Why is Jesus not the messiah?

[Moishe3rd]

It does. Know I have more knowledge and thus less bias christianated reflection of the judaism. Another question, a little off topic, what is a Messeanic Jew? I had a dialogue with an evaganglist christian long ago whk had strong opinions against judaism. He says if I wantes to study it, look to that.

A "messianic Jew" would probably be someone who was born Jewish but has converted to Christianity.
For some peculiar reason, they want to keep "the Jew" in their Christian beliefs.
It's a convenience for them - a way to still claim to be part of the Jewish People but believe in Christianity.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Wow. Thats rude. That is like my keeping Catholicism as a faith while practicing Buddhist teachings. I feel you can ackoweldge you still have ties to being a Jew (ex me Catholic by vow) but cant claim both faiths.

Interesting.

A "messianic Jew" would probably be someone who was born Jewish but has converted to Christianity.
For some peculiar reason, they want to keep "the Jew" in their Christian beliefs.
It's a convenience for them - a way to still claim to be part of the Jewish People but believe in Christianity.

 

[Tarheeler]

It does. Know I have more knowledge and thus less bias christianated reflection of the judaism. Another question, a little off topic, what is a Messeanic Jew? I had a dialogue with an evaganglist christian long ago whk had strong opinions against judaism. He says if I wantes to study it, look to that.

"Messianic Jew" can be pretty broad term. It can mean, as Moishe pointed out, a Jew who now practices Christianity and wishes to retain some of that background. It can also be Christians who want to go back to the "roots" of their religion.

It can also refer to one of the many, many evangelical Christian groups, such as Jews for Jesus, who try to cloak Christianity in Jewish terms in order to turn Jews away from Judaism and convert them to Christianity.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Ouch. I dont want to develop bias against christianity, but I see some negative behaviors from the people and history of the faith.

Let me ask, does Judaism have similar history as in mixed culture history as christianity whose influence came from Roman practices?

"Messianic Jew" can be pretty broad term. It can mean, as Moishe pointed out, a Jew who now practices Christianity and wishes to retain some of that background. It can also be Christians who want to go back to the "roots" of their religion.

It can also refer to one of the many, many evangelical Christian groups, such as Jews for Jesus, who try to cloak Christianity in Jewish terms in order to turn Jews away from Judaism and convert them to Christianity.

 

[Tarheeler]

Ouch. I dont want to develop bias against christianity, but I see some negative behaviors from the people and history of the faith.

Let me ask, does Judaism have similar history as in mixed culture history as christianity whose influence came from Roman practices?

I'm not sure I understand the question.

 

[Moishe3rd]

Ouch. I dont want to develop bias against christianity, but I see some negative behaviors from the people and history of the faith.

Let me ask, does Judaism have similar history as in mixed culture history as christianity whose influence came from Roman practices?

Interesting question.
On one hand, we (Torah observant; "Orthodox" Jews) claim that our Tradition goes back beyond 3,000 years ago and the Torah to the beginning of Time in an unbroken chain.
On the other hand, non believers; atheists; secularists; etc., will claim that Judaism is a religion cobbled together from diverse sources including Egyptian and Babylonian laws and ideas.

On the Gripping Hand....
For all of recorded Jewish history, we have an unbroken chain of the Written and Oral Torah. But, Jews are the most assimilating Peoples on Earth. They have been absorbed into many cultures and many peoples over the years. So, different Traditions have arisen based on where Jews have lived. There are Traditions that come from Babylon; from Greece; from Rome; from Europe; from the Muslims and Arabs; and from the rest of the world.
The Written Torah remains the same. Jewish Law however adapts to new circumstances based on the Teachings of the Torah.

The bottom line is that Avraham Avinu recognizing One G-d - the Creator of All and Everything; the history of his descendants; the Exodus from Egypt; the giving of the Torah on Mt. Sinai; the years in the Desert; and the Laws of the Torah - all have no significant precedents in This World. We are, indeed, unique.
In My Humble Opinion.

 

[dantech]

Ouch. I dont want to develop bias against christianity, but I see some negative behaviors from the people and history of the faith.

Let me ask, does Judaism have similar history as in mixed culture history as christianity whose influence came from Roman practices?

Absolutely not. Jews are perfect in every way

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Absolutely not. Jews are perfect in every way

haha. I shoud have known.

 

[RabbiO]

Interesting question.
On one hand, we (Torah observant; "Orthodox" Jews) claim that our Tradition goes back beyond 3,000 years ago and the Torah to the beginning of Time in an unbroken chain.
On the other hand, non believers; atheists; secularists; etc., will claim that Judaism is a religion cobbled together from diverse sources including Egyptian and Babylonian laws and ideas.

Wow, I get a new way to describe myself..... I am an "etc." How cool is that??

