What are the best arguments in favor of theism and against atheism?

[Cephus]

Especially a word that has completely different baggage.

Does "universe" have any baggage?

 

[Willamena]

That is up to you, you made a statement without any sort of evidence and apparent cannot provide any evidence. I am not putting words in your mouth, i am typing my response to your statement.

It's on me to make an argument, yes, and I didn't. I was at work, and didn't have the time or resources to do so. I apologize. But you did present your questions in the form of putting words in my mouth, and the evidence of that is prior posts (#190 and #175). The trumpian accusation of my having no evidence is also fallacious.

A religious myth is a story that utilizes metaphor to explain a relationship between an individual's or group's history or culture, and the sacred. The connection, depicted in story, is invariably an experience that relates one to that history, the cultural tradition, and the sacred symbol. A fine example is the labyrinth down-which one transpires in pursuit of an end, and up-which one gains in enlightenment or self-discovery; or the wheel of time that carries us variably through a moment, a life-time, or multiple lives, and through which there is no escape but to transcend (recognize) that one is on the wheel. The story cannot be utilized to express such a relationship until and unless there is something to express.

For scholarly reading about mythology I point you at the following resources:
http://dc.etsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3471&context=etd
Ep. 1: Joseph Campbell and the Power of Myth -- 'The Hero’s Adventure' | BillMoyers.com
Mythology, Weltanschauung, symbolic universe and states of consciousness (PDF Download Available)

For less scholarly mythology, I point you to Marvel comics:

 

[Ben Dhyan]

You said absolute, absolute nothing cannot have dimensions.

What is it about my statement that you do not know such and make the claim only on emotion alone. The conditions before 10e-42 of a second after the big bang are unknown and may remain unknown for ever, stomping your foot will make no difference to your guess. What is known is that the laws you are claiming eternal did not exist before the big bang. Therefore you cannot cite those laws in any argument prior to (or immediately after) the event

Not according to science, there is nothing in science to say that our universe did not come from nothing

As for logic, it is based on what is known given present conditions and experience. Again, not relevant prior to the big bang.

You have not understood what is being said to you, all conceptual aspects including 'dimensions' of the One arise as an artifact of the workings of the dualisti human mind, absolute reality though is beyond conceptualizing, beyond knowing, beyond description. Theories of the universe, scientific or other, are not, and never will be able realize the oneness, realization of oneness in the religious sense though is possible.

Consider......words, numbers, thoughts, beliefs, symbols, etc., are conceptions of the human mind, they are meant to represent reality or an some aspect of it, but please understand that the reality these concepts are meant to stand for, are forever on the other side of the mind's comprehension. Science can never apprehend oneness. This is not to say that the human mind's conceptions are not helpful for the ongoing evolution of human souls, but there is much more to reality than the human mind can ever comprehend.

 

[ChristineM]

It's on me to make an argument, yes, and I didn't. I was at work, and didn't have the time or resources to do so. I apologize. But you did present your questions in the form of putting words in my mouth, and the evidence of that is prior posts (#190 and #175). The trumpian accusation of my having no evidence is also fallacious.

A religious myth is a story that utilizes metaphor to explain a relationship between an individual's or group's history or culture, and the sacred. The connection, depicted in story, is invariably an experience that relates one to that history, the cultural tradition, and the sacred symbol. A fine example is the labyrinth down-which one transpires in pursuit of an end, and up-which one gains in enlightenment or self-discovery; or the wheel of time that carries us variably through a moment, a life-time, or multiple lives, and through which there is no escape but to transcend (recognize) that one is on the wheel. The story cannot be utilized to express such a relationship until and unless there is something to express.

For scholarly reading about mythology I point you at the following resources:
http://dc.etsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3471&context=etd
Ep. 1: Joseph Campbell and the Power of Myth -- 'The Hero’s Adventure' | BillMoyers.com
Mythology, Weltanschauung, symbolic universe and states of consciousness (PDF Download Available)

For less scholarly mythology, I point you to Marvel comics:

If my manner of querying a statement rubs you up the wrong way then im sorry it rubs you up the wrong way but i won't be changing any time soon.

I still see no evidence, i do see supposition, assumption, conjecture, story telling, as you actually state. Even some valid research, but none provides evidence, just discussion

Here is the definition of evidence.
Evidence - the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.

