Why is Jesus not the messiah?

[rosends]

What are the prophecies He did not fulfill?

Here's a starting point

-He must build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28)
-He must gather all the Jews back to the Land of Israel (Is. 43:5-6)
- He must usher in an era of world peace and bring an end to hatred, oppression, suffering and disease (Is. 2:4)
- He must spread the knowledge of the G-d of Israel, uniting the entire world as one (Zechariah 14:9)

 

[Akivah]

But at best, amongst the majority of Jews living in Israel, he was a rabble rouser.

From my understanding, the stories about jesus portray him as a criminal. He stole grain from farmers, killed their farm animals, and destroyed the money changers places of work.

 

[atpollard]

An important concept to understand is that Judaism and Christianity have completely different definitions of many words, including messiah, salvation, sin, and atonement. So you have to put aside any Christian claims to better understand the Judaism POV because we mean different things (from Christians) when using the same words.

Could you point to a source of those definitions according to Judiasm?
(I had never heard that.)

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I have a question. In the Bible, the Jews wanted Jesus to be crucified. Today, is that one of the many reasons He is not the messiah due to how your ancestors saw him when he was alive? Did their harsh opinion of him have an influence in how the Jewish see Him today?

Thanks

 

[Tumah]

Could you point to a source of those definitions according to Judiasm?
(I had never heard that.)

How about this, being as we don't use the NT to determine our understanding of the words, how would you expect us to share similar definitions?

I have a question. In the Bible, the Jews wanted Jesus to be crucified. Today, is that one of the many reasons He is not the messiah due to how your ancestors saw him when he was alive? Did their harsh opinion of him have an influence in how the Jewish see Him today?

Thanks

I don't think so. It all comes down to the same thing: The only way to be the Messiah is to fulfill the prophecies. All the claims in the world aren't going to help without fulfilling the prophecies that G-d set down for the Messiah to fulfill. That is true about all the false-Messiahs that have popped up in Judaism. Not all of them were killed. But all of them were sidelined for not fulfilling the prophecies.

 

[rosends]

I have a question. In the Bible, the Jews wanted Jesus to be crucified. Today, is that one of the many reasons He is not the messiah due to how your ancestors saw him when he was alive? Did their harsh opinion of him have an influence in how the Jewish see Him today?

Thanks

The problem is that we are stuck using the gospel accounts to determine what "the Jews" wanted, or felt or saw. Mostly, my attitude of Jesus is that, because his identity hinges on accepting the veracity and authority of texts I reject, he is irrelevant to my life. The fact that the world didn't change in the required ways cements that any claim made falls flat regardless of what the gospels recount as the reaction of his contemporaries.

 

[Tarheeler]

I have a question. In the Bible, the Jews wanted Jesus to be crucified. Today, is that one of the many reasons He is not the messiah due to how your ancestors saw him when he was alive? Did their harsh opinion of him have an influence in how the Jewish see Him today?

Thanks

Why would the stories told in your Bible have any relevance to our religion?

He is not held as the messiah because he didn't fulfill the requirements of the messiah. How he was seen by the Jews of his day is irrirrelevant to his status, and he has no role in our religion today.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I thought the connection is because he was not seen as the Messiah by the Jews, that is one of many reasons why they wanted to crucify Him in the NT. (Which many Christians, who are not Jewish, do not see that point of view of why the Jews did not like what Jesus taught because it went against their own views (what you all are describing in these posts) with which I read many still hold today.

I wouldn't dismiss the NT. I am just asking if there is a connection between why the Jews crucified Jesus on the grounds that He was not the Messiah then and how Jews see Him today with the same view (as you just mentioned) about unfulfilled prophecies which, from a Jewish perspective, Christians seem to ignore.

NT perspective from a Jewish perspective not Christian.

Why would the stories told in your Bible have any relevance to our religion?

He is not held as the messiah because he didn't fulfill the requirements of the messiah. How he was seen by the Jews of his day is irrirrelevant to his status, and he has no role in our religion today.

 

[rosends]

I thought the connection is because he was not seen as the Messiah by the Jews, that is one of many reasons why they wanted to crucify Him in the NT. (Which many Christians, who are not Jewish, do not see tha tpoint of view of why the Jews did not like what Jesus taught because it went against their own views with which I read many still hold today.

I wouldn't dismiss the NT. I am just asking if there is a connection between why the Jews crucified Jesus on the grounds that He was not the Messiah and how Jews see Him today, with the same unfulfilled prophecies that was in the NT back when.

NT perspective from a Jewish perspective not Christian.

