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Western Taoism

PivotalSyntax

Spiritual Luftmensch
On my spiritual journey I have come across Tao and I am pulled into it, because it speaks very clearly to me. It seems to all make sense to me. But I have a few concerns. Is the western Tao misconstrued and butchered? It seems that the Eastern Taoism has traditional religious practices. Ritual, ceremony, and superstition are things that I do not understand, nor believe in. The Western Taoism (from what I've read and seen) does not seem to possess this religious aspect. Is this because it has been altered and morphed out of it's original form? Or is western Tao still very much Tao? I just do not want to start reading about Tao, and find out that these readings or translations have been wrongly interpreted by westerners. Are my concerns out of place? Should I not be worried at all?
 

xkatz

Well-Known Member
I have not encountered a "Westernized" version of Taoism, let alone hear of such a thing. Taoism is not really a religion one embraces, however.
 

Herr Heinrich

Student of Mythology
On my spiritual journey I have come across Tao and I am pulled into it, because it speaks very clearly to me. It seems to all make sense to me. But I have a few concerns. Is the western Tao misconstrued and butchered? It seems that the Eastern Taoism has traditional religious practices. Ritual, ceremony, and superstition are things that I do not understand, nor believe in. The Western Taoism (from what I've read and seen) does not seem to possess this religious aspect. Is this because it has been altered and morphed out of it's original form? Or is western Tao still very much Tao? I just do not want to start reading about Tao, and find out that these readings or translations have been wrongly interpreted by westerners. Are my concerns out of place? Should I not be worried at all?

I think you may be confusing Western Taoism with Philosophical Taoism. What you are calling Eastern Taoism is Religious Taoism. Philosophical Taoism is based mainly on the writings of Changzu and Lao Tzu and does not have the extra rituals and such that Religious Taoism have. They are both Eastern in origin because they come out of China. As westerners we cannot really participate in Religious Taoism anyway because we are not part of the Chinese culture. Religious Taoism, Confucianism, and Buddhism are all aspects of the Chinese cultural religion. So maybe that is why you are getting confused.
 

Onkara

Well-Known Member
Hi PivotalSyntax
If you speak to westerners you will understand western view of Taoism intially. Later you will have enough resources to begin to see how western ideology and theology influences the thoughts, until that time arrives there is no problem because it is relative to you. You are after all in the west and so applying Tao to a western life is both practical and intelligent.

My understanding is the practices, religion and martial arts associated with Taoism came AFTER tao. In other words you don't need them to follow Tao, but rather they came to help those who couldn't find their way or were looking to incorporate Taoism into their lives i.e. Religious, spiritual, martial etc.

The liberating aspect of Taoism is that you don't need anything to come to know and benefit from it :D
 

wmjbyatt

Lunatic from birth
I'm not entirely convinced it's possible to misconstrue and butcher the Tao. Now, when you talk about the Tao you may not be naming the same unnameable that I am, but such is the Way. The thing with the Tao is that an understanding of it is a highly personal thing. Different people understand the Tao very differently. There is historical evidence that many ancient Taoists were deeply concerned with extending their biological lives and would often forsake the enjoyment of life for that purpose. This stands in stark contradiction to the Tao as I understand it, but that does not mean it is not Tao.

As the man who first spoke to me about the Tao once flippantly remarked when we were discussing this very topic: "The only thing more Tao than the Tao is the Anti-Tao."
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend PS,

Taoism has nothing to do with the east or the west they are just directions and this directions are relative. If you are in space there are no directions there but *Tao* is just a label for an understanding that existence has certain laws by which it is governed and that which it follows. If we humans are able to understand and follow these laws we live in harmony, in peace, in heaven, we live an enlightened life.

What you speak of are all marketing gimmicks to segregate the human mind into categories for their own survival.

Love & rgds
 

Wessexman

Member
I admit from the start to not being an expert but only a relatively informed amateur. That said I'll give my views, which will no doubt be unpopular with some here.

There are some good Western writings on traditional Taoism such as the work of Jean Cooper.

