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Was Muhammad a good man?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by kassault37, Apr 18, 2013.

?
  1. He was a great man and those who insult him must be punished!

    60 vote(s)
    27.9%
  2. He was a great man, but people are free to insult him

    47 vote(s)
    21.9%
  3. He was not a good man, but we should respect him because I believe in respecting other religions

    23 vote(s)
    10.7%
  4. He was a terrible man and we should condemn his awful actions!

    85 vote(s)
    39.5%
  1. kassault37

    kassault37 Member

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    Let's put aside all the wars and the bloody battles, the ones that forced my ancestors to convert to Islam. Let's put all that aside, let's picture an old man asking his best friend if he could have his permission to marry his 6 year old daughter. His friend agrees. The man then visits his best friend’s house and speaks with the 6 year old daughter. Her parents watch as the he proposes marriage to the child. He is serious; he wants to marry the little girl and is asking for her consent. The little child says nothing; she only stares at him in silence.

    The Islamic source materials state that Muhammad proposed marriage to Aisha when she was 6. He assumed her silence constituted her consent. Some 2 to 3 years later, just after he had fled to Medina, he consummated his marriage with her. He was 52 and she was 9. This occurred prior to Aisha’s first menses and by Islam’s legal definition Aisha was still considered a child. Islam teaches that a child enters adulthood at the beginning of puberty. (This is scientifically inaccurate, the onset of puberty does not equal adulthood).

    The bottom line is Muhammad, the creator of Islam, revered by his followers, had sex with a child! Worse, Muhammad's action and teachings on marriage established an Islamic precedent and Islamic law allows female children to be married off and engaged in sex provided they are able to handle a man’s penis (Quran 65:4). This has lead to physical, and psychological damage to many children.

    Please, I ask you kindly, as intelligent people, explain to me HOW and WHY do you revere Muhammad as a good man?
     
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  2. dyanaprajna2011

    dyanaprajna2011 Dharmapala

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    For the moment, I'll focus only on your main concern, we can discuss other aspects of Mohammed later on.

    Not all sources agree on the age of Aisha when she was married to and consummated with Mohammed. Some list her age as nine at marriage, and consummation at twelve. At the time, and location, this was common practice. Mary was around the same age when she was married to Joseph. While we, in today's society, find this to be reprehensible, it was the common practice back then, and, to some extent, has been retained.

    I agree that it should not be done, but our perceptions today don't exactly equal that of those times. We know more now about psychology and anatomy to know that such a thing is not good for the well-being of the child. But regardless, it was common back then: this doesn't condone the practice, but it does explain it.
     
  3. WyattDerp

    WyattDerp Active Member

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    Yeah. It's kinda like blaming ancient greek philosophers for talking about love and freedom and democracy, and not meaning women or slaves.


    At worst you could say he wasn't that much better than the other guys of his time in this respect, but so what..as a non-Muslim I just can't care. If I saw a man in my vicinity do something similar today, I would object, and it wouldn't really matter if they did it because they're Muslim or whatever. For example, even though Jesus did NOT marry a kid, the Catholic Church wasn't exactly heroic in their reaction to child abuse, were they. I don't care about what role models people claim to have. That's all mostly bogus anyway, people have themselves as role models and rationalize the rest around it as they see fit. 10 different people will see 10 different things in the same role model. There might be exceptions, but they're just that, exceptions.

    Mohammed is first and foremost a dead man. I don't even care to judge Thatcher now that she's dead; I might care about the policies, and could criticize the living who argue for them, for that. But otherwise my brain just doesn't work that way, that I could "insult" someone who is dead. I could stand at their grave and make a fool out of myself, but it has nothing to do with them. People should be free to do that though, and I wish others would simply see it for what it is. Especially since no actual physical remains are desecrated, some maturity would be neat... killing people over cartoons for me is much worse than marrying a 6 year old 1400 years ago. I have nothing to insult Mohammed for, but being blackmailed not to doesn't sit well with me either, just out of principle. Respect cannot be demanded, it flows naturally.
     
  4. kassault37

    kassault37 Member

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    Well I am glad people are willing to admit that was a common practice at the time, but that would mean everything in religion only relates to its time! Why is it still in use in the modern world!

    My poor grandmather was married at the age of 11, while my grandfather was well in his 30s! It's disguting, how people still get their morals from religion when we have much better tools that we can use!
     
  5. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    So your argument is basically:
    "It is disgusting! who agrees with me?"
     
  6. muizz99

    muizz99 Sunni Muslim

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    Muhammad is not just a good man. He is a prophet. And all of the prophets are sinless. Muhammad has 99 beautiful names.
     
  7. muizz99

    muizz99 Sunni Muslim

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    And god is the creator of islam. Not muhammad. What if I say, St. Paul created Christianity? U will be glad to hear that?
     
  8. WyattDerp

    WyattDerp Active Member

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    What does Christianity have to do with any of this, other than being a chip on your shoulder?
     
  9. kassault37

    kassault37 Member

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    My argument is that we should all look at reality and not let others fool us. Basically marrying 4 woman at the same time and marrying a child is wrong! We can't just say respect their beliefs, it's wrong and it's awful! I think it's time to make this distinction. We can't just respect everything because it's someone's beliefs!

     
  10. kassault37

    kassault37 Member

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    Paul did write most of the Bible, not Jesus

     
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  11. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    Seems youa re merely confirming that your argument is merely:
    "It is disgusting! who agrees with me?"
    Though now you are adding "it is wrong!" and "it's awful!" without anything other than your personal story in support...
     
  12. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    Source please.
     
