.

So this OP is focused on this passage, that I see has come from God, it was given to us in the mid to late 1800's.

"....The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded...."

It is offered in that same Tablet, that God has never left us to ourselves, that we have always had the chance to find that peace and security in the wisdom given by God.

It has also been offered that in previous ages, persons known as Noah, Abraham, Moses, Krishna, Zoroaster, Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad (to name but a few) have all given us that chance at peace, given from God. They have all offered, each in turn, that it would be in the future when all humanity would be given the chance once again. Then the Bab came and offered that that day had come, that He was the Gate to that Day of God. Then Baha'u'llah offered that the Message He had, was that promised 'Day of God'.

"...The Pen of the Ancient King hath never ceased to remember the loved ones of God. At one time, rivers of mercy have streamed from His Pen, at another, through its movement, God’s perspicuous Book hath been revealed. He is the One to Whom none can compare, Whose utterance mortal man can never rival. He it is Who from everlasting hath been established upon the seat of ascendancy and might, He from Whose lips have gone out counsels that can satisfy the needs of the whole of mankind, and admonitions that can profit them...."

I see that is the Truth, that we cannot and will not find peace without embracing what God has said we need to do in this age.

What a quandary life offers.

Regards Tony

Do you mean a personal peace or peace in the world?

 

[CG Didymus]

It looks to me as though in context the Glory of God entering the gate from the east is past tense, making it not even a prophecy.

How does it look to you?

I do think some verses are made into prophecies. How perfect for Baha’is. The Glory of God coming through a gate. I don’t know what the context is about. But I don’t think the Baha’is do either. And I doubt they really care.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Do you mean a personal peace or peace in the world?

World peace is what the OP is about, but I see a level of personal peace would be part of that as well.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

If God doesn't choose to accurately fulfill God's allegedly own prophecies there is not much point in revealing them in the first place - unless your God wants intelligent people to be led astray.

In my opinion.

You'd think a prophecy from God would be so accurate there could be no denying it. And for believers they are accurate. One of the first "prophecies" I was told by a Baha'is was about the "how be it" one... that Jesus had many things to tell his disciples but they could not bear it yet. But when the Spirit of Truth comes, he will guide them unto all truth. I believed them. It sounded dead on accurate... until Christians told me the context. To them, the Spirit of Truth is the Holy Spirit that came on Pentecost.

I was doing fine with Christians and believing everything they said until I read Isaiah chapter 7 in context. One verse, verse 14, is the only one they use to prove that it was prophesied that Jesus would be born of a virgin. What greater proof than that? Isaiah said a virgin would give birth to the Messiah and Jesus was born of a virgin. But then I read the rest of the verses and Isaiah chapter 7 seemed to be about a child during Isaiah's time. And that boy was a "sign" for King Ahaz.

So, it's not like it's only Baha'is that do this. But what it does, for me, it makes "fulfilled prophecy" claims meaningless. The other thing that is happening... is that it makes Baha'is the only ones that know the "true" meanings of the things written in other people's Scriptures.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I do think some verses are made into prophecies. How perfect for Baha’is. The Glory of God coming through a gate. I don’t know what the context is about. But I don’t think the Baha’is do either. And I doubt they really care.

It is but a simple connection CG. Ezekiel 43 is prophecy, it does not have to be made into prophecy

The Bab (Gate) announced that He came to prepare the way for the one who God would make manifest, who was Baha'u'llah (the Glory of God).

Ezekiel 43 offers that the Gory of God came via the Gate to Israel from the East.

That is the obvious connection, but apart from that, there is a lot of symbolism in Ezekiel 43.

So we get to choose if that is a key to open the door to further understandings, or not.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

It is but a simple connection CG. Ezekiel 43 is prophecy, it does not have to be made into prophecy

The Bab (Gate) announced that He came to prepare the way for the one who God would make manifest, who was Baha'u'llah (the Glory of God).

Ezekiel 43 offers that the Gory of God came via the Gate to Israel from the East.

That is the obvious connection, but apart from that, there is a lot of symbolism in Ezekiel 43.

So we get to choose if that is a key to open the door to further understandings, or not.

Regards Tony

Well, the context is complicated. We could ask what the Jews believe Ezekiel was talking about, but would you accept what they think? Or, do you trust the Baha'i interpretations? But that is a dumb question. Of course you do. Baha'is believe that they alone know the true meaning of what the Bible is saying.

Thanks for trying to attempt to interpret the rest of the verses in Ezekiel, but, I think to be a clear prophecy, the whole of the chapter should relate directly to The Bab and Baha'u'llah. Taking the title, "The Glory of God" is just way too easy to fit into so many verses in the Bible. But Baha'u'llah is supposed to be The Messiah. We know what the prophecies about The Messiah are. Was there supposed to be four of them? Jesus, Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah? At the end times was there supposed to be two of them back to back? Was The Messiah supposed to come from Persia? Was he supposed to be imprisoned and to not establish peace?

You, I'm sure, are satisfied that Baha'u'llah has fulfilled all the prophecies in the Bible plus all those in every other religion. I'm not so sure. Does the "Gate" and the "Glory of God" have any significance in Hinduism or Buddhism? Or should he have called himself Maitreya and Kalki also? And even if he did, what would it mean? A prophecy is fulfilled because a man took a name that fits into Scripture verses?

But Baha'u'llah is not alone. Christians, I believe, did it too. They found verses that they could write into the Jesus story to make him appear to have fulfilled prophecies about being The Messiah. The worst, I think, is the virgin birth story. Ah, and that reminds me, which birth narrative of Jesus do Baha'is believe? The ones in the New Testament, with Mary and Joseph going to Bethlehem, or the one in the Quran about Mary giving birth to Jesus under a date tree? The more I learn about religious stories, the more I think they are made up by people and are not from a God.