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Was Jesus killed on the cross?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Yaqub, May 30, 2010.

  1. roundsquare

    roundsquare Member

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    Now you have quoted Psalm 118, and wrongly linked parts of it you desired to the Messiah, Jesus, not knowing that not all of Psalm 118 is about the Messiah. In Psalm 118 Jesus identifies himself as the stone which after the builders refused it became the head stone of the corner. Psalm 118 has a speaker who identifies himself as, I, in v. 5. Jesus doesnt identify himself with the speaker, he identifies himself with the chief corner stone mentioned by the speaker of the Psalm in v.22. Thus only Psalm 118:22 is uniquely about Jesus the Messiah.
     
    #81 roundsquare, Jun 2, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2010
  2. fallingblood

    fallingblood Agnostic Theist

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    The physical trauma he went through was the norm. The bleeding itself though was not the cause of death. It was asphyxiation. The purpose of the crucifixion was to cause as much pain for the longest time. 6 hours was not normal. That is why disbelief is even suggested in the Bible.

    The reason a body bleeds is because the heart is pumping and forcing blood through the veins. Without this, a body may bleed a little, but not profusely. Not in the way the Bible claims it happened.

    If he wasn't dead, it would help to heal him. The relevant passage is John 19:38-40. Also, just to mention, aloe and myrrh were not part of the Jewish burial custom, as John states.

    Slowing down of the heart, and slight breathing would pass off as dead.
    There have been people who have survived the crucifixion. We have one account, so it is possible for someone to be taken off the cross and survive.

    I'm not saying this is what happened; however, it would be plausible. As far as I'm concerned though is that he died on the cross, was kept on it, and was later eaten by dogs and birds. As in, he was never taken off the cross.
     
  3. roundsquare

    roundsquare Member

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    Lol. Are you serious, blood loss didnt cause death? 6 hours is a long time to be bleeding, Jesus body was tattered, and punctured, bits of his flesh hung everywhere. Infection coupled with blood loss, axphixiation and shock are quite enough to kill. You say many have survived a crucifixion, yet only provide one example. incredible. a man can die from a single gun shot wound, Jesus was subjected to severe scorching, the weight of a heavy wooden beam, nailing, and a spear in his side. The roman soldiers confirmed he died, they were so meticulous that they even pierced his side. They able to succesfuly confirm that the other two men were alive, if Jesus were to be alive, they would have figured it out, more especially since he was no ordinary case, the peace of Jerusalem depended on him dying, an incensed mob of Jews wanted him dead, see luke 23:19-23, and a party of these angry Jews were looking on from nearby therefore the soldiers had to have taken extra care in making sure that he was dead. The link i provided said blood runs from a major vein of a dead person, not seep or trickle, it runs.
     
    #83 roundsquare, Jun 2, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2010
  4. fallingblood

    fallingblood Agnostic Theist

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    The blood loss was minimal. The cause of death was asphyxiation.

    The fact that we have one example shows that it is a possibility. Also, the crucifixion of Jesus was nothing unique. It was done as was the common practice.

    Also, the crucifixion was something that was done outside of the town, as a warning. The Romans would have cared less about the angry mob. If they had tried anything, they would have been killed.

    More so, if they wanted to make sure he died, they would leave him on the cross, not take him off prematurely.
     
  5. tarasan

    tarasan Well-Known Member

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    dude it wasnt just the blood tehy pierced his side with a spear and water came out that shows that the lungs had colapsed, they then wrapped him in about a hundred pounds of cloth that would have suffocated him and then put him in a tomb for 3 days which would have reached sever temperatures which would have made him go into shock with his wounds, they then would have needed to have gotten him past the quards who if they failed in protecting the tomb would have been killed, especailly if they had been sleeping, I mean if he had survived from all that it would have been a miracle.
     
  6. DeitySlayer

    DeitySlayer President of Chindia

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    Who said he survived? There are no witness accounts of him following the Ressurection apart from those who were already his disciples.
     
