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Was Muhammad a good man?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by kassault37, Apr 18, 2013.

?
  1. He was a great man and those who insult him must be punished!

    60 vote(s)
    27.9%
  2. He was a great man, but people are free to insult him

    47 vote(s)
    21.9%
  3. He was not a good man, but we should respect him because I believe in respecting other religions

    23 vote(s)
    10.7%
  4. He was a terrible man and we should condemn his awful actions!

    85 vote(s)
    39.5%
  1. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    FOuad this drive by commentary is beneath you especially since you did not read enough to notice I included all their acts of violence in my claims. I spent quite a few lines commenting on them. We do not believe they were sinless and so have no problem, you do claim it and so it is a problem for you on many levels and in many ways.
     
  2. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    Why do you say this? The Bible records many things that happened that God was not happy about. God made one women for one man from the very start. Abrahams womanizing has cost the world quite enough problems. God tolerated divorce and slavery but hates them both, polygamy is either this case or an outright sin punished by God in the Bible.
     
  3. F0uad

    F0uad Well-Known Member

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    Nor did we say that Mohammed(saws) was sinless but those wars and things you mentioned have a context so its pretty easy to quote a website while you haven't researched a single quotation that you posted.
     
  4. WyattDerp

    WyattDerp Active Member

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    Didn't see anyone correct that, either, so..
     
  5. dynavert2012

    dynavert2012 Active Member

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    Just to know how great was Mohamed from some orientalists writings
    [youtube]3NDiBna86Kc[/youtube]
    Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) character.mp4 - YouTube

    if you want to know about prophet Mohamed just read his biography and don't let other form your opinion on behalf of you
     
  6. YmirGF

    YmirGF Bodhisattva

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    I've already read several biographies on your prophet. But I do agree, people should learn about this man and what he taught. What he taught wasn't exactly good news for non-Muslims.

    That said it is always amusing how many Muslims will shake their fists at the very same orientalists when they were highly critical of Islam and Muhammad, but don't mind cherry-picking the good things they had to say.
     
    #66 YmirGF, Apr 19, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2013
  7. dynavert2012

    dynavert2012 Active Member

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    do you remember the authors?
    [/QUOTE]
    What he taught wasn't exactly good news for non-Muslims.[/QUOTE]

    for example?
     
  8. Kerr

    Kerr Well-Known Member

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    I didnt vote either. Dont know enough about Muhammad to do so. Nor do I see a point to call him an evil and horrible man (assuming he was), mainly because he lived over 1000 years ago.
     
    #68 Kerr, Apr 19, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2013
  9. FearGod

    FearGod Freedom Of Mind

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    Yes the prophet PBUH was a fighter
    Yes the prophet PBUH was a hero
    Yes the prophet PBUH was brave

    He fought the theives
    He fought the oppressors
    He fought the barbarians
    He fought the ********

    Who is fighting him now while he is absent,the cowards is fighting him.
    Who is fighting him now,the theives in this world
    Who is fighting him now,the oppressors in this world
    Who is fighting him now,the barbarians in this world
    Who is fighting him now,the ******** in this world

    They wanted the theif to be free to steal the poor,because they are theives.
    They wanted the murderer to be free,because they are murderers
    They wanted the ******** to control poor people,because they are ********
    They wanted the barbarians to be free in order for the stronger to kill the weaker,because they are the barbarians.

    That is what they wanted,a world with atheism,the rich,the oppressors and the barbarians to control this world.

    Islamophia,yes you have to fight ISLAM,because the thieves,barbarians and oppressors wanted to keep on fooling people to steal their wealth and employ women as prostitutes or models and if respected job then with low wages than men.


    The story of Heroes
    [youtube]sw8fHo24U3E[/youtube]
    THE BEST ROLE MODEL - MUHAMMAD [P.B.U.H]
     
    #69 FearGod, Apr 19, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2013
  10. Kerr

    Kerr Well-Known Member

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    An off topic comment, but that has nothing to do with atheism :p. I for one dont want a world ruled by social darwinism and tyranny, and I am an atheist.
     
  11. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    if he is sinless, why did he die?

    A sinless man has no need to die, Why?

    Because it is sin that kills mankind.
     
  12. dynavert2012

    dynavert2012 Active Member

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    don't you believe that Jesus died? was he sinful?
     
  13. dyanaprajna2011

    dyanaprajna2011 Dharmapala

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    You're looking at it like it's an 'either/or' dichotomy. I don't think it's quite so simplistic. It's quite possible, under the current topic, that the pagans had figured some things out for themselves, through whatever means.

    I'd say I agree, but it would be obvious that my reason for doing so would be considered biased.

    Many would say that many of the myths of the Egyptians were incorporated into Christianity. While this may or may not be true, I think there is a better example, and that's the myths of Mithras. Another I would say would be Apollonius of Tyana.

    That's highly debatable, and I'm sure there's already threads here on this topic.

    Actually, I said I didn't want to dredge up things that you probably have already looked into, not that I couldn't, so I said pretty much this:

    Agreed.
     
  14. Maija

    Maija Active Member

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    Sorry, don't have time to put this into my own words, rushing to get ready for work (TGIF...or TAIF...jk it's ALL the same :D) These words say it best:

    Again, sorry for the long quotation, but this says it better than I could and it's relevant and can clear up some things.
     
  15. F0uad

    F0uad Well-Known Member

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    I don't belief prophets are sinless.. Mohammed(saws) himself asked for forgiveness each day.
     
  16. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    You may not but the claim that all prophets are sinless is a very common Islamic belief at least among the ones I have talked to. This is the actual statement that my claim was in response to.
    So the person I was talking to believed it even if you do not.