Also for me at least Western and other Oriental ideas have helped me understand Taoism(and Buddhism.) better because of the initial gap in conceptions between the West and the East. Most notably Platonist-Pythagorean theosophy, Cabalah, Sufism, certain Christian mystics, Vedanta and Buddhism could all be aids depending on one's knowledge and temperament. I would even go to say that there is a common esoteric core and wisdom to all these tradition, which is in essense one truth expressed diversely. However on the other hand each of these traditions speaks it own language, has its own perspective and is certainly a very distinct form which cannot be spliced with another and one must always be sure not to say Platonise or Vedantise Taoism(or Buddhism or whatever.) but to use one position to carefully conceptualise another without ever forgetting the very real, if ultimately perhaps relative and outer, differences.

So in that way the West has not butchered Taoism but can, at least for its own members, help it to be understood. For instance for a Westerner many statements about the Tao can be rather elliptical but some of this is confusion is cleared up if one realises that the Tao is ultimately very close to the Platonic One or the Advaita Vedanta Nirguna Brahman or even the Godhead of Meister Eckhart. Now this is what is in the Dharmic faiths known as an Upaya or relative but effectual truth, at the level of discursive thought the One is not exactly the Tao. There are nuances in perspective and one should not simply treat Taoism as a Chinese Platonism or Vedanta, and after all Plotinus, Shankara and Laozu all remind us that the One/Tao/Brahman is ultimately beyond the level of words and mental conceptions. However there is still a core of useful truth in the comparison, and I certainly think it is a better position than much of Western thought on Taoism or Buddhism. It also reminds us of the somewhat artificial nature of the Western divide between "philosophical" and "religious" Taoism.

And this brings us to the negative Western conceptions of Taoism(and Buddhism.). Put quite simply much of what passes for Western thought on Taoism(and Buddhism.) is nonsense. The West has become increasingly closed to the real spiritual nature of its own traditions and this makes it very hard for it to understand the Eastern traditions, still replete with real spiritual perspectives. This is why you get a lot of Western Taoism and Buddhism which has little in common with the profound depth of these traditional faiths but is very egoist, individualist and ultimately anti-contemplative. Taoism is not whatever one wishes it to be, that is why "religious" Taoism grew up. It was not alien to the writings of Laozu and Changzu but was largely an elaboration on the truths of their work in ways that could be spiritually beneficial to the populace.

In reality, and contrary to one of the above comments, you do need to follow the practices of "religious" Taoism to get anywhere with Taoism as a spiritual path, whether you are looking for an esoteric path or simply the salvific path of the average, genuine faithful. This is because you are human. You need the discipline and support of a tradition that has been elaborated from the main, original sources of Taoism based on real and broad spiritual understandings of them. You are unlikely to be able to achieve this without submitting to the traditional practices and I've yet to come across a Western Taoist who has gone their own way and it has worked. To go back to the classical Western analogies Taoism is not akin to the degenerated, Pantheistic Stoic doctrines which saw nature as simply the sum total of the physical universe and taught that man should simply adapt his will to this conception. No it is akin to the Eleatic-Pythagorean-Platonic doctrines where the One is both the universe and infinitely more, it is the absolute, the infinite, the Good, the Beautiful, the Truth indeed the Supreme Quality. The universe is but a relative manifestation of certain possibilities within this limitless all-possibility and also a reflection of it, within ourselves there is also a microcosm that reflects and has direct access to the macrocosm of the absolute. Our goal then is not that of certain Stoics, to live simply in accordance with nature in its most gross and material sense but to live according to our true nature, which is living according to true nature of the One, of God or the Tao. This is not something that we simply achieve idly, with no spiritual effort, by living as we like. It is done by remembering, by using our knowledge and our inner Intellect which is beyond mere discursive thought but is a direct spiritual intuition which unites knowing and being and it is done by taking us beyond the relative plane of the universe, beyond accident to the absolute plane of substance, of the One. It requires meditation, the suppression of temptation and worldly attachment, the cultivation of inner virtues and most especially the already mentioned use of one's Intellect; the eye of the heart. So one can seen why if you choose the Taoist path it is essential you do not listen to Westerners who tell you to be a Taoist means simply to do whatever you want, that there are not set dogmas or practices. Instead you must follow what is often disparaged as "religious" Taoism. Even the esoteric and the mystic requires the support and discipline of such a tradition and of a spiritual master and guide.
 
