Why is a man allowed to have more than one wife in Islam?

[Aquitaine]

well you see islam has the solution, so why does everyone complain about polygamy?

Because UV is talking about Polyamory, and Islam doesn't even permit Polygamy, technically.

It only permits Polygyny, but not Polyandry......that's the issue here.

 

[Aquitaine]

Okay, Abibi, the reason for my delayed repsonse is because it's gonna take a lot of time (and writting) since we've opened up multiple new debates about topics other than Polygyny, like Aisha n' all that.

Anyways, what I'm gonna do is try and break down our argument into sections that are about different things, otherwise we'll end up creating new issues to debate about those instead during the process lol. So, I'm gonna start from top to bottom.....

This post is going to be about Aisha and her "child" status etc.

Sorry for being a bit short earlier, it was quite late and my head was pounding :sad4: That said I would appreciate it if you would at least stop referring to the Prophet as "Mo". I find it disrespectful and not necessary for a thoughtful and open minded debate. Now to address your points.

No worries. As for the Mo' thing, honestly, I cannot be bothered typing out "Mohammad: Peace Be Upon Him" everytime I mention him. I don't see why you find it disrespectfull, since it's no different from calling a Christopher "Chris" or Joanna "Jo". Trust me, it doesn't make our debate any less meaningfull.

Aisha

She was not a child.

child (ch

ld)n. pl. chil·dren (ch

l

dr

n) 1. a. A person between birth and puberty.
b. A person who has not attained maturity or the age of legal majority.
(Child - definition of Child by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.)

In accordance to my Cultural values, and that of many others, a 9 year old is a child. However, if you like, I'll just refer to her as a 9 year old.

So, Mo' married a 9 year old, better? How old was he again at the time, 53?

Aisha had already reached puberty and thus was and is considered an adult in Islamic Culture. Children, once reaching puberty, are expected to be treated with the same religious responsibilities as an adult would.

Except Males.
Also, I have tried to find evidence that Arab girls "mature" faster. By all means, if you can find scientific evidence that supports the claim, then I'm willing to accept that Arab girls may in fact start Menstruating faster. However, Menstruating doesn't mean they're any less of a "child" mentally.

So, if you may, provide evidence that Arab Girls "mature" faster, and that Aisha reached Pubity at 9?

Although I think I did read a Hadith somewhere where Aisha did admit to being on her Menses, however just to double-check I'd like you to provide one for me - which shows she reached Menstruation when she was 9 years old.

My personal conclusion (from my observations of Islamic texts) is that Aisha, (even if Menstruating at 9) was still mentally a child - i.e. just like a European 9 year old.

I'll continue to back up my conclusion with evidence once you've provided me yours of:

1) That Arabic girls menstruate earlier than Europeans, and to what margin.
2) That Arabic girl mature (mentally) than Europeans, and to what margin.
3) That Aisha reached Puberty at 9, although it isn't that important since, as I said, Menstruation doesn't make children mentally "adult".

Oh also, when you said Muslim girls are treated as Adults once they reach Puberty (and therefore are capable of fulfilling their "roles"), is it custom for Muslim adult Women to play with toys?

 

[Bismillah]

Actually, no. I'm not saying it's okay for a child to have 3 Fathers, I'm just saying that the way you put it across "What if the Men all want 7 children each" sounded like the Men were being far too picky, and rather than being grateful for what they were given, instead wanted 7 children each, as if they were medals or something.

Paul, what you have to understand from a Muslim perspective that raising and supporting a family is considered one of the greatest joys. Many Muslim families are traditionally larger. In part due to the culture of Islam and also in part due to the fact that many Muslims live in poor countries. In poor countries, such as these, it is normal to raise a large family. Large being a relative word ranging from 7 to 14. Men aren't being picky, rather they want to create a strong family from the efforts of his wife and himself and see the fruits of their labor. Despite this, all Muslims are grateful for the children they have, whether adopted or not, and consider it one of their greatest responsibilities as raising their children in a positive manner.

It is very likely that many Western Women will find that situation, if they're married by a Man who wants kids, and then he doesn't love her, by marrying another Woman and leaving her - which is something practiced legitimately in Islam (Polygyny).
Let's not forget a lot of people in the World would see such a thing as an act of "cheating", and therefore would be a sign that the cheater doesn't love them.

Paul, Islam is the only religion in the world the places a limit on Polygamy. If anything it prevents Men from abusing women and creating harems say of 30 degraded women working as common prostitutes.

A women is given the option of specifying that her husband cannot marry another in Islam. If she prefers, and I can very well understand why she would, to include this term then it is her Islamic right to do so. Furthermore, if her husband does practice polygamy, then he has to divide his care, attention, and financial support equally. Each wife has her own domain of the house and each wife is the dominant figure in her house.