    Prove that I did not look into the context for the data I posted or retract the statement that I did not. These assumptions are getting to be an epidemic. I did track down the secular historical context to about half of them and was already familiar with about 1/4 more.
     
  17. Aquitaine

    Aquitaine Well-Known Member

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    Just the fact that he married a 6 year old and had like 11 wives leads me to believe he wasn't a decent character - especially since he was supposed to be some "Holy" man close to "God".

    For an average Man at that time, in that area, this stuff wasn't really out of the ordinary. But for someone who clams divine inspiration, connection and authority to an apparently mercifull and moral God is something entirely different. As a Prophet, he should've known better.
     
  18. YmirGF

    YmirGF Bodhisattva

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    One thing about Muhammad and the early period of his, for lack of a better word, "mission", is that it is indisputable that he used violence to further that mission. This is in stark contrast to people like Martin Luther King and Ghandi. Muslims will always tell us that that combative stance was purely defensive, and in a specific sense, it often was, however this idea blithely ignores that it was Muhammad's very mission that brought the persecution down on him. He had rattled a lot of people's cages for years and eventually they decided that they had to act to silence him. To their great credit the people of Mecca were extremely tolerant of the strange fellow in their midst for quite a long time. That he felt a need to fight them "defensively", when they decided that enough was enough is an interesting spin on the reality. In a very limited sense it is true, but it is stretching the truth, just a tad.


    In a very real way, it is like the followers of David Koresh claiming that they fought a "defensive" battle against the FBI who raided their Wako, Tx compound. In some respects, that battle was defensive, from their viewpoint, but saying so ignores the reasons behind why the FBI moved against the Branch Dividians.
     
    #78 YmirGF, Apr 19, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2013
  19. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    First let’s make sure we understand that the claims "There are many Gods" and the claim "there is only one God" Is about the most mutually exclusive claims as possible. It is also irrational to think a single God interested in people coming to know the truth and him are going to reward people if they are falsely following a bunch of non existent God's. That is like rewarding your children for choosing other parents. Beyond this there is no proof even theoretically available for what you claim. We must decide which explanation makes the most sense.


    1. Allah despite the fact he is a severe disciplinarian when it comes to admission he and he alone is God, would still reward people fallowing an entire cast of false God's by giving them true worship information. If so then why did Muhammad tear up all the idols to these same God’s? No Allah fiercely hates polytheism or so Muhammad says.
    2. Muhammad was a mere man who invented a religion to unite bands of independent Arabian tribes as the Jews were united. He did so by boring extensively from existing rituals and beliefs that have nothing to do with any actual real God or Gods.
    No 1 is irrational, inconsistent, and just plain silly.
    No 2 is perfectly satisfactory and consistent with thousands of facts.
    As you as you arrive at the correct answer the genetics of how you went about that is irrelevant. The Church fathers themselves would tell you their writings were faulty just as they were. I am sure much of it was right and it is a valuable source for historical events of the early Church but you were criticizing God and the Bible and their writing have nothing to do with that.
    I will use Mithras as an example.

    Mithraism was virtually non-existent in the Roman world until after the Gospels were written. It shows up in the Historical record in the 2nd and 3rd century AD. The Jewish people hated the Romans, the one thing they would never have ever done is borrow their religion. It is a self defeating argument. It is far more logical that these detail at least were borrowed from Christianity not the other way around and this is true for many of these parallelism claims.

    He is said to be called the son of God just as Christ is.
    False: He is the sun God not the Son of God. The actual words read: Greek: Huios(Son) and Helios(Sun). It is easy to see how ignorant people reading languages they can barely understand and with an agenda invented this claim.

    Both are said to claim to have been born on Dec 25th.
    False: Dec 25th is not a date the Bible ever records. It is something the Catholic Church invented hundreds of years later to make it easy for PAGANS to cross over. You have identified a genuine fault with Catholicism but not God, the Bible, nor Christ and it is not to hard to find a fault with the Church.

    Mythras was virgin born.
    False he was born from a rock in a cave. In fact the few that practiced the religion usually worshipped in caves because of this.
    Mithraic Studies, Mithras, “wearing his Phrygian cap, issues forth from the rocky mass. As yet only his bare torso is visible. In each hand he raises aloft a lighted torch and, as an unusual detail, red flames shoot out all around him from the petra genetrix.” Franz Cumon, “The Dura Mithraeum” in John R. Hinnells (ed.), Mithraic Studies: Proceedings of the First International Congress of Mithraic Studies (Manchester University Press, 1975), 173.

    He had twelve apostles.
    False. There is no evidence known of this.

    Was crucified and resurrected as Christ was.
    False. The belief was he finished his work and never died. He was taken into heaven in a chariot without any resurrection.

    The Bible addresses this issue specifically:
    For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For when he received honor and glory from God the Father, and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,” we ourselves heard this very voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain.(2 Peter 1:16-18 ESV)

    I can keep going with Mithras but there is little point and the rest are just as problematic or even worse.
    That is not really important in this context. This is the context for Christianity and must be evaluated within that context. To not do so is like what many scholars do in modern times. First assume no God exists and then review scripture. Whether you agree or people debate it or not the context of Christianity is that it is a continuation of Judaism under the covenant of grace. If you could prove it wasn't then what people think about it might make a difference. I must evaluate claims within the context they are made. I examine Muhammad in the context of the claim of his being a prophet of God. I do not evaluate him as being an astronaut writing a continuation of Hinduism texts.
    Well look at it from my view point. Someone says that X is wrong. I disagree and so say bring forth the evidence and they refuse. IMO the original claim does not stand. I could say Muhammad was not of God and end it there but that is not productive. I must show that to be true even though the burden of proof is own Islam.
     
  20. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    He died for our sins not his. If you dissagree then post the evidence for his sins.
     
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