Why is Jesus not the messiah?

[Harmonious]

It was the latter, but that was answered by my forgetting a lot of NT stories are not held credible by the Jews. I was thinking that they believed they were true and disagreed with it instead. (Saying Jesus existed, for example, but not saying He is the Messiah).

That is often Jews giving people the benefit of the doubt, saying, okay, the man might have lived. You say he lived. I have no reason to say he didn't live. But even if he did, he certainly wasn't the Messiah.

The former, I was curious about since I don't remember reading about capitol punishment (like death penalty) in the old testament by the people, only by God. At least that's what I remember three years ago reading it. I stopped at Joshua, little after the Torah.

There are many instances that capital punishment is called for. However, it is not something that was done often, as it required witnesses, and several other things involved, and the judges couldn't be unanimous in the judgment...

So, yes, capital punishment DID happen at the hands of the court. Just not often.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Wow. I read every single line. You answered my question perfectly and with knowledge I haven't heard yet stated. Minor questions now that I understand the reasoning behind how Jews see Jesus, what is a Sanhedrin and who is Yevneh? I'm a little fuzzy with the first paragraph given the names.

I like your number two and definitely number three. I don't like to look down on Christianity, of course. It just made me wonder about it when I was a part of it. Interesting.

See, this is only part of a major disconnect that is going on. I'll see what I can do to help.

And part of the problem is taking the Christian gospels as the truth about the life and times of Jesus. This is problematic, because this is practically the only source of the life and times of Jesus. But it's still a major problem.

Part of it is that, during the time that Jesus is supposed to have lived (and I'm not convinced that he did), it was during a time that the authority that the Sanhedrin had over life and death cases was shipped out to Yavneh, because Rabban Yochanan ben Zakkai saw that the Temple was short on time, and asked the newly minted Emperor Vespatian to spare Yavneh and its sages, among the three things Vespatian granted him.

So... That is problem one.

Problem two - the whole "court case" against Jesus was supposed to happen ON PASSOVER, during the day. It goes against Torah law for court to meet, never mind the Sanhedrin, on Yom Tov. And if the story that was in the gospels was right, the whole business happened in the Court of Hewn Stone, which is part of the Temple. There is NO WAY that the Jews who were coming from all over the world to be in the Temple wouldn't have seen this, and would have let it go without comment. If the court case happened, kangaroo court though it sounds like it was, regular Jews would not let this continue.

Problem three - taking the "guilty verdict" to the Romans to have Jesus executed. No matter how important or impressive Jesus might have been to his particular followers, he WASN'T so important that Jews who really should have known better (and if they were scholars who were judges on the Sanhedrin, they should have known better) would have gone against another very important law, and that is informing non-Jews on Jews to get the Jews in trouble.

The more I pay attention the more I think of the Christian scriptures as REALLY bad Biblical fanfiction. The authors didn't really understand the ways and means of the Jews during the time of the Temple. The authors didn't really understand many of the laws, of the customs, or even how Jews operated on one of the more intense holidays in a Jewish year.

The authors knew enough to recognize that Rabbis were there. Priests were there. Scholars were there. Members of the Sanhedrin were there. But they were so into making Jesus into a saint and a martyr and a hero that they forgot how the other Jewish characters were supposed to act.

Unless Jews today specifically study the gospels in order to engage in polemics, most Jews don't really even know who Jesus IS.

The question isn't why historically Jews didn't like Jesus. The question is, historically, once Christianity came into existence, why people quoted a non-entity to us, and expected us to believe in a guy who was irrelevant during his lifetime (if he actually lived), and to decide that he is all that they say he is because they believe he is all that.

The better question is, why do Christians insist that Jesus is a useful character in Jewish history?

Jews know what to expect when the Messiah comes. Jesus didn't fill that position in any way, if he even existed.

See, this is only part of a major disconnect that is going on. I'll see what I can do to help.

And part of the problem is taking the Christian gospels as the truth about the life and times of Jesus. This is problematic, because this is practically the only source of the life and times of Jesus. But it's still a major problem.

Part of it is that, during the time that Jesus is supposed to have lived (and I'm not convinced that he did), it was during a time that the authority that the Sanhedrin had over life and death cases was shipped out to Yavneh, because Rabban Yochanan ben Zakkai saw that the Temple was short on time, and asked the newly minted Emperor Vespatian to spare Yavneh and its sages, among the three things Vespatian granted him.

So... That is problem one.