In Islam a man cannot marry a women and then leave her. This is adultery, one of the biggest sins a Muslim can commit and one of the most condemning. You truly have no dignity if you leave your wife and kids for another women.

Having 21 children would affect both the Mother and Father.

Yet in Islam the task of raising children is the most important and considered the more difficult task.

Why doesn't Islamic law allow 3 or 4 Women to share a house if they're all married to each other/the same Husband? What's the problem with that?

Because a women is in control of the house. It is her domain. If there are two other women, not only does she no longer have control over her own house, but most likely rival interests will develop and there will be a type of competition against each other. Most likely it would drive the family apart.

Is there also a contract where Husbands can object to their Wives marrying multiple Men, yet in general the practice can still be carried out if they both consent to it (like with Polygyny)?

There is no such contract because women cannot marry other Men. The practice of Polygamy was tolerated, not endorsed, because it was practical at the time. The widows of slain warriors and aged men would have been left to die. Especially in such a patriarchal society, where before women had been so brutally repressed. There was no reason to take the already small population of Men and further strain it.

Also I believe that Katzpur's response also applies to our discussion.

Islam's version of polygamy is a discriminatory and exclusivist 'solution'

UV can you please explain how?

It's always so nice when some people decide that other people's love relationships are harmful for them.

It was harmful. It was harmful for a society 1400 years back. Men marrying other men did not contribute to the younger generation. It would only result in a smaller and smaller gene pool and would have directly led to the decline of Arabia.

 

[blackout]

To call a 9 year old a woman is completely laughable.

Most nine year olds don't even wear training bras. lololol!

And nine years of life experience...
4 as a baby and 5 as a child who still plays with toys
gives one the maturity to be called an adult?

I'm sorry. Any adult who has sex with a nine year old is a pervert and a child molester.
It's a gross injustice. And I mean that quite literally.

I don't care what culture you're from.

 

[Aquitaine]

Paul, what you have to understand from a Muslim perspective that raising and supporting a family is considered one of the greatest joys. Many Muslim families are traditionally larger. In part due to the culture of Islam and also in part due to the fact that many Muslims live in poor countries. In poor countries, such as these, it is normal to raise a large family. Large being a relative word ranging from 7 to 14. Men aren't being picky, rather they want to create a strong family from the efforts of his wife and himself and see the fruits of their labor. Despite this, all Muslims are grateful for the children they have, whether adopted or not, and consider it one of their greatest responsibilities as raising their children in a positive manner.

Paul, Islam is the only religion in the world the places a limit on Polygamy. If anything it prevents Men from abusing women and creating harems say of 30 degraded women working as common prostitutes.

A women is given the option of specifying that her husband cannot marry another in Islam. If she prefers, and I can very well understand why she would, to include this term then it is her Islamic right to do so. Furthermore, if her husband does practice polygamy, then he has to divide his care, attention, and financial support equally. Each wife has her own domain of the house and each wife is the dominant figure in her house.

In Islam a man cannot marry a women and then leave her. This is adultery, one of the biggest sins a Muslim can commit and one of the most condemning. You truly have no dignity if you leave your wife and kids for another women.

Yet in Islam the task of raising children is the most important and considered the more difficult task.

Because a women is in control of the house. It is her domain. If there are two other women, not only does she no longer have control over her own house, but most likely rival interests will develop and there will be a type of competition against each other. Most likely it would drive the family apart.

There is no such contract because women cannot marry other Men. The practice of Polygamy was tolerated, not endorsed, because it was practical at the time. The widows of slain warriors and aged men would have been left to die. Especially in such a patriarchal society, where before women had been so brutally repressed. There was no reason to take the already small population of Men and further strain it.

Also I believe that Katzpur's response also applies to our discussion.



[/color][/b]UV can you please explain how?



It was harmful. It was harmful for a society 1400 years back. Men marrying other men did not contribute to the younger generation. It would only result in a smaller and smaller gene pool and would have directly led to the decline of Arabia.

Abibi, to prevent confusion and too much "backtracking" etc, do you want me to reply and focus on the issues in this post you just made, or shall we go ahead with the other one I posted (about Aisha and research etc), and therefore wait for your responce?

It's better, as I'm sure you can agree, if we focus on one thread at a time, y' know.

It's your call, which shall we focus on first, I don't mind either way?

 

[Bismillah]

Sorry, i'm about to leave. I'll try and reply tomorrow, hopefully i'll be able to (coah is a real douche).

Yeah, I would rather go about it one point at a time.

 

[Aquitaine]

Sorry, i'm about to leave. I'll try and reply tomorrow, hopefully i'll be able to (coah is a real douche).

Yeah, I would rather go about it one point at a time.

Sure thing, no worries.