Except that under Jewish law, claiming to be a messiah is not punishable by crucifixion. So the entire version of events is suspect.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Except that under Jewish law, claiming to be a messiah is not punishable by crucifixion. So the entire version of events is suspect.

OOh. New Knowledge. I assume that's a Roman thing to do. If Jesus was in the OT times and still was not the Messiah, what would be the punishment then (and is it still held today)?

 

[Tarheeler]

I thought the connection is because he was not seen as the Messiah by the Jews, that is one of many reasons why they wanted to crucify Him in the NT. (Which many Christians, who are not Jewish, do not see that point of view of why the Jews did not like what Jesus taught because it went against their own views (what you all are describing in these posts) with which I read many still hold today.

I wouldn't dismiss the NT. I am just asking if there is a connection between why the Jews crucified Jesus on the grounds that He was not the Messiah then and how Jews see Him today with the same view (as you just mentioned) about unfulfilled prophecies which, from a Jewish perspective, Christians seem to ignore.

NT perspective from a Jewish perspective not Christian.

According to your Bible, the Romans killed Jesus.
Claiming to be the messiah isn't a capital offense, and crucifixion wasn't a form of capital punishment practiced by the Jews.

 

[Flankerl]

I am not "the messiah", why would I be punished because of that?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I see. (Please don't refer to the Bible as my Bible. I don't follow scripture. I was well acquainted with it when I was a practicing Christian)

Hmm. That would mean from a Jewish perspective, that when the NT Jews told Harold, I think, a Roman Pharacee to crucify Christ that was an error because at that time, crucifixtion wasn't a punishment Jews carried out?

If that is true, that would make sense, because there are no examples of crucifixion in the OT only the NT.

According to your Bible, the Romans killed Jesus.
Claiming to be the messiah isn't a capital offense, and crucifixion wasn't a form of capital punishment practiced by the Jews.

 

[Tarheeler]

I see. (Please don't refer to the Bible as my Bible. I don't follow scripture. I was well acquainted with it when I was a practicing Christian)

Hmm. That would mean from a Jewish perspective, that when the NT Jews told Harold, I think, a Roman Pharacee to crucify Christ that was an error because at that time, crucifixtion wasn't a punishment Jews carried out?

If that is true, that would make sense, because there are no examples of crucifixion in the OT only the NT.

It isn't our Bible, and your title identifies you as being "Catholic by vows". If you don't wish to claim it, then it certainly isn't any skin off my nose.

We don't typically worry a whole lot about what the Christian Bible states. Many Jews doubt the character of Jesus ever even existed, and we certainly don't hold the stories in it as authoritative.
Our "perspective" would be what has already been stated: That claiming to be the messiah wasn't a capital offense, and crucifixion wasn't a form of capital punishment practiced by the Jews.

 

[rosends]

OOh. New Knowledge. I assume that's a Roman thing to do. If Jesus was in the OT times and still was not the Messiah, what would be the punishment then (and is it still held today)?

We don't use biblical punishments today for a number of reasons. To understand a punishment back then you have to understand an elaborate legal system, and what a "messiah" is. A king or a high priest is a messiah but no one simply claims to be one of those.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

That would mean from a Jewish perspective, that when the NT Jews told Harold, I think, a Roman Pharacee to crucify Christ that was an error because at that time, crucifixtion wasn't a punishment Jews carried out?

^ I honestly don't know where to begin.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I see. I am Catholic by vows/sacraments. I am Buddhist by faith. Claiming the Bible is mine (unless you're saying Christians in general) doesn't ring right in my ears unless I held it as an authority I lived my life by. Since I do not, I am by faith just as any other non christian who does not claim the Bible their sole authority to life.

The NT is all I'm really familiar with; so, I will bounce back on it when talking about other Abrahamic faiths. I share more with Muslim and Jewish than I do Christians in regards to Jesus surprisingly. All is a learning experience.

If Jesus lived in the old testament days and said He fulfilled the prophecies that were not fulfilled and he was very harsh with Jews who disagreed with Him (like the NT), what would be his punishment (as you said not capitol) in that time period?

I have read the Torah. Is the Bible Christians use different than the Torah used by Jews or is it the same just with so many translations in the latter?

It isn't our Bible, and your title identifies you as being "Catholic by vows". If you don't wish to claim it, then it certainly isn't any skin off my nose.

We don't typically worry a whole lot about what the Christian Bible states. Many Jews doubt the character of Jesus ever even existed, and we certainly don't hold the stories in it as authoritative.
Our "perspective" would be what has already been stated: That claiming to be the messiah wasn't a capital offense, and crucifixion wasn't a form of capital punishment practiced by the Jews.