Problem two - the whole "court case" against Jesus was supposed to happen ON PASSOVER, during the day. It goes against Torah law for court to meet, never mind the Sanhedrin, on Yom Tov. And if the story that was in the gospels was right, the whole business happened in the Court of Hewn Stone, which is part of the Temple. There is NO WAY that the Jews who were coming from all over the world to be in the Temple wouldn't have seen this, and would have let it go without comment. If the court case happened, kangaroo court though it sounds like it was, regular Jews would not let this continue.

Problem three - taking the "guilty verdict" to the Romans to have Jesus executed. No matter how important or impressive Jesus might have been to his particular followers, he WASN'T so important that Jews who really should have known better (and if they were scholars who were judges on the Sanhedrin, they should have known better) would have gone against another very important law, and that is informing non-Jews on Jews to get the Jews in trouble.

The more I pay attention the more I think of the Christian scriptures as REALLY bad Biblical fanfiction. The authors didn't really understand the ways and means of the Jews during the time of the Temple. The authors didn't really understand many of the laws, of the customs, or even how Jews operated on one of the more intense holidays in a Jewish year.

The authors knew enough to recognize that Rabbis were there. Priests were there. Scholars were there. Members of the Sanhedrin were there. But they were so into making Jesus into a saint and a martyr and a hero that they forgot how the other Jewish characters were supposed to act.

Unless Jews today specifically study the gospels in order to engage in polemics, most Jews don't really even know who Jesus IS.

The question isn't why historically Jews didn't like Jesus. The question is, historically, once Christianity came into existence, why people quoted a non-entity to us, and expected us to believe in a guy who was irrelevant during his lifetime (if he actually lived), and to decide that he is all that they say he is because they believe he is all that.

The better question is, why do Christians insist that Jesus is a useful character in Jewish history?

Jews know what to expect when the Messiah comes. Jesus didn't fill that position in any way, if he even existed.

 

[Harmonious]

Wow. I read every single line. You answered my question perfectly and with knowledge I haven't heard yet stated.

I'm very glad that I was able to help.

Minor questions now that I understand the reasoning behind how Jews see Jesus, what is a Sanhedrin and who is ?

The Sanhedrin was the court, usually made up of 71 judges, who met and taught law, discussed case law, and had the legal ability to administer the capital punishment, should it be necessary, when they sat in the Court of Hewn Stone, in the Temple.

Once they moved to Yavneh, or, really, anywhere that wasn't in the Temple, the ability to execute capital punishment was taken away from them.

And even decades before the move, the Romans weren't keen on Jews having the power of life and death over anyone, so had forbidden the Jews from carrying out the death penalty. It was rather a moot point.

In the gospels, Jesus' case was supposed to have been taken the day after "the Last Supper," which three of the four gospels have agreed were a Passover Seder. The case was supposed to have been tried by the Sanhedrin. If the authors were up on their facts, they would have known that the Sanhedrin refused to take capital cases at this time.

I'm a little fuzzy with the first paragraph given the names.

These names are known from the Talmud in Gittin. You can find a story that has the names I mentioned here.

I like your number two and definitely number three. I don't like to look down on Christianity, of course. It just made me wonder about it when I was a part of it. Interesting.

I'm glad I could help.

 

[Harmonious]

Carlita, I have to apologize. Once I read and reread my posts, I realized that if Jesus lived, it would have been during the decades before Rabban Yochanan ben Zakkai. The Sanhedrin was no longer taking capital cases, as I said, but the Roman siege of Jerusalem happened in year 70 CE. As such, Yavneh wouldn't have been in play, yet.

However, as I said before, the Sanhedrin wasn't taking capital cases, as per Roman decree, and even if they were, they would NOT have taken the case on Passover, and all the rest.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Wow. Really? How could the authors have missed that one? I know Paul is a Roman and Jew; but, I'm sure they should have known the laws.

May I ask, have you been raised Jewish? Christianity, that I know of, doesn't have teachings from heritage. Catholic (both) have lineage by their respective traditions. I asked because unlike Christianity, many other religions have oral teachings and other books beside the scriptural text and family and community are linked with educating children about their faith in relation to their upbringing and world-view. If that made sense at all?

In the gospels, Jesus' case was supposed to have been taken the day after "the Last Supper," which three of the four gospels have agreed were a Passover Seder. The case was supposed to have been tried by the Sanhedrin. If the authors were up on their facts, they would have known that the Sanhedrin refused to take capital cases at this time.

 

[Harmonious]

Wow. Really? How could the authors have missed that one? I know Paul is a Roman and Jew; but, I'm sure they should have known the laws.

That is a good question.

May I ask, have you been raised Jewish?

Yes I was and continue to be.