  7. Yaqub

    Yaqub Member

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    I'm glad you agree, because Jesus said his ordeal would be a miracle, or more precisely, a sign, just like the Sign of Jonah. There is nothing miraculous about a man dying on a cross, but, surviving crucifixion and re-emerging after three days, that is definitely a miracle, very similar to Jonah's miracle.
     
  8. tarasan

    tarasan Well-Known Member

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    this isnt the arguement for the thread it was wether jesus died in the first place and for all intents and purposes he did, he died real good.....
     
  9. roundsquare

    roundsquare Member

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    Where is your evidence that the blood loss was minimul? Don't be silly, mate, Jesus had a thorn crown in his head, underwent a severe lashing that would have ripped him open, and a spear to his side, which severed a major vein causing major blood loss, had he been alive up to that point that would have served as the coup de grace. Whats more infection should not be overulled, it is a leading cause of death, and surgeons have to take extreme measures to fend of infections nowadays, Jesus came in contact with many germs as he passed through the germ infested Jerusalem streets. The romans would have caused an outcry had they attacked the angry mob, and why oh why would they risk disturbing the peace of Jerusalem when they could just so easily maintain peace and appease the jewish rabbinic council by making sure that Jesus died. you have no evidence that Jesus didnt die and have no reason to suggest that.
     
    #89 roundsquare, Jun 2, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2010
  10. DeitySlayer

    DeitySlayer President of Chindia

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    Ah. My bad. In that case, I do not contest that if Jesus was crucified according to how the Bible put it, he most certainly died.
     
  11. fallingblood

    fallingblood Agnostic Theist

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    First, I just want to say that I personally believe that he died on the cross. I believe he was on the cross longer than that Gospels state, and that his body, after he died, remained hanging on the cross, waiting to be eaten by wild dogs. That is my personal belief which is based on what normally happened with a crucifixion.

    I also don't believe that the incident with the lance ever happened. I think that it is logical to believe that blood would flow from a wound, and that is what the writer wrote, not truly knowing about the human body.

    Going to the idea of him escaping though, I recently read an article that they found a burial cave with a rear, somewhat secret, entrance. I read article after it was posted in support of the idea that Jesus could have gotten out of his burial tomb without being seen.

    As for the cloth, I don't recount that. Can you show me a verse?

    Again, I'm not saying that he survived the crucifixion. There can be an argument built that says that he did, but it is a weak argument, based on a lot of maybes, as seen in the argument that I've posted (which is based on the main argument that is used). It also requires one to flat out state the Bible is wrong, yet at the same time assume it is correct in other aspects that can't be really backed up historically.
     
  12. fallingblood

    fallingblood Agnostic Theist

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    The evidence is looking at crucifixions in a historical context. There was blood loss, but it was something someone could survive, and was minimal in the end.

    And no, the Romans wouldn't care if they caused an outcry. That would not have been the first time. There are records of the Romans massacring thousands of people at a single time.

    Also, they were not trying to save the peace and appease the Jewish Rabbinic Council (which never existed) by killing Jesus. They killed him because he was a criminal. They would have killed all of his followers as well if they deemed it necessary. And it would have been no problem.

    And again, there has been at least one recorded instance in which a victim of crucifixion survived, so it is theoretically possible.

    And I don't believe he survived the cross, I was simply pointing out that an argument could be made for the idea. I believe he died on the cross and remained hanging on the cross until his body was eaten by wild dogs, as was the norm. I also believed he didn't die in just 6 hours, but it was probably over a day. And finally, I believe he was crucified because he was a criminal in the eyes of Rome.
     
  13. fallingblood

    fallingblood Agnostic Theist

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    It would also be a miracle if he was resurrected from the dead after three days.
     