 

[rosends]

I see. I am Catholic by vows/sacraments. I am Buddhist by faith. Claiming the Bible is mine (unless you're saying Christians in general) doesn't ring right in my ears unless I held it as an authority I lived my life by. Since I do not, I am by faith just as any other non christian who does not claim the Bible their sole authority to life.

The NT is all I'm really familiar with; so, I will bounce back on it when talking about other Abrahamic faiths. I share more with Muslim and Jewish than I do Christians in regards to Jesus surprisingly. All is a learning experience.

If Jesus lived in the old testament days and said He fulfilled the prophecies that were not fulfilled and he was very harsh with Jews who disagreed with Him (like the NT), what would be his punishment (as you said not capitol) in that time period?

I have read the Torah. Is the Bible Christians use different than the Torah used by Jews or is it the same just with so many translations in the latter?

If someone claims to be a prophet and his prophecies do not come true, or he tells people to pursue behavior which contradicts extant law, he is liable to a death penalty. This has nothing to do with a status as a "messiah" figure.

Is your question about what type of death penalty would be called for, or is it about the position of Jesus vis-a-vis "messiah-ship"?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Is your question about what type of death penalty would be called for, or is it about the position of Jesus vis-a-vis "messiah-ship"?

It was the latter, but that was answered by my forgetting a lot of NT stories are not held credible by the Jews. I was thinking that they believed they were true and disagreed with it instead. (Saying Jesus existed, for example, but not saying He is the Messiah).

The former, I was curious about since I don't remember reading about capitol punishment (like death penalty) in the old testament by the people, only by God. At least that's what I remember three years ago reading it. I stopped at Joshua, little after the Torah.

 

[Harmonious]

I have a question. In the Bible, the Jews wanted Jesus to be crucified. Today, is that one of the many reasons He is not the messiah due to how your ancestors saw him when he was alive? Did their harsh opinion of him have an influence in how the Jewish see Him today?
Thanks

See, this is only part of a major disconnect that is going on. I'll see what I can do to help.

And part of the problem is taking the Christian gospels as the truth about the life and times of Jesus. This is problematic, because this is practically the only source of the life and times of Jesus. But it's still a major problem.

Part of it is that, during the time that Jesus is supposed to have lived (and I'm not convinced that he did), it was during a time that the authority that the Sanhedrin had over life and death cases was shipped out to Yavneh, because Rabban Yochanan ben Zakkai saw that the Temple was short on time, and asked the newly minted Emperor Vespatian to spare Yavneh and its sages, among the three things Vespatian granted him.

So... That is problem one.

Problem two - the whole "court case" against Jesus was supposed to happen ON PASSOVER, during the day. It goes against Torah law for court to meet, never mind the Sanhedrin, on Yom Tov. And if the story that was in the gospels was right, the whole business happened in the Court of Hewn Stone, which is part of the Temple. There is NO WAY that the Jews who were coming from all over the world to be in the Temple wouldn't have seen this, and would have let it go without comment. If the court case happened, kangaroo court though it sounds like it was, regular Jews would not let this continue.

Problem three - taking the "guilty verdict" to the Romans to have Jesus executed. No matter how important or impressive Jesus might have been to his particular followers, he WASN'T so important that Jews who really should have known better (and if they were scholars who were judges on the Sanhedrin, they should have known better) would have gone against another very important law, and that is informing non-Jews on Jews to get the Jews in trouble.

The more I pay attention the more I think of the Christian scriptures as REALLY bad Biblical fanfiction. The authors didn't really understand the ways and means of the Jews during the time of the Temple. The authors didn't really understand many of the laws, of the customs, or even how Jews operated on one of the more intense holidays in a Jewish year.

The authors knew enough to recognize that Rabbis were there. Priests were there. Scholars were there. Members of the Sanhedrin were there. But they were so into making Jesus into a saint and a martyr and a hero that they forgot how the other Jewish characters were supposed to act.

Unless Jews today specifically study the gospels in order to engage in polemics, most Jews don't really even know who Jesus IS.

The question isn't why historically Jews didn't like Jesus. The question is, historically, once Christianity came into existence, why people quoted a non-entity to us, and expected us to believe in a guy who was irrelevant during his lifetime (if he actually lived), and to decide that he is all that they say he is because they believe he is all that.

The better question is, why do Christians insist that Jesus is a useful character in Jewish history?

Jews know what to expect when the Messiah comes. Jesus didn't fill that position in any way, if he even existed.