  13. kassault37

    kassault37 Member

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    You're kidding right?
    The entire bible was written after Christ, in fact many year after, by different people (ie. Mark, John, Luke), all the gospels, Paul just happened to write the majoirty of it when he was addressing different groups (ex. The people of Corinth, hence the book of Corinthians)

    You're asking for a source, okay sure, that's like asking for a source that says water puts out fire. Here are a few, amongst many sources including every minister I've ever spoke to:

    Relevant Bible Teaching » Overview of the Bible

    Hidden Mysteries

    Who wrote the Gospels in the New Testament - Matthew, Mark, Luke and John?


     
  14. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    I am asking for your source of your claim that Paul wrote the whole Bible.
    I am not doing your homework for you.

    And in fact your last link completely denies your claim that Paul wrote the Bible

    What is your source for your claim that Paul wrote the Bible?
     
    #14 Mestemia, Apr 18, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2013
  15. savagewind

    savagewind Something, not nothing
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    New here?

    I do have a thought about the original post. I did not know that about the prophet. I wonder if he was a prophet before the marriage? If yes, then why did God Allah not say to him it is wrong to have sex with a child, I wonder? I think it has always been wrong from the beginning of Time. So why do people do it?
     
  16. kassault37

    kassault37 Member

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    Please stop misquoting what I said, I did NOT say that Paul wrote the whole bible, I said he wrote most of it. This is a fact, you asked for sources and gave them to you, there are thousands more if you want to read them, or just go speak to Christian scholars or a minister at a church, that's one of the things Christans agree on.


     
  17. Kilgore Trout

    Kilgore Trout Misanthropic Humanist

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    He was a man, like any other. I'm sure he did some good things, and some bad things, like all of us. I doubt the real person has much in common with the myth, like all mythologized people and things.
     
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  18. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    Is that why he even claimed he had to pray for forgivness 70 times a day?
     
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  19. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    If God had created Islam why did he have to adopt pagan practices popular in Arabia immediately before Muhammad’s time? Why are well known heretical and gnostic stories in the Quran that were known to be invented by groups that were kicked out of Israel for blasphemy and had migrated to Arabia? Why is every encounter with Gabriel in the Bible a calming and joyful one where Gabriel immediately identifies himself and says do not fear, but in Islam he squeezed Muhammad until he feared for his life, and created not calmed his fear?


    In receiving the Qur’an, the Islamic tradition tells us that Muhammad used to go into convulsions similar to epileptic seizures, break out in cold sweat, and his mouth used to foam. This indicates that Muhammad was either afflicted with epilepsy or another neurological illness, or he was demon possessed. In fact, Jesus exorcized demons that had tormented the possessed persons in this very same way: "Suddenly a man from the multitude cried out, saying, "Teacher, I implore You, look on my son, for he is my only child. And behold, a spirit seizes him, and he suddenly cries out; it convulses him so that he foams at the mouth; and it departs from him with great difficulty, bruising him. So I implored Your disciples to cast it out, but they could not." Then Jesus answered and said, "O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you and bear with you? Bring your son here." And as he was still coming, the demon threw him down and convulsed him. Then Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, healed the child, and gave him back to his father. And they were all amazed at the majesty of God …" (Luke 9: 38-43). There are striking similarities between the symptoms that boy suffered from and what used to happen to Muhammad when he claimed divine revelation. Instead, was it a satanic inspiration all along?
    The Qur'an is not a miracle; linguistic, scientific and historical problems, contradictions, abrogation, and satanic inspiration in the Qur'an
    Even Muhammad initially thought he was possessed only later was he told "Oh no, you are actually a prophet". He could not even demonstrate his prophet hood by performing miracles as all previous prophets from God had even when directly challenged to do so.


    Let me list exactly what I would have done if I was Muhammad and wanted to spread a false religion.
    1. Link it with the Bible but because I have no firsthand knowledge of it I will include many mistakes.
    2. One that was noticed then I must claim the Bible is corrupt to cover up my mistakes.
    3. I would incorporate local tradition and legends but unit the scattered tribes under a single God the way the Jews were (mostly).
    4. I would make it a religion of recitation. I studied psychological warfare in the military. The best way to brainwash a person is to get them young, and force repetition.
    5. I would make rules but if inconvenient claim I could violate them.
    6. I would subdue opposition by force but claim it was defensive.
    7. I would kill who I wished but claim it was in God's service.
    8. I would have been peaceful when weak. I would have been violent when strong.
    9. I could not help but claim many things history does not bear out. Alexander for example.
    10. I would make sure it was me and me alone that was getting any revelation. There was no corroboration, no competition, and no stealing of my thunder that way.
    11. I would tell people what ever necessary to get their loyalty (Like the exalted cranes).
    12. When my mistakes were noticed and called out I would have new revelation fixing my early mess ups.
    13. I would claim it was pure Arabic but in ignorance stick words invented by other cultures in there that were only adopted by Arabians and then even use them wrong many times.
    14. I would refuse to do any miracles but when pressed cast about for one and say the Quran is it.
    15. The biggest by far is I would make salvation based on human effort and an unverifiable hope for forgiveness that can't be proven false until too late.

    The very last thing I would do is what the Bible does, mandate and offer spiritual contact with God as the introduction to the faith. I do not think this concept is appreciated by people enough.

    The Bible does what no liar should, offer proof to everyone upfront, the Quran does not.

    Muhammad fought over 60 battles, raided caravans, killed, cut off hands and feet and a thousand other things that Muslims perform the greatest intellectual gymnastics to dismiss. Is that consistent with God or is Christ's absolute record of perfection?
     
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  20. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

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    Actually he only wrote most of the NT.
     
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