  14. Yaqub

    Yaqub Member

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    Of course being resurrected is also a supernatural miracle, but not one that resembles the miracle of Jonah. Jesus specifically said his sign would be like the Sign of Jonah, who was ALIVE for three days in the belly of the whale - a true miracle. The Sign of Jonah is narrated in all three of the synoptic gospels.
     
  15. roundsquare

    roundsquare Member

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    I have already discussed why the sign of Jonah doesnt mean that Jesus was alive in the tomb, to see my discussions on this hark back to my earlier posts. i raised some questions about it that are yet to be answered. when Jesus alluded to Jonahs fish ordeal, he didnt intend to convey the message that he would survive the crucifixion since elsewhere he said he would be killed, what infact Jesus was doing is, he was relating the time Jonah spent in the sea creatures stomach to the time he would spent in the tomb before emerging triumphantly on the third day. The sign he referred to was his resurrection from the dead on the 3rd day. if you dont begin to consider everything Jesus said about his fate and just focus on one passage you will end up accusing the gospels of contradicting each other. before crying contradiction! try to harmonise passages and when all else fails then you can cry contradiction!
     
    #95 roundsquare, Jun 3, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2010
  16. DeitySlayer

    DeitySlayer President of Chindia

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    I always find it quite funny when religions will metaphor-icalize and read between the lines and distort their own holy text in order to make it consistent, but claim that no other religion is allowed to do this and when they do it is 'cheating' and 'not the true message' of the 'opponents' holy text.
     
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  17. tarasan

    tarasan Well-Known Member

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    firstly with our twentieth century knowledge we know what that water out of th ewound ment, it means colapsed lungs, that is what we KNOW as twentieth century people. The Jew of that age would probably suspect that blood would flow out however it was water, and if jesus lungs had indeed colapsed we would expect to see water.

    here is the verse for the cloth,

    New International Version (©1984)
    as well as the burial cloth that had been around Jesus' head. The cloth was folded up by itself, separate from the linen. John 20:7

    your right it is a weak arguement and it is based on alot fo maybes :)

    If we look at what happened Biblically then there can be no doubt that he died, especailly with the evidence of the water comming from the body.
     
  18. tarasan

    tarasan Well-Known Member

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    when have we ever said that?

    and some parts of the bible are ment to be taken metaphoircally, like Ecclesiastes, Job etc,

    heck even near the beginning of our time saint Augustine was metaphoically looking at things such as ceation which he didnt need to look at in a such a sense.
     
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  19. roundsquare

    roundsquare Member

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    IF the Muslim keeps insisting that in line with Jonahs sign Jesus had to be alive in the tomb, then what do they make of John 3:14, where Jesus says that just as Moses lifted up the serpent on a pole he t00 must be lifted up,numbers 21:8-9, talking about his crucifixion. since the serpent that was lifted up was dead lifeless, should we then resolve that Jesus was dead before he was crucified? Ofcourse not, since Jesus was only referring to the way the serpent was lifted up, in the same way he was also just referring to the period of time Jonah spent in the sea creatures stomach.
     
    #99 roundsquare, Jun 3, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2010
  20. Shine_0f_sun

    Shine_0f_sun Member

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    I already did it!!! Jesus confirmed that Psalm 91 chapter was indeed speaking about him!!

    For the Scripture say, "He will order His angels to protect and guard you"[luke 4:10]

    He scripture where say? indeed Psalm 91

    "And they will hold you up with their hands so you wont even hurt your foot on a stone"[luke 4:11]


    Jesus responded, "The scripture ALSO SAY, you must not test the lord ur God"[Luke 4:12]

    How satan referred to psalm 91 regarding the protection of Jesus?

    How Jesus confirmed that Psalm 91 chapter was indeed speaking about him by saying "the scripture ALSO say"

    Why Jesus used there "ALSO"

    Example:
    If anyone tell me," Shine your Father says, do not drink alcohol"

    then if i reply him," My Father ALSO says do do eat Pork"

    This mean I dont wanna agree with my Father what says do not drink alcohol??