And marvel comics are evidence of marvel comics, not of mythology being evidenced.

 

[ChristineM]

You have not understood what is being said to you, all conceptual aspects including 'dimensions' of the One arise as an artifact of the workings of the dualisti human mind, absolute reality though is beyond conceptualizing, beyond knowing, beyond description. Theories of the universe, scientific or other, are not, and never will be able realize the oneness, realization of oneness in the religious sense though is possible.

Consider......words, numbers, thoughts, beliefs, symbols, etc., are conceptions of the human mind, they are meant to represent reality or an some aspect of it, but please understand that the reality these concepts are meant to stand for, are forever on the other side of the mind's comprehension. Science can never apprehend oneness. This is not to say that the human mind's conceptions are not helpful for the ongoing evolution of human souls, but there is much more to reality than the human mind can ever comprehend.

It seems the obverse is true, the human mind did not even exist until a few thousand years ago and so has nothing to do with events almost 14 billion years ago.

Honey, i don't understand how faith based religion has anything to do with reality, with knowledge, with scientific and evidential facts and truth (in the true sense of the word as opposed to the Christian "truthiness," excuse for the hard of thinking), so yes , you do have a point there, i do not understand what is basically hyped up mumbo jumbo.

You claim the mind cannot realise absolute reality while claiming absolute reality of the religious mind, do you not see the paradox here? Or are you saying religion is beyond knowledge?

Facts remain facts and knowledge trumps belief every time. You are welcome to your belief but it will never represent universal reality

 

[Segev Moran]

Although the universe as we know and understand it is potentially infinite

First, as you said yourself: "as we know".
Thing is, that is not a true statement. The true statement is:
The observable universe.
Meaning the part of the universe we can see...
The fact we call it the Observable universe, means we KNOW that there is a part we can't (yet) see...

We can't really tell if the universe is infinite or not.

God is unknown for a reason, the non existent is unknowable.

The fact one doesn't know, doesn't make the unknown non-existent!
That would be a very scary court system if we were all governed by this rule

Lol:

Your honor, I do not know where the murder weapon is.
Well then, If you don't know, surely it doesn't exist! let the man go you fools!!!

I will repeat them if you wish

please do

 

[Willamena]

If my manner of querying a statement rubs you up the wrong way then im sorry it rubs you up the wrong way but i won't be changing any time soon.

I still see no evidence, i do see supposition, assumption, conjecture, story telling, as you actually state. Even some valid research, but none provides evidence, just discussion

Evidence of what?

Here is the definition of evidence.
Evidence - the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.

And marvel comics are evidence of marvel comics, not of mythology being evidenced.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

It seems the obverse is true, the human mind did not even exist until a few thousand years ago and so has nothing to do with events almost 14 billion years ago.

Honey, i don't understand how faith based religion has anything to do with reality, with knowledge, with scientific and evidential facts and truth (in the true sense of the word as opposed to the Christian "truthiness," excuse for the hard of thinking), so yes , you do have a point there, i do not understand what is basically hyped up mumbo jumbo.

You claim the mind cannot realise absolute reality while claiming absolute reality of the religious mind, do you not see the paradox here? Or are you saying religion is beyond knowledge?

Facts remain facts and knowledge trumps belief every time. You are welcome to your belief but it will never represent universal reality

Haha....are you cereal, you are a true believer of big bang theory. I understand that, like all educational instruction, prerequisite knowledge is required for understanding that which is yet not understood, so merely grabbing onto some belief as a substitute for actual understanding is not understanding.

i don't do belief, but live in the here and now where continuous revelation unfolds. My religious practice of a solitary kind, still mind meditation, no faith involved for the results speak for themselves...ever unfolding realization of my inner nature, unspeakable glory wrt underlying unity of the one that is all.

You do not understand what is being said to you, the religious mind is not the same as the conceptual mind.....no paradox involved.

 

[Cephus]

If my manner of querying a statement rubs you up the wrong way then im sorry it rubs you up the wrong way but i won't be changing any time soon.

I still see no evidence, i do see supposition, assumption, conjecture, story telling, as you actually state. Even some valid research, but none provides evidence, just discussion

Here is the definition of evidence.
Evidence - the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.

And marvel comics are evidence of marvel comics, not of mythology being evidenced.