Catch you later then, enjoy your practice (I presume by "coach" you mean sports team).

 

[Smoke]

I want to ask a question from western people , thier culture allowed them having relationship with even 10 of girls without marrigae , without marriage means no respect in society, no rights, no body no who was the father of children if somebody has illegal relationship with women , thats all are OK for you

but marring more than a women is strange for you ? why ? that give women equal right , respect in society, love .

In the Islamic system, women are equal to one another but are not equal to men. In the modern Western system, women are equal to one another and also equal to men.

The point is that the Hindu scriptures don't prohibit Polygamy, therefore it's surely allowed in Hinduism

Nonsense. A religion is more than its scriptures. This is true even in Islam, the most fanatically book-worshiping religion in the world, where the ahadith are endlessly discussed and taken into account in addition to the Qur'an. To say that another religion allows polygamy when it does not is a shameful lie, and to tell such a lie to promote Islam brings shame on Islam.

If they can have Polgyny, then why not Polyandry too?

Because the Qur'an states that a man may not marry a woman who is already married, and that a man must rule over his wife. Female equality is not possible when the Qur'an is accepted as infallible.

why did Mo' marry a child

Because the marriage was advantageous for the men involved. Abu Bakr was a wealthy, respected and influential man, and it was to Muhammad's advantage to strengthen his alliance with Abu Bakr by marrying Abu Bakr's daughter. Likewise, Abu Bakr's status as Muhammad's father-in-law brought him added prestige within the Muslim community.

 

[Gharib]

To call a 9 year old a woman is completely laughable.

Most nine year olds don't even wear training bras. lololol!

And nine years of life experience...
4 as a baby and 5 as a child who still plays with toys
gives one the maturity to be called an adult?

I'm sorry. Any adult who has sex with a nine year old is a pervert and a child molester.
It's a gross injustice. And I mean that quite literally.

I don't care what culture you're from.

have you come across anything that i haven't?

where did you hear that Muhamed (saws) had sex with Aisha (ra) at 9?

 

[Gharib]

Because the Qur'an states that a man may not marry a woman who is already married, and that a man must rule over his wife. Female equality is not possible when the Qur'an is accepted as infallible.


Because the marriage was advantageous for the men involved. Abu Bakr was a wealthy, respected and influential man, and it was to Muhammad's advantage to strengthen his alliance with Abu Bakr by marrying Abu Bakr's daughter. Likewise, Abu Bakr's status as Muhammad's father-in-law brought him added prestige within the Muslim community.

geee, you seem to know more about islamic law than i do, honest.

so you see he did not marry Aisha (ra) for his own pleasure, she was offered to him by his closest friend.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

In the Islamic system, women are equal to one another but are not equal to men. In the modern Western system, women are equal to one another and also equal to men.


Nonsense. A religion is more than its scriptures. This is true even in Islam, the most fanatically book-worshiping religion in the world, where the ahadith are endlessly discussed and taken into account in addition to the Qur'an. To say that another religion allows polygamy when it does not is a shameful lie, and to tell such a lie to promote Islam brings shame on Islam.



Because the Qur'an states that a man may not marry a woman who is already married, and that a man must rule over his wife. Female equality is not possible when the Qur'an is accepted as infallible.


Because the marriage was advantageous for the men involved. Abu Bakr was a wealthy, respected and influential man, and it was to Muhammad's advantage to strengthen his alliance with Abu Bakr by marrying Abu Bakr's daughter. Likewise, Abu Bakr's status as Muhammad's father-in-law brought him added prestige within the Muslim community.

Anytime male privilege is mandated as an absolute in any structure be it secular or religious, I get a little feisty. Here, a man can have more than one wife....which I personally am OK with. But to try to reason with the masses why women are not allowed to have more than one husband is when we see the attempts to objectify women as little more than baby factories. And I have major disagreements with the merits of such reasoning.

 

[Perfect Circle]

geee, you seem to know more about islamic law than i do, honest.

so you see he did not marry Aisha (ra) for his own pleasure, she was offered to him by his closest friend.

Yeah, I don't see a reason to beat this issue to death. It was obviously a political marriage, and I'm sure any mention of consumation of the marriage was included in order to make it more valid. The prophet had no history of pedophelia, and in fact, his first wife was much older than him.

 

[Gharib]

Anytime male privilege is mandated as an absolute in any structure be it secular or religious, I get a little feisty. Here, a man can have more than one wife....which I personally am OK with. But to try to reason with the masses why women are not allowed to have more than one husband is when we see the attempts to objectify women as little more than baby factories. And I have major disagreements with the merits of such reasoning.

thats not the reason why polygamy is allowed in islam, you are actually quite off.

i'll let you in it a little, when the islamic empire was established at first the muslims had 3 major wars against the the non believers of mecca, and in one of the wars about 300 men were lost, so women outnubered men by quite a lot, and to prevent children growin up as orphans and immproper, the men were told to marry a max of 4 women, and most of them were widows with kids. polygamy at the moment is quite low in muslim countries even though it is not prohibited to those who meet the criteria.