    No! No! This actual mean I am agree with both!!

    So here we see Jesus was accepting psalm 91 as being about him by saying "ALSO"


    Also the new testament, again, confirms that Psalm 91 is referring to Jesus christ.

    My question: if Psalm91 really do not referred to Jesus Christ then Psalm 91 referred to whom?? We see there have too much prophecy about upcoming messiah.

    You wanna tell psalm 91 chapter is an unfulfilled Prophecy?

    "God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should chang his mind, Does he speak and then not act?Does he promise and not fulfill?"[Numbers 23:19]

    Answer this question of God!


    My Response about matthew 16:2:

    Matthew 16:21 is clearly a doubtful verse!! Lets see few point:

    1st point: Jesus commanded to his disciples for buy a sword. Cause he was preparing for a fight to against struggle which meaning he was not ready for sacrifice (as Jesus said he dont like sacrifice in Matthew 9:13, Do you think Jesus said lie?!)
    and Also he dont wanna die.. So according to Luke 22:36, matthew obviously 16:21 is false..

    "He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag, and if you dont have a SWORD, sell your cloak and bue one SWORD"[Luke 22:36]

    My Question why Jesus commanded them to fight if he was ready for sacrifice and if he was sure about matthew 16:21??

    2nd point: Jesus prayed to God and he was crying cause he dont wanna die:

    "Saying, Father if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done"[Mark 22:42]

    note: This cup is "the cup of death"

    "Going a little farther, he feel with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will" [matthew 26:39]

    "During the days of Jesus life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he(God) was heard because of his reverent submission"[Hebrews 5:7]


    My Question if he was sure that he gonna die according to matthew 16:21-23 then why he prayed to God? Why he cried to God for help? We see God "Heard" his prayer. As before i already proved that "Heard" meaning God accepted His prayer..

    "..The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeti much.."[James 5:16]

    Jesus was a righteous man so his prayer obviouly strong...

    Jesus himself said:

    "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto u; for every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh finedeth, and to him who knocketh it shall opened. Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?"[Matthew 7:7-10]

    If all of Jesus prayer were accepted by God, including his prayer not to die on cross, how could he still die on the cross then?


    Lets see another important point:

    "The Lord upholds all those who fall and LIFTS UP ALL WHO ARE BOWED DOWN" [psalm 145:14]

    "The Lord gives sight to be blind,the LORD LIFTS UP THOSE WHO ARE BOWED DOWN, the Lord Loves the righteous"[Psalm 146:8]

    Jesus bowed down to God Almighty begging Him to save him from crucifixion read matthew 16:39

    Note: According to Islam God LIFTS UP Jesus!!

    "An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him"[Mark 22:43]

    My Question why angel strengthened Jesus after his prayer?Even an angel said Jesus "was Alive"

    "but didnt find Jesus body. They came and told us that they had seen a vision of angels, who said he was Alive" [Luke 24:23]

    your bible have "Was Alive" which meaning Jesus not died in cross!!

    God Almighty Saving His anointing King and saving those who take refuge in Him:

    "Now i know that THE LORD SAVING HIS ANOINTED KING. HE ANSWERS HIM FROM HIS HOLY HEAVEN"[Psalm 20:6]

    We come to know from Gospel that God answered Jesus by an angel from his Holy heaven

    "An Angel from heaven appeared to Jesus and strengthened him"[luke 22:43]

    "I Call to the Lord, who is worthy of praise, AND I AM SAVED FROM MY ENEMIES"[Psalm, 18:3]

    "O Lord, see how my enemies persecute me! have mercy and LIFT ME UP FROM THE GATES OF DEATH"[psalm, 9:13]

    ****This is interesting to know that king David was NEVER KILLED BY HIS ENEMIES****

    So this is very clear in bible that God saved and LIFTS UP Jesus
     
    #100 Shine_0f_sun, Jun 3, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2010
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