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Onkara

Well-Known Member
I don't think we can generalise into Western versus Eastern so easily and hope our argument holds good. One is born like a blank slate (tabla rasa) and one must learn Taoism (or Buddhism,Vedanta) in the same way one learns to speak, one is not born knowing anything nor being able to distinguish the overlap of philosophical thoughts.

I would agree in that there is a risk of splicing or pollution with mixing ideas. But this is not due to geographical location. In my opinion the differences become clear with further study and understanding, albeit slower if those around you do not think similarly. I agree that we could be lead astray, but I put the blame on the student and their teacher (caveat emptor) not on race or geographical factors. :)
 

Wessexman

Member
Continued:

That said it is extremely hard to become a Taoist anyway, as Herr Heinrich notes its religious practices are bound up with Chinese culture and really one would have to enter this culture to truly be meaningfully initiated into Taoism. This is a very daunting and hard task for almost all. Becoming a Taoist is not like becoming a Christian or Muslim or Buddhist.

In conclusion I do think you could easily be led astray when reading Western works on Taoism(I mean even many of the introductions to my copies of Platonic dialogues are dubious and aim to show Plato as if he were a post-Enlightenment thinker.). I do however recommend Jean. C. Cooper's work on Taoism, including her illustrated Introduction.

I don't think we can generalise into Western versus Eastern so easily and hope our argument holds good. One is born like a blank slate (tabla rasa) and one must learn Taoism (or Buddhism,Vedanta) in the same way one learns to speak, one is not born knowing anything nor being able to distinguish the overlap of philosophical thoughts.

I would agree in that there is a risk of splicing or pollution with mixing ideas. But this is not due to geographical location. In my opinion the differences become clear with further study and understanding, albeit slower if those around you do not think similarly. I agree that we could be lead astray, but I put the blame on the student and their teacher (caveat emptor) not on race or geographical factors. :)
Most of the West, particularly new age and liberal types but also monotheistic exclusivists(though they're less important in this discussion.). do frequently misunderstand traditional Taoism and Buddhism.

But you are right it is not simply East versus West. The spiritual malaise that has crept over the West in the last 500 years has long ago begun to spread to the East.

Each religion, both the exoteric outer layers and the esoteric core, speaks in a particular language to put it metaphorically. So again it is not a matter simply of East and West, a Christian would have great trouble understanding Islam or Judaism, however there is a difference of degrees and certainly the Westerner is going to find it harder to understand a Taoist or Buddhist than a Muslim or even a Hindu. Westerners are also held back by the anti-spiritual, anti-traditional and anti-contemplative mindset of the modern West. It is not though impossible for a Westerner to understand Taoism but it takes a lot of study and not just of the TaoTeChing in isolation and certainly not with the help of most Western expositions of the Taoism.

I'd say one's knowledge at birth is on two different levels. On one it is limited but on the other even a babe has an Intellect, the eye of the heart or Dharmic Bodhi. It is objective and for that reason necessarily absolute and capable of grasping the absolute, though in a supra-rational way, well beyond the full purview of human language or discursive thought. This is part of what is meant in Taoism by the idea of the microcosm in the individual reflecting the macrocosm. At one level knowledge is one, there is only one Truth, though no human language, mental conception or discursive thought process could ever completely reveal it, only the eye of the heart can do that. This is part of what Laozu and the Taoist master meant when they commented on the limits and relativity of language to express wisdom.

To be honest the best preparation to understanding Taoism that I could advise would be in rediscovering something of the spiritual, symbolic and contemplative nature of traditional societies animated by healthy religious faiths. This is something the modern West has almost lost. You will discover more about Taoism in the Cappadocian fathers than in most modern Western references. Modern authors who can help orientate one to something like the thinking needed to really understand the Eastern traditions though include Frithjof Schuon, Dr. Seyyed Nasr, Henry Corbin, Marco Pallis and perhaps some of the more esoteric passages of C.S Lewis. As I said Jean. C. Cooper is the best modern author specifically on Taoism that I know of.
 