I also remember being challenged by an adult who was a Born Again Christian when I was in junior high school, and I remember being upset because what she said sounded wrong, but I didn't know enough to explain why.

I spent a lot of time learning about Jewish/Christian polemics, and spent a lot of time speaking to Christians. On a different message board, someone asked me to read the Gospels. So I did. And I gave a running commentary on what I read.

Christianity, that I know of, doesn't have teachings from heritage. Catholic (both) have lineage by their respective traditions. I asked because unlike Christianity, many other religions have oral teachings and other books beside the scriptural text and family and community are linked with educating children about their faith in relation to their upbringing and world-view. If that made sense at all?

It makes sense.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yes I was and continue to be.

I always like hearing people say this. Beautiful.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I know Paul is a Roman and Jew; but, I'm sure they should have known the laws.

Perhaps.

 

[dantech]

I also remember being challenged by an adult who was a Born Again Christian when I was in junior high school, and I remember being upset because what she said sounded wrong, but I didn't know enough to explain why.

I guess I wasn't the only one. They really seem to like pursuing the young, the ignorant, and the vulnerable.

 

[rosends]

I guess I wasn't the only one. They really seem to like pursuing the young, the ignorant, and the vulnerable.

My brother has a story like this -- he was accosted in Grand Central and fortunately, someone swooped in and took up his defense.

 

[Tumah]

My brother has a story like this -- he was accosted in Grand Central and fortunately, someone swooped in and took up his defense.

J for J just built this place in Brooklyn right around the corner from my parents' house, with the intention of targeting Orthodox and (I imagine the easier) Russian Jews.

 

[RabbiO]

I guess I wasn't the only one. They really seem to like pursuing the young, the ignorant, and the vulnerable.

Many years ago, I was doing research on an entity in Los Angeles that hyped itself as both the First Hebrew Christian Church and the First Hebrew Christian Synagogue. I went once to observe the service and before the morning was over I was invited, politely, to leave. After services were over, it being obvious that I was a stranger, a sixtyish woman came over to welcome me. We chatted for awhile and it came out that I was not a believer in Jesus. That was not a problem, but it created an opening for this woman to ask me if I could explain something to her. She was puzzled, and hurt, that her children - who were practicing Jews - would not allow her to be alone with her grandchildren so that she could teach them about their messiah, Jesus.

As gently as I could I answered that her children were Jews, actively practicing their religion, who were apparently committed to raising Jewish children and it seemed obvious that they did not want her influencing the kids to follow a path the parents considered to be false.

Her response was that she could see I was someone who was hostile. She went off to see a group of people who then came back to me and asked me to leave.

 

[rosends]

Many years ago, I was doing research on an entity in Los Angeles that hyped itself as both the First Hebrew Christian Church and the First Hebrew Christian Synagogue. I went once to observe the service and before the morning was over I was invited, politely, to leave. After services were over, it being obvious that I was a stranger, a sixtyish woman came over to welcome me. We chatted for awhile and it came out that I was not a believer in Jesus. That was not a problem, but it created an opening for this woman to ask me if I could explain something to her. She was puzzled, and hurt, that her children - who were practicing Jews - would not allow her to be alone with her grandchildren so that she could teach them about their messiah, Jesus.

As gently as I could I answered that her children were Jews, actively practicing their religion, who were apparently committed to raising Jewish children and it seemed obvious that they did not want her influencing the kids to follow a path the parents considered to be false.

Her response was that she could see I was someone who was hostile. She went off to see a group of people who then came back to me and asked me to leave.

I was asked by a student today to discuss "propaganda." I explained "it is propaganda if the other guy says it."

This seems to fit the bill. No matter how nicely or gently you explain the situation, if it is not in line with what they say, you are suddenly the bad guy...

 

[metis]

The largest MJ branch was created by the Baptists ("Jews for Jesus"), and we well know how tolerant they have tended to be overall.

 

[Harmonious]

I guess I wasn't the only one. They really seem to like pursuing the young, the ignorant, and the vulnerable.

I remember the last words we ever exchanged. (After that, she was no longer our elementary school crossing guard, and she moved away.)

She told me, "Why don't you ask Jesus if he's real?"
I spat back, "Why don't you ask Jupiter if he's real?"

It made sense to me.

 

[Akivah]

Her response was that she could see I was someone who was hostile. She went off to see a group of people who then came back to me and asked me to leave.

That's typical. They love you until you disagree, then they hate you.

 

[Akivah]

The NT is all I'm really familiar with; so, I will bounce back on it when talking about other Abrahamic faiths.