There's a reason theists continually commit the "Spider-Man Fallacy". Just because New York exists does not mean Spider-Man is real.

 

[ChristineM]

First, as you said yourself: "as we know".
Thing is, that is not a true statement. The true statement is:
The observable universe.
Meaning the part of the universe we can see...
The fact we call it the Observable universe, means we KNOW that there is a part we can't (yet) see...

We can't really tell if the universe is infinite or not.

The fact one doesn't know, doesn't make the unknown non-existent!
That would be a very scary court system if we were all governed by this rule

Lol:

Your honor, I do not know where the murder weapon is.
Well then, If you don't know, surely it doesn't exist! let the man go you fools!!!



please do

The cmb has been measured (triangulated) showing the observable universe as flat to 5 decimal places (as opposed to curved) thus showing that the observable universe is potentially infinite. From this, given observations of universal movement and logic ( part (the smaller part) of an object cannot be infinite within a finite outer volume) it can be inferred the 26 billion light years or so in every direction that we cannot see follows what we can see.

Outside context error... Redo from start... Perhaps you are saying here that you can know the nonexistent?

E=mc2 shows the god of revelation 19:6 kjv cannot exist in this universe at the same time as you

Proof by exhaustion shows no gods have ever exited, in about 10,000 years of deity worship literally billions of people have tried and failed to prove their god(s) exited, every single one failed, it would only take one success to overturn that proof... Just one against billions

Childhood leukemia shows no compassionate god exists

The mosquito shows no designer god exists

The futility of prayer shows no listening god exists

 

[ChristineM]

Evidence of what?

You said myths sprang up for a reason, i am asking for evidence of this claim.

 

[ChristineM]

Haha....are you cereal, you are a true believer of big bang theory. I understand that, like all educational instruction, prerequisite knowledge is required for understanding that which is yet not understood, so merely grabbing onto some belief as a substitute for actual understanding is not understanding.

i don't do belief, but live in the here and now where continuous revelation unfolds. My religious practice of a solitary kind, still mind meditation, no faith involved for the results speak for themselves...ever unfolding realization of my inner nature, unspeakable glory wrt underlying unity of the one that is all.

You do not understand what is being said to you, the religious mind is not the same as the conceptual mind.....no paradox involved.

Your hyperbole is based on you ignorance of my understanding, i can see that, but it is not really an excuse.

The discussion was not the here and now but the 13+ billion years ago and i don't do straw men.

Yes i know exactly what you are saying, you are saying your belief in magic outweighs literally millions of man years of education, observation, and measurement.

Sorry bud, guesswork does not cut the mustard

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Your hyperbole is based on you ignorance of my understanding, i can see that, but it is not really an excuse.

The discussion was not the here and now but the 13+ billion years ago and i don't do straw men.

Yes i know exactly what you are saying, you are saying your belief in magic outweighs literally millions of man years of education, observation, and measurement.

Sorry bud, guesswork does not cut the mustard

A big bang 13+ billion years ago is merely a belief you hold, monkey knowledge you picked up along the time track in your life. True, literal belief in religious dogma is also monkey knowledge, but my point, which you call a strawman, is to point out that belief in both, theism or atheism, is not true understanding. If there is anything at all you do not understand, do not look for some some belief that will provide a rationale, for that will not mean understanding, but to seek first the prerequisite knowledge essential to understanding,

You do not understand what is being said to you, it has been explained to you that it is belief that is magic, belief can make evil appear good in your mind, and good evil, non-conceptual realization otoh does not involve belief, it is true understanding. The definition of true understanding is not only understanding understanding, but also understanding not understanding..

 

[Willamena]

You said myths sprang up for a reason, i am asking for evidence of this claim.

I gave my argument: you can't make a story that relates one to a history, culture, or the sacred without an actual connection to such. Logic is my evidence.

 

[ChristineM]

A big bang 13+ billion years ago is merely a belief you hold, monkey knowledge you picked up along the time track in your life. True, literal belief in religious dogma is also monkey knowledge, but my point, which you call a strawman, is to point out that belief in both, theism or atheism, is not true understanding. If there is anything at all you do not understand, do not look for some some belief that will provide a rationale, for that will not mean understanding, but to seek first the prerequisite knowledge essential to understanding,

You do not understand what is being said to you, it has been explained to you that it is belief that is magic, belief can make evil appear good in your mind, and good evil, non-conceptual realization otoh does not involve belief, it is true understanding. The definition of true understanding is not only understanding understanding, but also understanding not understanding..