EDIT: the men were allowed 4 women but if they feared injustice towards them then 3 or 2 or just one was enough.

 

[Gharib]

Yeah, I don't see a reason to beat this issue to death. It was obviously a political marriage, and I'm sure any mention of consumation of the marriage was included in order to make it more valid. The prophet had no history of pedophelia, and in fact, his first wife was much older than him.

yes you are right.

most of his wives were actually older and widows also, and with Aisha (ra) by consumation i think is meant the contract that was made between them. but am not too sure i will try to find out.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

thats not the reason why polygamy is allowed in islam, you are actually quite off.

i'll let you in it a little, when the islamic empire was established at first the muslims had 3 major wars against the the non believers of mecca, and in one of the wars about 300 men were lost, so women outnubered men by quite a lot, and to prevent children growin up as orphans and immproper, the men were told to marry a max of 4 women, and most of them were widows with kids. polygamy at the moment is quite low in muslim countries even though it is not prohibited to those who meet the criteria.

EDIT: the men were allowed 4 women but if they feared injustice towards them then 3 or 2 or just one was enough.

Again, that's fine and all for pragmatic reasons, but what about times in societies where the men outnumber the women? I am waiting for a reason that women are not allowed to practice polyandry that doesn't reduce a woman's humanity to be lower than her fellow male.

 

[Gharib]

Again, that's fine and all for pragmatic reasons, but what about times in societies where the men outnumber the women? I am waiting for a reason that women are not allowed to practice polyandry that doesn't reduce a woman's humanity to be lower than her fellow male.

interesting point but it actually fails in this case.

for the first muslims, the out numbering wasn't about one neighbourhood or one street, but the entire muslim population, even though it isn't comparable to the populationn of today, we again must take into consideration the overall nuber of muslims rather than just that of one citie, qatar is sorrounded by other arab nations, it's not issolated.

and at present, i think it is the women who out number men, overall, without any distinguishment.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

interesting point but it actually fails in this case.

for the first muslims, the out numbering wasn't about one neighbourhood or one street, but the entire muslim population, even though it isn't comparable to the populationn of today, we again must take into consideration the overall nuber of muslims rather than just that of one citie, qatar is sorrounded by other arab nations, it's not issolated.

and at present, i think it is the women who out number men, overall, without any distinguishment.

I'm sensing some back-pedaling here.

I gave one example, which is actually quite relevant. But there are other examples of when men start outnumbering women for reasons other than the influx of men for work - such as female infanticide, or such as draconian population control policies like one-child-per-family where males are favored (re:China)

Think they or Armenia, India, or several other countries who institute male privilege are going to start encouraging polyandry anytime soon?

 

[Guitar's Cry]

***MOD POST***

Thread closed for Mod Review.
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[Quagmire]

***Mod Post***

Several pages of off topic posts have been deleted. Thread re-opened.
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[EtuMalku]

I'm not sure if this has been brought up (some posts have been removed and I haven't carefully read through every page here) but what of this?

Muhammad's sunnah (practice) was polygamy, the Qur'an instructs about polygamy, and there are Muslim leaders in the West who want polygamy. Islam is then a polygamist religion.
In Islam a man is allowed multiple wives and an unlimited number of slave girls.

And those (men) who preserve their chastity Save with their wives and those whom their right hands possess, for thus they are not blameworthy. (Qur'an 70:29-30, Pickthall)​

However, while Muhammad had many wives and slaves girls, and taught this in the Qur'an, he would only allow his son-in-law, Ali, to have one wife. Why? Because Ali was married to Muhammad's daughter, Fatima.

Narrated Al-Miswar bin Makhrama: I heard Allah's Apostle who was on the pulpit, saying, "Banu Hisham bin Al-Mughira have requested me to allow them to marry their daughter to Ali bin Abu Talib, but I don't give permission, and will not give permission unless 'Ali bin Abi Talib divorces my daughter in order to marry their daughter, because Fatima is a part of my body, and I hate what she hates to see, and what hurts her, hurts me." (Bukhari: volume 7, book 62, number 157, Khan)​

What hypocrisy!
Polygamy is fundamentally different to monogamy. In a monogamous marriage the man and women both promise to be sexually faithful to each other and to bind themselves to each other alone. However, in a polygamous marriage only the woman is bound to the man and must be sexually faithful to him. The man is free to keep looking for other women. Polygamy completely changes the way a man thinks about women and what it means to be faithful to them.