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Onkara

Well-Known Member
Hello Wessexman
This is interesting.
Does the "eye of the heart" differ and if it does differ in what way?

My perspective is that this "eye of the heart" does not differ and it is at this point that we start making comparisons between Taoism, Buddhism and Vedanta. It is also at this point that the splicing begins, as the student gathers ideas in order to explain the world around them in perspective to the universal "eye of the heart".

It prompts the question: Once one knows that eye of the heart, is there any need to debate all the ideas and concepts that lead one there?
 

Wessexman

Member
In traditional metaphysical schools like Platonism or Vedanta the "eye of the heart" or the Intellect or Bodhi ultimately is absolute, partaking of awareness itself. It therefore would not differ. What's more it is seen as the real source of knowledge, to which discursive thought or reason is but a secondary tool. This is how the great, Western, classical wisdom tradition that came down from Mesopotamia, the Levant and Egypt to the mystery cults of ancient Greece, to Parmenides, Pythagoras and Plato considered philosophy. It is only moderns and a few later Graeco-Romans who ever saw philosophy as simply the use of discursive thought.

This is what marks our age of spiritual decline, what the Hindu's call the Kali-yuga, the fact that relatively few have their true eye open. This decline was even apparent in ancient Greece, with the rise of rationalist philosophy. Even the great Platonist Aristotle, though he used the Intellect as the true basis of his philosophy had to reason about Universals which Plato could simply "see".

Interestingly, if somewhat controversially, some modern Platonic thinkers like Frithjof Schuon have posited that revelations or genuine, divine-sent religious traditions are a collective version of this individual Intellect. They manifest a particular, valid, if not exhaustive perspective on the divine which has within itself the materials to form an effective, guiding faith for a particular culture and which speak in the language of that culture. Their purpose being the spiritual guidance and development of the individuals and the societies to which they speak, supporting and guiding the individual Intellect.

If this perspective is correct then there is a need to debate these ideas and concepts, although perhaps debate is not the right word. The point is that even mystics and esoterics require the support of one of these collective Intellections or organised religions to support their development and of course average believers certainly require this. In order for the religion to do its job it needs to be relatively self-contained, so there is a necessity not to try and mix and match faiths at this level. There is also a need for one to follow a particular religion, not treat the disciplines and rituals of the faith as if they didn't matter and certainly not try and mix and match aspects of different faiths. Western Taoism fails on many of these fronts, indeed it often mistakenly attacks "religious" Taoism or tries to disconnect this from "philosophical" Taoism. It is only at the transcendental level that one can talk of moving past the forms of particular faiths. The Shamanic faiths, from which Taoism came, due to certain internal qualities have been better at mixing on the outer level though, hence China and Japan have their somewhat mixed religions, such possibilities are not existent though in general, one cannot mix say Christianity and Islam.

Even if you reject this perspective it still should be obvious that to truly open one's heart, to truly remember, it takes a lot of spiritual effort and development for most people. Indeed for most it is the product of many lifetimes as the Eastern faiths remind us. Being human we usually require structure and support and this is what is granted to us by the individual religions. However in order to utilise a religion it needs to be able to speak to us in its own language, so it can form an organic and broad basis to support its society in the myriad ways in which it is required to. Trying to introduce parts of another faith, which speaks a different language(metaphorically I mean.) of course is unlikely to help.

In either case following a particular religious tradition, including its rituals, doctrines and ethics is usually helpful, if not basically essential. Again there is no sort of conception of this in much that passes for Western Taoism.
 
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Onkara

Well-Known Member
Very good. That is probably the most comprehensive explanation I have read and I agree.

How can we be sure that what is referred to as Western Taoism is in fact inaccurate unless further investigation is undertaking by students. The further investigation, will, be required because the student is not yet satisfied with the truth.

At first glance the last statment may seem to overlook individual error. Individual error in this case would be to subscribe to "Western Taoism" which "often mistakenly attacks "religious" Taoism or tries to disconnect this from "philosophical" Taoism."