{snip}

I have read the Torah. Is the Bible Christians use different than the Torah used by Jews or is it the same just with so many translations in the latter?

You are suffering from the same problem that many Christians have. You use your knowledge of the Christian bible to judge the beliefs of Judaism.

Within Judaism, we are extremely precise when making copies of our bible. If just a single letter is wrong, the entire copied bible is declared garbage and is disposed of. Now keeping that in mind, look at the comparison of the two bibles. In the Christian bible, many different words are added, other many words are deleted, the order of the books are switched around, and new material is added. In no way can our two bibles be declared the same. The Christian bible is completely non-authoritative to Judaism.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Thank you. That explains a lot of the confusion there.....

You are suffering from the same problem that many Christians have. You use your knowledge of the Christian bible to judge the beliefs of Judaism.

Within Judaism, we are extremely precise when making copies of our bible. If just a single letter is wrong, the entire bible is declared garbage and is disposed of. Now keeping that in mind, look at the comparison of the two bibles. In the Christian bible, many different words are added, other many words are deleted, the order of the books are switched around, and new material is added. In no way can our two bibles be declared the same. The Christian bible is completely non-authoritative to Judaism.

 

[Moishe3rd]

Thank you. That explains a lot of the confusion there.....

So, my two cents, going back to the original question as to "why" Jesus wasn't the "messiah" for the Jews.

It really is a matter of semantics and the fact that, over 2,000 years, the word "messiah" has come to mean a specific person, Jesus, and a specific viewpoint of Jesus, Christianity.

Jews never had the same viewpoint of the original Hebrew word "moshiach" (from whence comes "messiah") that the Roman Christians developed.

The "moshiach" is/ will be many different things, some of them more "mystical" but, he is never going to be divine. "Moshiach" literally means the "anointed one" which literally means that he has to be a descendant of the Tribe of Yehuda (Judah; the Tribe of the Kings of Israel) and a descendant of King David. (And, incidentally, as the lineage passes down through the male line, he cannot be born of a "virgin mother" as that would annul the male lineage.) There are also different levels or gradations or "incarnations" of "moshiach" such as "moshiach ben David;" "moshiach ben Yosef;" and even Eliyahu (Elijah the Prophet).

In the Christian world, "miracles" such as the raising of the dead; healing; water to wine; and the resurrection, "proved" that Jesus was the "messiah;" "divine."
In the Jewish world, these phenomena would "prove" nothing other than the person involved was on a "godly" level of spirituality. There are numerous examples in Tanach (the "old testament") and the Talmud, of all of these, and more, "miraculous" phenomena occurring. That didn't make the "miracle workers" into "moshiach."

The Jewish "moshiach" is an entirely different frame of reference which, although a pillar of Faith for Jews, is not a central focus of being Jewish.

Hope this helps.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It does. Know I have more knowledge and thus less bias christianated reflection of the judaism. Another question, a little off topic, what is a Messeanic Jew? I had a dialogue with an evaganglist christian long ago whk had strong opinions against judaism. He says if I wantes to study it, look to that.

So, my two cents, going back to the original question as to "why" Jesus wasn't the "messiah" for the Jews.

It really is a matter of semantics and the fact that, over 2,000 years, the word "messiah" has come to mean a specific person, Jesus, and a specific viewpoint of Jesus, Christianity.

Jews never had the same viewpoint of the original Hebrew word "moshiach" (from whence comes "messiah") that the Roman Christians developed.

The "moshiach" is/ will be many different things, some of them more "mystical" but, he is never going to be divine. "Moshiach" literally means the "anointed one" which literally means that he has to be a descendant of the Tribe of Yehuda (Judah; the Tribe of the Kings of Israel) and a descendant of King David. (And, incidentally, as the lineage passes down through the male line, he cannot be born of a "virgin mother" as that would annul the male lineage.) There are also different levels or gradations or "incarnations" of "moshiach" such as "moshiach ben David;" "moshiach ben Yosef;" and even Eliyahu (Elijah the Prophet).

In the Christian world, "miracles" such as the raising of the dead; healing; water to wine; and the resurrection, "proved" that Jesus was the "messiah;" "divine."
In the Jewish world, these phenomena would "prove" nothing other than the person involved was on a "godly" level of spirituality. There are numerous examples in Tanach (the "old testament") and the Talmud, of all of these, and more, "miraculous" phenomena occurring. That didn't make the "miracle workers" into "moshiach."

The Jewish "moshiach" is an entirely different frame of reference which, although a pillar of Faith for Jews, is not a central focus of being Jewish.

Hope this helps.