I wouldn't expect you to validate the authenticity of understandings of Judaism that do not comport with your vision of Judaism. However, I will tell you that your statement is a gross oversimplification that does no justice to those who hold views contrary to your own.

 

[Harmonious]

Wow, I get a new way to describe myself..... I am an "etc." How cool is that??

I wouldn't expect you to validate the authenticity of understandings of Judaism that do not comport with your vision of Judaism. However, I will tell you that your statement is a gross oversimplification that does no justice to those who hold views contrary to your own.

:blink:

Interesting. That would never have occurred to me. Honestly, I thought you were an Orthodox Jew.

 

[Moishe3rd]

Wow, I get a new way to describe myself..... I am an "etc." How cool is that??

I wouldn't expect you to validate the authenticity of understandings of Judaism that do not comport with your vision of Judaism. However, I will tell you that your statement is a gross oversimplification that does no justice to those who hold views contrary to your own.

Hmmm.... Based on your previous posts, I would have thought that you did not believe that Judaism was cobbled together from diverse sources.
So, I am curious. In your opinion, what makes the Torah different from any other religious source that has been cobbled together from various sources?
Your disagreement is a bit of a conundrum for me.

 

[Tumah]

:blink:

Interesting. That would never have occurred to me. Honestly, I thought you were an Orthodox Jew.

Nope. Its just me, you Moishe3rd, Rosends, Dantech and CMike. I believe.

 

[metis]

.
On the other hand, non believers; atheists; secularists; etc., will claim that Judaism is a religion cobbled together from diverse sources including Egyptian and Babylonian laws and ideas.

And why is it, iyo, that an "observant Jew", however one defines this, cannot take the middle ground that Judaism was influenced by other cultures and religions, and yet is not a duplicate of them? No religion emerges and evolves within a vacuum.

 

[RabbiO]

Interesting. That would never have occurred to me. Honestly, I thought you were an Orthodox Jew.

It's my picture that did it, right?

If you don't mind the company you keep, we're still friends.

 

[RabbiO]

Hmmm.... Based on your previous posts, I would have thought that you did not believe that Judaism was cobbled together from diverse sources.
So, I am curious. In your opinion, what makes the Torah different from any other religious source that has been cobbled together from various sources?
Your disagreement is a bit of a conundrum for me.

You divided the world into just two categories. "Torah observant 'Orthodox' Jews" on the one hand and an everyone else, on the other hand, including "non believers; atheists; secularists; etc." Since I am not an Orthodox Jew nor am I a nonbeliever, an atheist or a secularist, the only other category I fit into is "etc."

It was not I, but rather it was you, to set up the parameter that anyone other than an Orthodox Jew claims that Judaism and Torah were each "cobbled together."

First of all, "cobbled together" is a loaded term. Second, you did a disservice because there is a wide spectrum of opinion on these subjects not simply polar opposites.

 

[Moishe3rd]

You divided the world into just two categories. "Torah observant 'Orthodox' Jews" on the one hand and an everyone else, on the other hand, including "non believers; atheists; secularists; etc." Since I am not an Orthodox Jew nor am I a nonbeliever, an atheist or a secularist, the only other category I fit into is "etc."

It was not I, but rather it was you, to set up the parameter that anyone other than an Orthodox Jew claims that Judaism and Torah were each "cobbled together."

First of all, "cobbled together" is a loaded term. Second, you did a disservice because there is a wide spectrum of opinion on these subjects not simply polar opposites.

Which is not really an explanation.
"Cobbled together" was a specific description of what atheists; secularists; non believers; Etc. (which means other people similar to those categories named) think about religion and G-d in general and, in this case, the Torah.
There are many other people such as Christians, Jews, and Muslims who have varying degrees of belief about whatever the Torah is supposed to be.
I don't understand your objection.
Why not widen the parameters and reference your beliefs?

 

[dantech]

Nope. Its just me, you Moishe3rd, Rosends, Dantech and CMike. I believe.

The Old School Jews are taking over RF!

 

[metis]

The Old School Jews are taking over RF!

But how can "Old" be also "Immature" at the same time?

 

[dantech]

But how can "Old" be also "Immature" at the same time?

There's a saying in French that goes like this:
Le chameau qui ne voit pas sa bosse.

 

[Harmonious]

It's my picture that did it, right?

If you don't mind the company you keep, we're still friends.

Of course.

Also, some of your scholarly arguments made me think that you were Orthodox. However, as I know because of Levite and Jay (particularly, not exclusively) that Jews who pose good scholarly aruments that are in line with my way of thinking are not always Orthodox.

You are in good company, and I hope to remain friends.

There are many other people such as Christians, Jews, and Muslims who have varying degrees of belief about whatever the Torah is supposed to be.
I don't understand your objection.

There are Conservative and other Jews who believe in and observe the Torah. Perhaps some of the details are different, but it would be wrong to dismiss them out of hand.