However truth, in my opinion, is not flexible to error and will not stand with error. Errors in understanding will fail scrutiny by their very nature that they are not truth.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
I don't think we can generalise into Western versus Eastern so easily and hope our argument holds good. One is born like a blank slate (tabla rasa) and one must learn Taoism (or Buddhism,Vedanta) in the same way one learns to speak, one is not born knowing anything nor being able to distinguish the overlap of philosophical thoughts.

I would agree in that there is a risk of splicing or pollution with mixing ideas. But this is not due to geographical location. In my opinion the differences become clear with further study and understanding, albeit slower if those around you do not think similarly. I agree that we could be lead astray, but I put the blame on the student and their teacher (caveat emptor) not on race or geographical factors. :)

Dear onkarah

I wish to clear some misunderuntandings that might have accrued from our previous interactions in another forum.

Though relative, when in respect of the unlimited Self, yet the sectors such as the east and the west etc. will have some practical consequences, which are not arbitrary, but are born out of some prior reasons that makes a soul take up a body in a particular location or a culture. I am speaking of karma and one's level (but I am not speaking of higher and lower). The world is a composition of gunas and the substratum appears different to different minds made of different guna compositions. And we know that guna-karma decides how the soul manifests and what it gets. I re-iterate that though the guna-karma is realtive yet it has practical significance, while we are in its realm.

The teaching of Tao or of Vedanta cannot be divorced from the so-called rituals taught within them. Hinduism believes that a name such as 'apple' is not merely a name, divorced from all that we associate with appleness. So, we say that it is up to each soul's teacher to guide an individual through the correct path. At the pinnacle, however, the teacher is one's Self. But, Hinduism does place a premium on the teacher. I find Wessexman's post on the subject good.

I agree that the mahat -- the universal mind, is born as a blank state -- like very clear tranquil reflecting water. But on being invidualised, by being covered with different amounts and kinds of muck, each individual gets back a different reflection. And thus the process of washing of the muck may vary. Thus, in summary, i marginally differ from the view that 'One is born like a blank slate ----'.In this again, however, the teacher is the ultimate guide.

Warmest regards

Om
 
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Onkara

Well-Known Member
Thank you Atanu :)
You are absolutely right, regarding Karma. I am not clear if karma exists in Taoism?

If not then what fills that explanation in Taoism, I wonder?
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Thank you Atanu :)
You are absolutely right, regarding Karma. I am not clear if karma exists in Taoism?

If not then what fills that explanation in Taoism, I wonder?

Thank you Onkarah

I thought that Tao is synonymous with karma - the right way, of flowing with the Tao. I also thought that the Tao is not vocal about Brahman, which is karma-less and flow-less. But of course, i am not an expert.

Om
 

Wessexman

Member
It has been said, with some truth, that in traditional Chinese religion Taoism is its esoteric side and Confucianism its exoteric side. This is something Western Taoists generally ignore as well.

The author I recommened, Jean Cooper, described Taoism eloquently when she says "Taoism is a purely metaphysical and mystical religion. Other religions have their mystical aspects; Taoism is mysticism." She goes on to describe the Tao by saying "Not only are all forms latent in the Tao, but all forms and everything that exists has Tao, a "way" to fulfill.". There is then a rough equivalent the Tao or the Tao that is unseen, or at least part of it, to Nirguna Brahman.

The important thing to realise is that the original Taoists were not the ancient Chinese version of Sophists or post-modernists or new-agers, they weren't playing words games. They were deeply spiritual people with a real message. They also weren't "philosophical" in the way in which we use that word today to denote the systematisation of knowledge based on discursive thought alone, they were metaphysical and mystical and were philosophers only in the way Pythagoras, Plato or Plotinus were. Though it is certainly true the TaoTeChing is purely metaphysical and not concerned with religion as such, it would be wrong to conclude the early masters would have objected to "religious" Taoism. Indeed as explained the latter religions are but a universalising and playing out of the original Taoist message so all can gain and not just mystics.
 

angrymoose

angrymoose
Is the western Tao misconstrued and butchered?

Eastern Taoist traditions are many. Each tradition likely considers the other traditions "butchered"?

Obviously, there is more than one "western Taoism".

What you have to ask is, is it useful. Does it make sense to you and connect to your experience?