The big bang, although misnamed

(it's more rapid inflation than explosion) is known to have happened, several different and complimentary evidences exist. From the first understanding of the observation by Edwin Hubble resulting in the now famous Hubble diagram

Through red shift, showing the universe to be expanding and thus at one stage in the past was a point that grew. Through wmap and the CMB which show the residual heat of the event right down to tuning your TV off station, a percentage of the static you hear is left over radiation from the event.

Now all you need to do is show comparable evidence for your claims... Waiting.

As to your last paragraph - What???

You really do not comprehend where i have been and how i arrived where i am. You can repeat that i don't understand what you are saying as often as you like, it makes no difference to the fact that your belief is a product of a willing and susceptible childhood mind at the hands of religious. When you have evidence of God magic, eternity etc come back and try again, i bore of the same old baseless rhetoric.

 

[ChristineM]

I gave my argument: you can't make a story that relates one to a history, culture, or the sacred without an actual connection to such. Logic is my evidence.

Of course you can make a story without a connection, go to any bookshop and see for yourself, all you need is imagination.

Actually what you provided was not logic but faith. Faith is not logical, faith is not evidence. Faith is belief without proof.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

The big bang, although misnamed

(it's more rapid inflation than explosion) is known to have happened, several different and complimentary evidences exist. From the first understanding of the observation by Edwin Hubble resulting in the now famous Hubble diagram

Through red shift, showing the universe to be expanding and thus at one stage in the past was a point that grew. Through wmap and the CMB which show the residual heat of the event right down to tuning your TV off station, a percentage of the static you hear is left over radiation from the event.

Now all you need to do is show comparable evidence for your claims... Waiting.

As to your last paragraph - What???

You really do not comprehend where i have been and how i arrived where i am. You can repeat that i don't understand what you are saying as often as you like, it makes no difference to the fact that your belief is a product of a willing and susceptible childhood mind at the hands of religious. When you have evidence of God magic, eternity etc come back and try again, i bore of the same old baseless rhetoric.

Copy and posting comic jokes and theoretical observations of cosmic phenomena concerning 2.5% of the universe is no proof. But ok, I get it, you have faith in your beliefs of the dogma of the big bang theory, you can lead a horse to water but....

 

[Vaderecta]

I'd say the cosmological argument is the best argument for a (first) cause that is not a cause within the system. Given that energy is neither created nor destroyed within a closed system, the origin is energy (or of the quantum vacuum) would seem to be a mystery, easily solved by a cause outside of the system.

But whether or not that is an argument for "theism," per se, I'm not willing to say. It obviously isn't an argument for a God who throws down lightning bolts to punish people, or Jesus dying for my sins.

Wasn't it recently posited that if you add up all the energy in the universe then you will end up with 0? (I think the author of a "Universe from nothing" made that claim but I didn't really look into it but if that is so it kind of defeats the argument)

 

[Vaderecta]

Far as I can tell, pretty much the only significant argument for theism is that it arises spontaneously in many people (not very many, but some).

Still, that is/should be hardly a factor in choosing a religion or a religious stance. Religions that "demand" or even strongly expect theism are simply misguided, IMO.

I believe there is a theory which explains that. (Not sure it's a great theory but it is fascinating) Its the idea that you have two brains... the left side and right side and they are connected by this much smaller channel of wiring and prior to developing our current consciousness one side would tell the other what to do and that communication was considered supernatural.

That is a really bastardized view of the idea though. I was watching westworld and then anthony hopkins quoted this book I read years ago by Julian Jaynes and then I read it again and it pretty much explains that whole concept. Dawkins quoted him in the God Delusion and stated something along the lines of "It's either genius or the ramblings of a madman but he was hedging his bets". Despite that it's a very interesting read. I would also recommend if you like this topic to read Sapiens by Yuval Harari. (It's just fantastic)

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Wasn't it recently posited that if you add up all the energy in the universe then you will end up with 0? (I think the author of a "Universe from nothing" made that claim but I didn't really look into it but if that is so it kind of defeats the argument)

The idea could not work in reality, the sum total of the mass and energy in the universe is constant, nothing can be added to it, nor any taken away..