It seems that the Eastern Taoism has traditional religious practices. Ritual, ceremony, and superstition are things that I do not understand, nor believe in.

Then don't follow them?

The Western Taoism (from what I've read and seen) does not seem to possess this religious aspect. Is this because it has been altered and morphed out of it's original form? Or is western Tao still very much Tao? I just do not want to start reading about Tao, and find out that these readings or translations have been wrongly interpreted by westerners. Are my concerns out of place? Should I not be worried at all?

Has it morphed? Sure. (And so have traditions in the east of which I'm no expert.)

I don't know which Eastern traditions are followed in the west. There is more than one, even if you go to the East.

Lao Tzu (or whoever wrote his book) may not have followed most of these traditions.

But the question is, what works for you.

Tai Chi is part of a lot of western Taoist traditions.

If you want to learn about the ancient traditions, it might be tricky to do so. I think, its easier to just read the few books that are popular and get from them what you can.
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friends,

One again find that personal understanding might provide few pointers towards that what is TRUTH /TAO / Brahman.
They are all labels for an understanding and am sure all readers of this dir understands that.
If labels are understood then it is also understood that TRUTH remains same for everyone which is mentioned similarly in Tao Te Ching or sanatan dharma scriptures on BRAHMAN.
Meditators have realised TRUTH and have written what existence got expressed through those vessels [meditators] and some in written form which is labelled *scriptures*.
Similarly all words we humans use are labels for an understanding and words like *EAST/ west* too are labels for an understanding and so should not be taken literally or as differentiating.
Lao Tsu has given an understanding of TAO and how to live harmoniously with existence and he never said it is a practice which must be followed this way or that or people of this region are different and so practice should be different.
It is that each individual wherever they are must understand and apply the understanding to live harmoniously after all existence is ONE for all forms or no-forms .
Suggest that we should not harp on eastern/western or taoism/buddhism/sanatan dharma/etc/
They are all pointers to the same truth for understanding everyone has used different labels or words for understanding according to the then present population.
Today it is a globalised world and so we must understand that we are all humans born in different places due to past karma BUT we also know and understand that by living HERE-NOW we can transcend KARMA and merge by living harmoniously with existence.

Love & rgds
 

Alceste

Vagabond
On my spiritual journey I have come across Tao and I am pulled into it, because it speaks very clearly to me. It seems to all make sense to me. But I have a few concerns. Is the western Tao misconstrued and butchered? It seems that the Eastern Taoism has traditional religious practices. Ritual, ceremony, and superstition are things that I do not understand, nor believe in. The Western Taoism (from what I've read and seen) does not seem to possess this religious aspect. Is this because it has been altered and morphed out of it's original form? Or is western Tao still very much Tao? I just do not want to start reading about Tao, and find out that these readings or translations have been wrongly interpreted by westerners. Are my concerns out of place? Should I not be worried at all?

Tao is immediately butchered the moment we attempt to discuss it, wherever we come from. The Tao Te Ching makes that clear in the very first verse.

Generally speaking, Westerners - enamored as we are of making noise and thinking about things - tend to spend a lot of time reading books about Tao and going on and on about it. Easterners tend to spend a lot of time meditating, contemplating and practicing taoist art forms (internal martial arts like tai chi or chi kung, calligraphy, acupuncture, meditation).

There are also various religious rituals associated with some sects of Taoism in China, but not all.

I recommend Deng Ming Dao's Scholar Warrior or 365 Tao.
 

Herr Heinrich

Student of Mythology
Tao is immediately butchered the moment we attempt to discuss it, wherever we come from. The Tao Te Ching makes that clear in the very first verse.

Generally speaking, Westerners - enamored as we are of making noise and thinking about things - tend to spend a lot of time reading books about Tao and going on and on about it. Easterners tend to spend a lot of time meditating, contemplating and practicing taoist art forms (internal martial arts like tai chi or chi kung, calligraphy, acupuncture, meditation).

There are also various religious rituals associated with some sects of Taoism in China, but not all.

I recommend Deng Ming Dao's Scholar Warrior or 365 Tao.


Oooo! I second the recommendation for Scholar Warrior. It is a very nice book that contains a lot of good information.
 
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